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-   -   CBC Go Public: Should junior hockey fights be subject to criminal charges? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1449097)

danishh 06-17-2013 10:46 PM

CBC Go Public: Should junior hockey fights be subject to criminal charges?
 
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/britis...eybeating.html

Quote:

Nick plays major midget 'A' hockey in Woodstock. In January, his team was winning 7-2 against the Brantford 99ers. The Majors said tempers were high. The Brantford team had received several misconduct penalties and two of its players had been ejected.

Near the end of the third period, Nick skated toward the opposing net. When the whistle blew, he stopped in front — spraying the opposing team’s goalie with ice.

It was seen as what's called 'snowing the goalie.' In apparent retaliation, a Brantford player cross checked him from behind. Other players crowded the net and fights broke out.

It's what happened next that that his father said was "sickening" to watch.

With Nick down on the ice, the same player who checked him then grabbed him, pulled his helmet off, and punched him relentlessly in the head — at least 10 times — before the linesman was able to pull him off.

Both boys were suspended — for fighting — Nick for two games and the other boy for four, because it was his second fight of the season.
However, his mother's video shows Nick didn’t fight back. He took the blows, then got up and skated to the bench. He suffered a broken nose, concussion, bruises and cuts.

His parents and team manager said taunts and insults from the other team continued even as Nick was being taken to hospital.

I'm of the personal opinion that no, except in egregious cases, this should be handled by the hockey league's discipline system. That said, watching the video i'm surprised that there was no supplemental discipline except for the automatic "fighting" suspension.

Draw Me a McElephant 06-17-2013 11:44 PM

It probably shouldn't be a criminal case, but the fact that he only received four games and that the kid who got beat up was suspended at all just pathetic.

Did the teams play again after that? I bet there would be a lot of players looking for retribution after such a soft suspension. Terrible job by the league.

Canadiens1958 06-18-2013 05:57 AM

Alliance Hockey
 
Suggest checking if Alliance Hockey, the league in question, falls under the jurisdiction of the CAHA and/or recognized Ontario, CAHA jurisdictions:

http://www.alliancehockey.com/

or is Alliance Hockey part of the hockey fringe, at times referred to as "Outlaw" organizations.

Note, not taking a position on hockey organizations that are not fully under the CAHA umbrella.

tacogeoff 06-18-2013 10:27 AM

both player s were in the wrong IMO. you do not snow a goalie in a heated game and expect not to answer for it and on the other end u at least give the guy and opportunity to prepare to defend himself

Gobias Industries 06-18-2013 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggy66 (Post 67639577)
both player s were in the wrong IMO. you do not snow a goalie in a heated game and expect not to answer for it and on the other end u at least give the guy and opportunity to prepare to defend himself

Sigh...

Is it not worth mentioning which is "more wrong"?

I don't think snowing a goalie comes with an expectation to drop the gloves, or maybe I've been out of the game for too long?

Anyway, joke league, joke refereeing, and I can't wait for fighting to be banned entirely. It's my belief that what that kid did was criminal and outside the scope of the sport, but just my opinion.

canucksfan 06-18-2013 11:30 AM

Unless there are two willing players wanting to fight, there should be criminal charges. This player did not want to fight but had at least 10 punches to the head. This could cause serious problems for him down the road. Disgusting act.

El Cohiba 06-18-2013 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggy66 (Post 67639577)
both player s were in the wrong IMO. you do not snow a goalie in a heated game and expect not to answer for it and on the other end u at least give the guy and opportunity to prepare to defend himself

I agree. He snowed the goalie, so retaliation is warranted. I may be in the minority, but I think the league handled the situation appropriately by issuing the suspensions. No need for criminal charges unless it's something outrageous (e.g. like a McSorley or Bertuzzi) That being said, why didn't the kid fight back or why didn't his teammates jump in? It's hockey, fighting is part of the game and if you're going to snow the goalie expect to answer for it

sandysan 06-18-2013 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggy66 (Post 67639577)
both player s were in the wrong IMO. you do not snow a goalie in a heated game and expect not to answer for it and on the other end u at least give the guy and opportunity to prepare to defend himself

His team was up 7-3 and he shot it in and then accelerated towards the goalie and then snows him. anyone who says that was not his intent is either blind or lying. I dont buy the feigning of ignorance that comes with such a transgression because he end up with the short end of the stick.

Do I like the fact that he caught a beating, no. but the kid is certainly not blameless and as unpopular as this position will be, his own actions precipitated what happened. That's not to simply dismiss the lack of etiquette by the player who kept throwing them, but to paint the kid as some blameless victim is completely unwarranted.

sandysan 06-18-2013 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by canucksfan (Post 67642183)
Unless there are two willing players wanting to fight, there should be criminal charges. This player did not want to fight but had at least 10 punches to the head. This could cause serious problems for him down the road. Disgusting act.

so your position is that players can do anything on the ice and then politely refuse to dance and then skate away scott-free ? I'm sorry that's not how the game works ( and it will ultimately be more injurious)

There are somethings that if you chose to do on the ice, your right to refuse an invitation to dance is rescinded. I can understand that for some people, snowing the goalie might not meet their threshold, that's fine. but the notion that players ( including 16 year olds) can do whatever they want on the ice with impunity, in antithetical to how the game has been, and should continue to be, played.

canucksfan 06-18-2013 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandysan (Post 67648871)
so your position is that players can do anything on the ice and then politely refuse to dance and then skate away scott-free ? I'm sorry that's not how the game works ( and it will ultimately be more injurious)

No

Quote:

There are somethings that if you chose to do on the ice, your right to refuse an invitation to dance is rescinded. I can understand that for some people, snowing the goalie might not meet their threshold, that's fine. but the notion that players ( including 16 year olds) can do whatever they want on the ice with impunity, in antithetical to how the game has been, and should continue to be, played.
Snowing the goalie shouldn't equal ten shots to the head to someone that isn't defending themselves.

Trognitz 06-18-2013 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gobias Industries (Post 67641811)
and I can't wait for fighting to be banned entirely.

Why ? so hockey can be even MORE unpopular than it is now ?:shakehead :(

sandysan 06-18-2013 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by canucksfan (Post 67649413)
No



Snowing the goalie shouldn't equal ten shots to the head to someone that isn't defending themselves.

you said that unless the two combatants consent that there should be criminal charges. If that's not your position, good.

Again snowing the goalie is decidedly in the grey area. Is it actionable ? Surely. Does it mean you have to fight ? Perhaps, depending on the context. If he had not stopped and done a 1/3 ice charge and full-out ran the goalie, i dont think anyone comes to his defense even if he ends up eating 15 shots in a similar manner.

canucksfan 06-18-2013 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandysan (Post 67650185)
you said that unless the two combatants consent that there should be criminal charges. If that's not your position, good.

Again snowing the goalie is decidedly in the grey area. Is it actionable ? Surely. Does it mean you have to fight ? Perhaps, depending on the context. If he had not stopped and done a 1/3 ice charge and full-out ran the goalie, i dont think anyone comes to his defense even if he ends up eating 15 shots in a similar manner.

My problem is the excessive force. 10 shots to someone's is excessive force no matter what the player did.

sandysan 06-18-2013 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by canucksfan (Post 67650323)
My problem is the excessive force. 10 shots to someone's is excessive force no matter what the player did.

so if he had run the goalie, you would still be sticking up for him ?
Saying that punches 6and 7 were okay 8 was bordeline but 9 and 10 were clearly over the line ?

When players fight its hard to predict what is going to happen, if it is that big of a concern, then don't initiate the precipitating event thinking you can extricate yourself by simply saying " thanks but no thanks, I've had enough". If the cops get involved, perhaps the can have a detective look for his misplaced intestinal fortitude.

canucksfan 06-18-2013 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandysan (Post 67650779)
so if he had run the goalie, you would still be sticking up for him ?
Saying that punches 6and 7 were okay 8 was bordeline but 9 and 10 were clearly over the line ?

When players fight its hard to predict what is going to happen, if it is that big of a concern, then don't initiate the precipitating event thinking you can extricate yourself by simply saying " thanks but no thanks, I've had enough". If the cops get involved, perhaps the can have a detective look for his misplaced intestinal fortitude.

Giving someone 10 punches to the head while he isn't defending himself can cause serious problems in the future, especially to a developing brain. If he ran the goalie, the league can suspend him. This vigilante justice is stupid.

sandysan 06-18-2013 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by canucksfan (Post 67651117)
Giving someone 10 punches to the head while he isn't defending himself can cause serious problems in the future, especially to a developing brain. If he ran the goalie, the league can suspend him. This vigilante justice is stupid.

how does the league restricting his ability to play help the goalie who has been run ?

Checking can also cause serious problems in the future, same as blocking shots. Anyone who cant comprehend that the opposition might take offense at you snowing the goalie up 7-3 and within this continuum of responses that fighting might possibly be the result hasn't watched a whole lot of hockey. Perhaps what the defenseman should have done was wait for the next faceoff, spear the kid in the gut at the get go ( or run him in the numbers) then skate over to the box hiding behind the stripes assuring everyone that the 5 minutes and a possible suspensions is clearly enough for you to learn your lesson.

Im just wondering, in this situation had one of his teamates interceded on his behalf and then tuned the tuner ( broken nose and concussion) would people be vilifiying the guy who came to the aid of a teamate getting wailed on ? I certainly wouldn't.

Gobias Industries 06-18-2013 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trognitz (Post 67649679)
Why ? so hockey can be even MORE unpopular than it is now ?:shakehead :(

Yes, that's why.

canucksfan 06-18-2013 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandysan (Post 67652109)
how does the league restricting his ability to play help the goalie who has been run ?

How does pummeling a guy help the goalie who just got run? It doesn't.

Quote:

Checking can also cause serious problems in the future, same as blocking shots.
These are not acts that are punished though. Fighting is punished in hockey.

Quote:

Anyone who cant comprehend that the opposition might take offense at you snowing the goalie up 7-3 and within this continuum of responses that fighting might possibly be the result hasn't watched a whole lot of hockey. Perhaps what the defenseman should have done was wait for the next faceoff, spear the kid in the gut at the get go ( or run him in the numbers) then skate over to the box hiding behind the stripes assuring everyone that the 5 minutes and a possible suspensions is clearly enough for you to learn your lesson.
In the NHL I have never seen someone drops the gloves and start throwing bombs at a player who just got showed by ice. Was it dumb? Abosultey. Did he need to face 10 shots to the head to learn his lesson? Nope.

Quote:

Im just wondering, in this situation had one of his teamates interceded on his behalf and then tuned the tuner ( broken nose and concussion) would people be vilifiying the guy who came to the aid of a teamate getting wailed on ? I certainly wouldn't.
I would. Someone should have jumped itto defend their teammate but not in an extreme violent way.

sandysan 06-18-2013 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by canucksfan (Post 67652349)
How does pummeling a guy help the goalie who just got run? It doesn't.



These are not acts that are punished though. Fighting is punished in hockey.



In the NHL I have never seen someone drops the gloves and start throwing bombs at a player who just got showed by ice. Was it dumb? Abosultey. Did he need to face 10 shots to the head to learn his lesson? Nope.



I would. Someone should have jumped itto defend their teammate but not in an extreme violent way.


it most certainly does, its the essential definition of a deterrant. For a lot of people, accepting league mandated justice is far less of a deterrant than getting your hat publically handed to you.


I've watched my fair share of hockey and if you dont think you can get your dance card punched by intentionally snowing the goalie in a blow out game i'm not sure what's left to say. And guys going into a fight dont know how its going to end, but if a teamate of the tunee had stepped up in defense of his teamate, that's laudable. decrying it based on the consequences ( which the fighter cannot predict going in) is wrong and shortsighted.

Gobias Industries 06-18-2013 03:16 PM

I'd prefer my sixteen year old's health to supercede ridiculous sub-rules in hockey.

So there's no reason I'd accept for a young man to get pummeled for ten shots when he clearly has no intention of fighting.

sandysan 06-18-2013 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gobias Industries (Post 67652803)
I'd prefer my sixteen year old's health to supercede ridiculous sub-rules in hockey.

So there's no reason I'd accept for a young man to get pummeled for ten shots when he clearly has no intention of fighting.

so your 16 year old car go around sticking people with impunity and the worst you would accept would be a strongly worded letter to the editor in the local rag ?

Again where is the line, is it two punches ? 5 ? The guy throwing them he's supposed to divine that his opponent is going to go boneless ? I dont like how it ended, but it started based on a decision that the player who got tuned made, he's not blameless.

Oscar Acosta 06-18-2013 03:51 PM

Punching anyone while they're down on the ice is a ***** move.

Gobias Industries 06-18-2013 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandysan (Post 67653555)
so your 16 year old car go around sticking people with impunity and the worst you would accept would be a strongly worded letter to the editor in the local rag ?

Again where is the line, is it two punches ? 5 ? The guy throwing them he's supposed to divine that his opponent is going to go boneless ? I dont like how it ended, but it started based on a decision that the player who got tuned made, he's not blameless.

Well I suppose the line for me is 0, given that I've already stated I'd prefer fighting to be removed from the game.

And we're talking about a player who snowed a goalie, no need to talk about sticking people.

(EDIT: This is the first post I realized I was in the fight forum, thought I was in The Rink, so I'll just remove myself at this point)

sandysan 06-18-2013 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oscar Acosta (Post 67654527)
Punching anyone while they're down on the ice is a ***** move.

Sure is. So is thowing at a guy with no helmet while you hide behind a cage. So is snowing the goalie and thinking that your unwillingness to answer the bell is a get out of jail free pass.

There's plenty of blame to go around, as long as the kid who snowed the goalie gets his fair share, everything is peachy. if he suffers the exact same injuries while thowing them back, I dont think this is as big a deal.

sandysan 06-18-2013 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gobias Industries (Post 67654631)
Well I suppose the line for me is 0, given that I've already stated I'd prefer fighting to be removed from the game.

And we're talking about a player who snowed a goalie, no need to talk about sticking people.

(EDIT: This is the first post I realized I was in the fight forum, thought I was in The Rink, so I'll just remove myself at this point)

I'm not convinced that snowing the goalies is as bad as running one or spearing someone. but it is objectionable, and you might have to answer for it, and this answer might mean you have to drop the gloves.


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