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DecadesofFutility 05-25-2013 08:08 AM

Holmgren Report Card
 
I was wondering about the job performance of Paul Holmgren?
I have my own opinions about the subject but I was thinking others might
want to post their opinions as well.

Feel free to Grade his overall performance as GM and last years as well.
Feel free to praise or vent as appropriate to your feelings on the subject.

Hopefully some will have interest in this thread.

My Holmgren GM Rating: D

Free agency: C
Some good some bad, most OK.

Undrafted free agents: C

Drafting: C
Only number #1 Picks have chance of being a regular NHL player.
No #1 Defenseman prospects drafted.
No #1 Goalie prospects drafted.

Trades: D
Holmgren has made 8 good trades out of a total of 17.
Pronger trade was bad.

Cap management: F
Holmgren’s cap management is atrocious,
overpays, salary dumps mismanages contracts.

Intangibles: F
Builds Team backwards, Lack of Patience developing players,
Lack of Plan for future

jd2210 05-25-2013 08:26 AM

Drafting A
Signing undrafted players A+
Signing UFA's (overagers) C-
Cap Management C-
Length of contracts D
Handling goaltenders D-
Trades B

DrinkFightFlyers 05-25-2013 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jd2210 (Post 66574467)
Drafting A
Signing undrafted players A+
Signing UFA's (overagers) C-
Cap Management C-
Length of contracts D
Handling goaltenders D-
Trades B

Overall I'd give him a B to B+. He's made mistakes, but he's also made some great deals.

Rolex 05-25-2013 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jd2210 (Post 66574467)
Drafting A
Signing undrafted players A+
Signing UFA's (overagers) C-
Cap Management C-
Length of contracts D
Handling goaltenders D-
Trades B

I don't think that its all on Holmgren; you have to include Snider, Lukko, Luce, the scouts and possibly Clarke. The question might be better of as an evaluation of the Flyer's FO not just the GM. The finances of the organization come into play along with player demands. People dump on PH for NMCs and the like but if you look around the league, every team has these or else the players leave/sign elsewhere. As with Briere, the players are looking for stability int heir lives with long term deals. Hopefully the organizations are as well. You want to lock up your core players.
Two things stand out as low spots with PH: (1) goalies. But its the Bryz thing that messed this up. Credit has to be given to PH for going out and bringing Bobrovsky over here from Russia to begin with. The error was Bryz. (2) The Pronger contract. That it was a +35 deal and the FO didn't know it has made a mess of the cap.

flybynite77 05-25-2013 11:50 AM

Drafting: B
(subgrades in Drafting. Drafting Forwards: A, Drafting Dmen: C+, Drafting Goalies: D)
Signing Undrafted FA's: A
Cap Management: D
Signing FA's(NHL players): C-
Trades: B


I think except when it comes to Trades (and this also somewhat includes scouting department) that Holmgren really hasn't been that good. Your drafting is based in large part on your scouting department. It's something the GM oversees, but over the course of the year it's your scouts who are seeing players and writing up their reports.

I think this is sort of similar to the Phillies under Ed Wade. Now granted Holmgren is way better at trades than Wade (Wade would get pantsed in almost every trade), but the Phillies scouting department is what brought the team back from the depths of obscurity. Led in large part by Mike Arbuckle who when Amaro became GM left and went to Kansas City and the Phillies farm system took a hit.

The things Holmgren does when it comes to cap management and NHL signings just boggles the mind at times. I think the Flyers need to be looking for a younger GM who will come in with either a better financial background or bring in someone specifically for that who they actually listen to.

DrinkFightFlyers 05-25-2013 01:13 PM

Looks like everyone is going more in depth than just a single grade so I'll do the same...

Drafting: B+
Homer has drafted pretty well during his time here. He has made some good picks and some bad picks, but overall I think he has gotten the job done (Couturier, Laughton, Ghost looks promising, Lauridsen looks like a nice bottom pair guy, McGinn looks solid, Cousins looks solid).

Signing undrafted players: A+
I don't think this needs to be delved in to too deeply. Read alone should give him an A+ in this category. Add in his other signees that are either playing on the Flyers, other teams in the league, or still working their way up and this is clearly where he has excelled the most.

Signing UFAs: B
No complaints here. Without getting into the whole argument about whether or not going after Bryz was the right move, most of the other UFAs have worked out relatively well. Shelley was bad, but not as bad as people make it out to be. Throughout the years he has really brought in a number of good players. They may not have stayed around but they worked out for the most part when they were here.

Cap Management: C+
He's made some bonehead moves with regards to the cap, but overall during his six or so seasons here I don't think his cap management has been as bad as people make it out to be. Yes, it has been a problem, but overall it has not. There is the famous David Sloane tryout that really sticks out in people's minds, and that was a terrible situation, but the team overcame it and there has been very little cap related issues outside of that. I know people get mad that the Flyers are always near the cap, but that hasn't stopped them from doing what they have planned on doing (at least not from what I can tell). Obviously everyone wants to have cap-room, but if you have the type of team the Flyers have, it isn't always possible.

Trades: A
Outside of the worst trade in history where a future hall of famer and a second rounder was traded for a goon, Homer's trades have been pretty damned good. Complain all you want about the couple of trades where a second or third rounder was traded, but the guy can swing a deal like no other.

So overall, I give Homer a B to B+. Not the best GM in history, but a pretty damned good one.

LegionOfDoom91 05-25-2013 01:16 PM

Homer has some bonehead moments (some of them are more on Snider than him) but IMO the positives outweight the negatives.

LegionOfDoom91 05-25-2013 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers (Post 66580831)
Looks like everyone is going more in depth than just a single grade so I'll do the same...

Drafting: B+
Homer has drafted pretty well during his time here. He has made some good picks and some bad picks, but overall I think he has gotten the job done (Couturier, Laughton, Ghost looks promising, Lauridsen looks like a nice bottom pair guy, McGinn looks solid, Cousins looks solid).

Signing undrafted players: A+
I don't think this needs to be delved in to too deeply. Read alone should give him an A+ in this category. Add in his other signees that are either playing on the Flyers, other teams in the league, or still working their way up and this is clearly where he has excelled the most.

Signing UFAs: B
No complaints here. Without getting into the whole argument about whether or not going after Bryz was the right move, most of the other UFAs have worked out relatively well. Shelley was bad, but not as bad as people make it out to be. Throughout the years he has really brought in a number of good players. They may not have stayed around but they worked out for the most part when they were here.

Cap Management: C+
He's made some bonehead moves with regards to the cap, but overall during his six or so seasons here I don't think his cap management has been as bad as people make it out to be. Yes, it has been a problem, but overall it has not. There is the famous David Sloane tryout that really sticks out in people's minds, and that was a terrible situation, but the team overcame it and there has been very little cap related issues outside of that. I know people get mad that the Flyers are always near the cap, but that hasn't stopped them from doing what they have planned on doing (at least not from what I can tell). Obviously everyone wants to have cap-room, but if you have the type of team the Flyers have, it isn't always possible.

Trades: A
Outside of the worst trade in history where a future hall of famer and a second rounder was traded for a goon, Homer's trades have been pretty damned good. Complain all you want about the couple of trades where a second or third rounder was traded, but the guy can swing a deal like no other.

So overall, I give Homer a B to B+. Not the best GM in history, but a pretty damned good one.

I think we can all agree that the Eminger one was the worst.

moosehead81 05-25-2013 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 (Post 66580933)
Homer has some bonehead moments (some of them are more on Snider than him) but IMO the positives outweight the negatives.

Getting rid of Carter and Richards, particularly Richards, may haunt the Flyers for years to come. Time will tell. Getting Timmonen, Hartnell, Cobourn and Pronger for next to nothing resulted in some short term success. Unloading Bobrovsky and picking up Bryzgalov may be up there with Richards and Carter. However, anybody that can manage to put what is usually a competitive, entertaining team on the ice around the NHL salary cap is a genius in my mind.

MP92 05-25-2013 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moosehead81 (Post 66585625)
Getting rid of Carter and Richards, particularly Richards, may haunt the Flyers for years to come. Time will tell. Getting Timmonen, Hartnell, Cobourn and Pronger for next to nothing resulted in some short term success. Unloading Bobrovsky and picking up Bryzgalov may be up there with Richards and Carter. However, anybody that can manage to put what is usually a competitive, entertaining team on the ice around the NHL salary cap is a genius in my mind.

Nah. I feel Coots and Schenn will turn out to be better players. Obviously that's not a given but that's my feeling. Add in Voracek, Simmonds and the draft pick that got us Grossmann and that's a golden return. The Bobrovsky trade, yes Im sure that will haunt us. We all have to cross our fingers and hope he goes back to the KHL :help:

Haute Couturier 05-25-2013 04:50 PM

Drafting: C
JVR, Couturier, Sbisa are the NHL regulars he drafted as GM. That said two of the three of these players were taken in the top ten so I don't look at his drafting as anything exceptional. His track record so far has not been good after the first round.

Undrafted free agents: B
Holmgren has a tendency to sign a load of college free agents, but they mostly waste away in the AHL. He hit big with Read.

Free agency: C
Holmgren's foray into free agency has been a mixed bag. Briere, Timonen, Hartnell, and Bryzgalov were his big signings. Briere was overpaid in dollars based on a career year he never repeated while and signed to too many years. He paid steeply for Briere's decline years. Bryzgalov has been a complete and utter disaster so far. Timonen and Hartnell were good signings.

Cap management: D
The Flyers are consistently the at the top of the league in spending, yet they rarely finish better than 5th in the East. He is not efficient with his money. He's had to dump salary on multiple occasions which has led to losing trades. He overpaid massively for Briere's declining production when they already had more than enough centers. He grossly overpaid for Bryzgalov when there were better options elsewhere. He overpaid for his 13th forward (Shelley). He has an aversion of the open market which leads him paying top dollar/overpaying for players.

Trades: C
Let's examine his noteworthy moves. I am not counting trading for rights because they aren't actual trades in my mind. It's also stupid to give up something for someone you can get in free agency without giving up an asset.

Forsberg for Upshall, Parent, 1st, and 3rd - This is about the proper value for a rental so I'd say it was a solid, but unspectacular trade.
Zhitnik for Coburn - Highway robbery.
Pitkanen, Sanderson, 3rd for Lupul and Smith - The value was fine, but it created a need for another puck mover.
Umberger + 4th for a 1st and a 3rd - Fair value for someone they couldn't afford to re-sign.
1st round pick for Steve Eminger and a 3rd - Horrible. Washington wasn't even going to re-sign Eminger.
Eminger, Downie, 4th round pick for Matt Carle and a 3rd - Worked out well for the Flyers.
Upshall, 2nd round pick for Dan Carcillo - He gave up the best player in the deal and included a pick with him. Poor asset management.
Lupul, Sbisa, two 1sts, and a conditional 3rd for Chris Pronger and Ryan Dingle - He gave up a lot of youth/futures for an aged top pairing defender. He only got one good, healthy year out of Pronger so overall this was a failure.
OKT + 5th rounder for Ville Leino - This ended up being a big time steal.
2nd round pick for Andrej Meszaros - Good deal.
Gagne for Matt Walker and 4th round pick - Terrible. He couldn't even dump salary right.
1st round pick + 3rd round pick for Kris Versteeg - poor deal considering he sold him for less months later.
Jeff Carter for Jakub Voracek, 1st round pick, 3rd round pick - they took a step back short term with this deal, but will likely be a big win long term.
Mike Richards and Rob Bordson for Wayne Simmonds, Brayden Schenn, 3rd round pick - Like above they took a step back short term, but it has the chance to be a big win if Schenn pans out.
2nd round pick + 3rd round pick for Grossmann - fair deal.
2nd round pick + Kalinski + 4th rounder for Kubina - overpayment for a depth defenseman that was done.
JVR for Luke Schenn - A first line forward is worth more than a defensive defender. See Grossmann deal.

By my count he has 7 deals that were fair value/steals and 7 deals that were poor value/created holes. There are two more deals (Richards, Carter) that saw the main roster take a step backwards, but have the potential to be long term wins as long as their players keep developing. I think he is about average at trading.

Overall grade: C

sobrien 05-25-2013 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haute Couturier (Post 66587463)
Drafting: C
JVR, Couturier, Sbisa are the NHL regulars he drafted as GM. That said two of the three of these players were taken in the top ten so I don't look at his drafting as anything exceptional. His track record so far has not been good after the first round.

Undrafted free agents: B
Holmgren has a tendency to sign a load of college free agents, but they mostly waste away in the AHL. He hit big with Read.

Free agency: C
Holmgren's foray into free agency has been a mixed bag. Briere, Timonen, Hartnell, and Bryzgalov were his big signings. Briere was overpaid in dollars based on a career year he never repeated while and signed to too many years. He paid steeply for Briere's decline years. Bryzgalov has been a complete and utter disaster so far. Timonen and Hartnell were good signings.

Cap management: D
The Flyers are consistently the at the top of the league in spending, yet they rarely finish better than 5th in the East. He is not efficient with his money. He's had to dump salary on multiple occasions which has led to losing trades. He overpaid massively for Briere's declining production when they already had more than enough centers. He grossly overpaid for Bryzgalov when there were better options elsewhere. He overpaid for his 13th forward (Shelley). He has an aversion of the open market which leads him paying top dollar/overpaying for players.

Trades: C
Let's examine his noteworthy moves. I am not counting trading for rights because they aren't actual trades in my mind. It's also stupid to give up something for someone you can get in free agency without giving up an asset.

Forsberg for Upshall, Parent, 1st, and 3rd - This is about the proper value for a rental so I'd say it was a solid, but unspectacular trade.
Zhitnik for Coburn - Highway robbery.
Pitkanen, Sanderson, 3rd for Lupul and Smith - The value was fine, but it created a need for another puck mover.
Umberger + 4th for a 1st and a 3rd - Fair value for someone they couldn't afford to re-sign.
1st round pick for Steve Eminger and a 3rd - Horrible. Washington wasn't even going to re-sign Eminger.
Eminger, Downie, 4th round pick for Matt Carle and a 3rd - Worked out well for the Flyers.
Upshall, 2nd round pick for Dan Carcillo - He gave up the best player in the deal and included a pick with him. Poor asset management.
Lupul, Sbisa, two 1sts, and a conditional 3rd for Chris Pronger and Ryan Dingle - He gave up a lot of youth/futures for an aged top pairing defender. He only got one good, healthy year out of Pronger so overall this was a failure.
OKT + 5th rounder for Ville Leino - This ended up being a big time steal.
2nd round pick for Andrej Meszaros - Good deal.
Gagne for Matt Walker and 4th round pick - Terrible. He couldn't even dump salary right.
1st round pick + 3rd round pick for Kris Versteeg - poor deal considering he sold him for less months later.
Jeff Carter for Jakub Voracek, 1st round pick, 3rd round pick - they took a step back short term with this deal, but will likely be a big win long term.
Mike Richards and Rob Bordson for Wayne Simmonds, Brayden Schenn, 3rd round pick - Like above they took a step back short term, but it has the chance to be a big win if Schenn pans out.
2nd round pick + 3rd round pick for Grossmann - fair deal.
2nd round pick + Kalinski + 4th rounder for Kubina - overpayment for a depth defenseman that was done.
JVR for Luke Schenn - A first line forward is worth more than a defensive defender. See Grossmann deal.

By my count he has 7 deals that were fair value/steals and 7 deals that were poor value/created holes. There are two more deals (Richards, Carter) that saw the main roster take a step backwards, but have the potential to be long term wins as long as their players keep developing. I think he is about average at trading.

Overall grade: C

The rights to Timonen, Hartnell, and Bryzgalov were all acquired via trade technically, so they should be included in the trade section AND the FA section IMO. It should also be considered that we may have needed to overpay Briere because we were coming off the worst season in the franchise's history. Wouldn't be surprised if that added another $1m or so AAV to the deal. I also think that while Grossmann and Schenn don't exactly fit the system perfectly, they'll both be big pieces the next few seasons, and that a first-line forward may be > than an everyday defensive defenseman, it's not true out of a #1 d-man, and JvR isn't quite a first-line fwd yet IMO.



I find it difficult to grade Holmgren because I don't know how much power he actually has. I feel like the shelf life for a player in this organization is depressingly terrible, but that's mostly due to Snider and Clarke. Holmgren's made some stupid decisions, but he's made some great ones as well. He rebuilt the franchise in 1 offseason after its worst season ever, and for all of his stupid trades, Clarke had equally as many, and triple the head coach firings.

Beef Invictus 05-25-2013 06:13 PM

Let's not forget that he signed Pronger apparently without understanding the 35+ rule.

LegionOfDoom91 05-25-2013 06:24 PM

I don't know how you can chalk up the Pronger trade as a failure.

Also with the Gagne deal he had NTC and would only waive it to Tampa Bay.

MsWoof 05-25-2013 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moosehead81 (Post 66585625)
Getting rid of Carter and Richards, particularly Richards, may haunt the Flyers for years to come. Time will tell. Getting Timmonen, Hartnell, Cobourn and Pronger for next to nothing resulted in some short term success. Unloading Bobrovsky and picking up Bryzgalov may be up there with Richards and Carter. However, anybody that can manage to put what is usually a competitive, entertaining team on the ice around the NHL salary cap is a genius in my mind.

It's not just that he traded them, the return was good but where is the plan? You get rid of 2 guys entering their prime and who are excellent defensive players at the same time Lappy and Betts totally break down and Powe is traded. All your defensive minded forwards are gone. Bring in a bunch of young guys, a 31 year old goalie who gets signed to a 9 year, $51 million contract with a NMC, rely on 2 old defencemen who make a ton of money, 1 who is signed till he's past 40 because you didn't understand the over 35 rule. There was way too much risk with Pronger, Timonen and Bryz because of their age and/or length of contracts and too many offensive players who don't know how to play defence. Then Bob gets traded for picks because Bryz needs to carry the load and ends up as a Vezina nominee while Bryz more or less craps the bed.

This is definitely not all on Holmgren, he's just the GM and a lot of this comes from above him, but you have to look at all of this and wonder why he's not putting a plan together.

Beef Invictus 05-25-2013 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MsWoof (Post 66593219)
It's not just that he traded them, the return was good but where is the plan? You get rid of 2 guys entering their prime and who are excellent defensive players at the same time Lappy and Betts totally break down and Powe is traded. All your defensive minded forwards are gone. Bring in a bunch of young guys, a 31 year old goalie who gets signed to a 9 year, $51 million contract with a NMC, rely on 2 old defencemen who make a ton of money, 1 who is signed till he's past 40 because you didn't understand the over 35 rule. There was way too much risk with Pronger, Timonen and Bryz because of their age and/or length of contracts and too many offensive players who don't know how to play defence. Then Bob gets traded for picks because Bryz needs to carry the load and ends up as a Vezina nominee while Bryz more or less craps the bed.

This is definitely not all on Holmgren, he's just the GM and a lot of this comes from above him, but you have to look at all of this and wonder why he's not putting a plan together.

Yeah. Long-term planning has been bad.

I understand why Homer felt the need to trade Gagne, but considering the way the cap space was used (Walker, Shelley, Zherdev) it was pretty pointless overall. I won't really call it bad, there wasn't much he could do...but it was definitely unnecessary.

Edit: I suppose it was kinda necessary. No cap space to fill a few roster spots, no prospects to take their spots; that's on Homer. So really, it was a preview of the Richards/Carter trades

Edit 2: As for grades, I don't feel like going into specifics. I'd give him a C+ overall. One thing people haven't discussed it creativity. I'll give him an A there. He's gotten several players from interesting places and thinks outside the box. That's good, because with the way he handcuffs himself with cap and asset management he'd be screwed if he weren't creative.

1865 05-25-2013 07:08 PM

Drafting A
Signing undrafted players A
Signing UFA's (overagers) C
Developing Prospects B
Cap Management B-
Length of contracts B-
Handling goaltenders E
Trades B+

Overall: B+

funghoul 05-25-2013 07:26 PM

considering he's devoid of all personality and seems to be as intelligent as wallpaper when he's interviewed, also coming from the past player department he's shown a real ability to be creative and make moves with gall that imply vision. he just can't, like a lot of g.m's see five feet in front of his face in terms of what to do if some of these big risks go bad quick. he's had more success tho in his tenure especially when you look at where we were when he took over than i ever thought he'd have. the good out weighs the bad. i like him and i do trust him as a g.m. It's a pretty hard job because of the balance he needs to maintain in this city between staying a contender and trying to rebuild slightly. he just looks to be on a bad run lately in hindsight because of the success of players we've traded and injuries to ones we still have. but you can't predict that and you can't pin it on him because they looked like good trades at the time. I'm still waiting for him to make a really retarded crazy old school trade tho (like when calgary traded gilmour and all those guys to toronto for nobodies). at this point i can see him trying to package everybody for a whole new team. then next day he'll be fired. one last crazy hurrah.

Haute Couturier 05-25-2013 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sobrien (Post 66588817)
The rights to Timonen, Hartnell, and Bryzgalov were all acquired via trade technically, so they should be included in the trade section AND the FA section IMO. It should also be considered that we may have needed to overpay Briere because we were coming off the worst season in the franchise's history. Wouldn't be surprised if that added another $1m or so AAV to the deal. I also think that while Grossmann and Schenn don't exactly fit the system perfectly, they'll both be big pieces the next few seasons, and that a first-line forward may be > than an everyday defensive defenseman, it's not true out of a #1 d-man, and JvR isn't quite a first-line fwd yet IMO.



I find it difficult to grade Holmgren because I don't know how much power he actually has. I feel like the shelf life for a player in this organization is depressingly terrible, but that's mostly due to Snider and Clarke. Holmgren's made some stupid decisions, but he's made some great ones as well. He rebuilt the franchise in 1 offseason after its worst season ever, and for all of his stupid trades, Clarke had equally as many, and triple the head coach firings.

A) I don't consider trading for rights actual trades since those players are technically free agents

B) I think it's a waste of time to trade an asset for players he could sign on July 1 without giving up an asset.

C) I tend to think trading for a players rights tends to lead to overpaying because he has to pay them enough to forgo free agency.

In other words I look at it as a negative anyway. In regards to Briere, they were stacked at center so he was an unnecessary piece. They were just too impatient to wait for Richards and Carter to develop. I think it was a terrible deal that was a crux for many of their cap problems IMO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 (Post 66592837)
I don't know how you can chalk up the Pronger trade as a failure.

Also with the Gagne deal he had NTC and would only waive it to Tampa Bay.

I don't know how you could chalk up the Pronger trade as a success. One good year with Pronger is worth what exactly? Certainly not 3 years worth of first round picks.

Don't forget Homer went over the cap and had to force Gagne out. Gagne wasn't going to do him any favors and he had zero leverage in any trade regardless.

LegionOfDoom91 05-25-2013 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haute Couturier (Post 66597529)
I don't know how you could chalk up the Pronger trade as a success. One good year with Pronger is worth what exactly? Certainly not 3 years worth of first round picks.

I never said I would. I would mark it down as a push if anything.

BringBackStevens 05-25-2013 10:06 PM

The constant need to compete right away has without a doubt handcuffed the team and for that reason it's hard to attribute the franchise's general failures of the past 6 years solely on Holmgren. That said, we can only evaluate him for what we know to be fact in front of us.

First, I hope our franchise has learned their lesson about UFA signings under the CBA. These contracts are incredibly dangerous with a cap and Briere and Brzygalov are albatrosses that really hinder the team's flexibility. They should count their lucky stars amnesties were added, or this franchise could be in some serious trouble

Next, I give Homer credit for about half of his trades being good, some "meh", some awful. Overall, he gets a C on trades. He absolutely needs to find a way to keep more draft picks. It's very important under the cap system.

Cap management, no way he can get more than a D. Not knowing the rules and allocating money poorly has plagued the team for years.

Long term plan and strategy, this is where I think we really come to a cross road. What's going on here? This team simply cannot continue to both expect to compete for a cup every year and at the same time get younger and build for the future. The two paths are simply incongruous with one another. This isn't likely his fault alone, but this franchise needs to accept that they can't win every year and build smartly and maintain flexibility at all times.

sobrien 05-26-2013 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haute Couturier (Post 66597529)
A) I don't consider trading for rights actual trades since those players are technically free agents

B) I think it's a waste of time to trade an asset for players he could sign on July 1 without giving up an asset.

C) I tend to think trading for a players rights tends to lead to overpaying because he has to pay them enough to forgo free agency.

In other words I look at it as a negative anyway. In regards to Briere, they were stacked at center so he was an unnecessary piece. They were just too impatient to wait for Richards and Carter to develop. I think it was a terrible deal that was a crux for many of their cap problems IMO.


I don't know how you could chalk up the Pronger trade as a success. One good year with Pronger is worth what exactly? Certainly not 3 years worth of first round picks.

Don't forget Homer went over the cap and had to force Gagne out. Gagne wasn't going to do him any favors and he had zero leverage in any trade regardless.

You can't count that against Homer, or anyone really. Pronger went down with a freak injury that's likely career ending. Wasn't because he was 37, it could have happened to any player in the league

achdumeingute 05-26-2013 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haute Couturier (Post 66587463)
Drafting: C
JVR, Couturier, Sbisa are the NHL regulars he drafted as GM. That said two of the three of these players were taken in the top ten so I don't look at his drafting as anything exceptional. His track record so far has not been good after the first round.

I disagree with you here...NOBODY hits with consistency after round 2, something like 5% of players drafted after the second round end up playing 200 nhl games.

He has hit on all of his 1st rounders, granted small sample size. This is why we just need to keep on drafting...

achdumeingute 05-26-2013 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sobrien (Post 66610121)
You can't count that against Homer, or anyone really. Pronger went down with a freak injury that's likely career ending. Wasn't because he was 37, it could have happened to any player in the league

What I will count against him, was that he PAID too much for one guy that ANH needed to deal. Lupul, Sbisa, 1st, and not another first is a MUCH better deal than essentially 3 straight years of not having a first round pick, compounded by trading another 1st for Versteeg and 2 more for Carle.

Its a large reason we are where we are today, devoid of farm talent.

achdumeingute 05-26-2013 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haute Couturier (Post 66597529)
B) I think it's a waste of time to trade an asset for players he could sign on July 1 without giving up an asset.

depending on the asset, its not.

Exclusive rights to negotiate are VERY useful.


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