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BreakfastatMarios 06-21-2013 07:58 AM

The Value of an enforcer on the Pens 2013-2014 team
 
Was talking to a friend and we were debating ways the Penguins could get better, and as we kept talking, the topic of team toughness, and the fact that the bruins took liberties against Crosby came up.

My friend said imagine if someone did that to Wayne Gretzky what would happen I reckon McSorley would've decapitated them and used their skull as a chilli bowl.

Now I dont advocate decapitating people, however I do like some good Chilli :D

I think it would be interesting to give up a roster spot to have someone up here. I know the Penguins have BIG Mac down on the baby Pens. If not Big Mac then somebody needs to be brought in.

The thing about this is, when you have a guy like that, folks are less likely to take liberties against guys like Crosby and Malkin, and everybody plays tougher knowing someone has there back.

I do understand there are a lot of things to work on, however I do feel this is an overlooked aspect of this team, it just seems folks hit Crosby and the rest of the team doesn't retaliate all of the time.

Bennett Brauer 06-21-2013 08:12 AM

MacIntyre is probably the best enforcer in the NHL because nobody wants any part of him, if a player starts something with a Penguin, he just skates up to that player and they shut their mouth (see Chris Neil)

TheSniper26 06-21-2013 08:13 AM

I don't think having an enforcer on the roster would have changed a single thing about our playoff exit.

Ogrezilla 06-21-2013 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik (Post 67773625)
MacIntyre is probably the best enforcer in the NHL because nobody wants any part of him, if a player starts something with a Penguin, he just skates up to that player and they shut their mouth (see Chris Neil)

I think he's one of the worst enforcers in the NHL because he never actually has a chance to do anything. Players he wants to fight just avoid him and he's so bad at hockey you can't put him out there against good players.

Jag68Sid87 06-21-2013 08:29 AM

Since MacIntyre last played in the NHL, there has been an increase in the number of enforcers used by NHL teams. Carolina now uses one semi-regularly (Westgarth). Ottawa used Kassian quite a bit. Colton Orr is back in the NHL, and the Leafs also used McLaren a lot. I anticipate more teams (especially in the East) going with more toughness.

What I would do is make sure this team is plenty tough to be able to nip any physical plans other teams may have in the bud. I'd bring back Big Mac and have him in the lineup for 45-50 games. That's just enough of a deterrent to set the proper tone for the rest of the season and playoffs. I'd also try to sign Ryane Clowe to play on Sid's left wing. He's a heavyweight who can play. His skill set is quite unique. Not sure about his concussion situation, so that bears monitoring. But he'd be a great fit. Then trade for Clutterbuck if you can to bring the hitting ability, agitation and some toughness too. At the back we have Engelland, Bortuzzo, Orpik. Not sure where Murray fits if Orpik stays, but I'd have one or the other around.

That would be the right amount of toughness for a team with significant superstar appeal. This would prevent Crosby from being a constant target for questionable hits and cheap shots. It may not stop everything, but it would be a very good start.

But as long as we have the current regime, none of this will happen. We're more interested in no-talent grinders.

Darth Vitale 06-21-2013 08:31 AM

When you get to the playoffs, the value of an enforcer on the ice (enough that he deters people), is a value to the other team. Nearly all enforcers (including and especially Mac), cannot play hockey at a high enough level to avoid being a constant liability against good playoff teams. Enforcers on the ice today, lead to goals for the other team. It's that simple. This isn't 1982. Even a guy like Laraque in his prime, who could play pretty well for a fighter, would not have changed anything this post-season. Not one thing.

An enforcer is not the answer to anything. And as we finished 1st in the East this year without icing a fighter more than a couple times, you can't even argue that that's how we "got that far".

The kind of toughness we need has nothing to do with enforcers. We need Lucic types not goons. Guys who are big, physically aggressive, but who can actually play the game well when needed. Guys like Murray too (although he's getting older). Fighting is only a peripheral part of it.

Bennett Brauer 06-21-2013 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ogrezilla (Post 67773753)
I think he's one of the worst enforcers in the NHL because he never actually has a chance to do anything. Players he wants to fight just avoid him and he's so bad at hockey you can't put him out there against good players.

I don't think enforcers have to fight to be effective, IMO when he was in the lineup, his presence alone was enough.

He really can't play hockey though :laugh:

But yeah, I don't think we need an enforcer, just tough power forwards that can score and stick up for their teammates. That's obviously hard to find.

BreakfastatMarios 06-21-2013 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 (Post 67773973)
Since MacIntyre last played in the NHL, there has been an increase in the number of enforcers used by NHL teams. Carolina now uses one semi-regularly (Westgarth). Ottawa used Kassian quite a bit. Colton Orr is back in the NHL, and the Leafs also used McLaren a lot. I anticipate more teams (especially in the East) going with more toughness.

What I would do is make sure this team is plenty tough to be able to nip any physical plans other teams may have in the bud. I'd bring back Big Mac and have him in the lineup for 45-50 games. That's just enough of a deterrent to set the proper tone for the rest of the season and playoffs. I'd also try to sign Ryane Clowe to play on Sid's left wing. He's a heavyweight who can play. His skill set is quite unique. Not sure about his concussion situation, so that bears monitoring. But he'd be a great fit. Then trade for Clutterbuck if you can to bring the hitting ability, agitation and some toughness too. At the back we have Engelland, Bortuzzo, Orpik. Not sure where Murray fits if Orpik stays, but I'd have one or the other around.

That would be the right amount of toughness for a team with significant superstar appeal. This would prevent Crosby from being a constant target for questionable hits and cheap shots. It may not stop everything, but it would be a very good start.

But as long as we have the current regime, none of this will happen. We're more interested in no-talent grinders.

I agree with this.

One thing that needs to also happen is from the Top Down, quit being so nice and gentlemen all the time. This is a violent game, it's not golf. Perhaps they need to play with less class and more physicality.

I'm not advocating we become the Flyers, but we cant move forward with the end of year handshakes congratulating another team either.

Bennett Brauer 06-21-2013 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BreakfastatMarios (Post 67774095)
I agree with this.

One thing that needs to also happen is from the Top Down, quit being so nice and gentlemen all the time. This is a violent game, it's not golf. Perhaps they need to play with less class and more physicality.

I'm not advocating we become the Flyers, but we cant move forward with the end of year handshakes congratulating another team either.

Well according to fans of other teams, the Penguins are one of the dirtiest teams in the league and are classless. I've also heard them referred to as "scum" by some Bruins fans.

So we must not be too classy or gentleman-like.

Darth Vitale 06-21-2013 08:37 AM

:laugh:

Having Mac in the lineup for 40 or 50 games is a good way to ensure that we lose an extra 10-15 games a season. He literally would make the kind of mistakes that cost us a game every 4th or 5th game he played. That's assuming he plays for more than 5 minutes + 1 shift. When I read stuff like this as "analysis" of what happened, it really makes me question how well one understands the game of hockey in this era and what actually went wrong out there.

Had not one damn thing to do with intimidating the other team with a fighter. Not one.

#66 06-21-2013 08:43 AM

It depends on the enforcer. Big Mac... not so much but I would love to see Parros in a heartbeat.

In the past two years we've seen Crosby punked out more than a few times and taking extra hits. Last season Sid just came back and the Bruins went after him. Lucic ends it by saying to Sid "What are you going to do about it". This year Chara goes right after Sids jaw and the Pens do nothing.

Forget the bunch of cowboys that won the cup and went to the finals but that stuff would have started a war if Max and Rupper were still around.

BmxHockey 06-21-2013 08:46 AM

Need skaters who can fight.

BreakfastatMarios 06-21-2013 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale (Post 67774181)
:laugh:

Having Mac in the lineup for 40 or 50 games is a good way to ensure that we lose an extra 10-15 games a season. He literally would make the kind of mistakes that cost us a game every 4th or 5th game he played. That's assuming he plays for more than 5 minutes + 1 shift. When I read stuff like this as "analysis" of what happened, it really makes me question how well one understands the game of hockey in this era and what actually went wrong out there.

Had not one damn thing to do with intimidating the other team with a fighter. Not one.

When Chara punched Sid in the jaw he did it cause he knew nobody would step up and make them accountable.

I'm not saying it has to be Big Mac necessarily just someone who's going to stand up for his team mates, and will drop the gloves.

Oh I'm also not saying that's the only thing that went wrong, it's just one part of a plan to get better.


1. Sit stars who have brain farts, make them accountable for questionable play

2. Sit players who don't stand up for their team mates

3. Get nastier as an organization

I'll stop there don't want to get too off topic, I just think if there was a deterrent to hitting the teams stars, it would lead to less cheap shots, and cut down on the frustration that Mal kin and Crosby feel.

Darth Vitale 06-21-2013 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BreakfastatMarios (Post 67774587)
When Chara punched Sid in the jaw he did it cause he knew nobody would step up and make them accountable.

This is simplistic way of thinking that we see a lot around here. I think it's part of the Pittsburgh mindset / ethic. Smash-mouth, Steelers mindset carries the day. Even in hockey, somehow.

What I'm telling you is, when you get to the playoffs, guys like Chara will pay the price. If he thinks he has to fight some goon and take a pounding in order to take the Penguins' offense off its game by roughing up Sid, he's going to rough up Sid. It wouldn't change anything. Chara is not afraid of anyone, dude. He's frickin 6'8" or whatever and has plenty of mean streak in him.

When you run into teams as big and strong as Boston, no enforcer is going to change their gameplan with respect to Crosby or Malkin or whoever. They're going to play how they're going to play and no fight is going to deter them. All you'll succeed in doing is making it easier for the other team to score when our goon is on the ice. Especially in the playoffs when everything is faster paced. Imagine the Bruins 3rd and 4th lines, which both have good scoring elements, going up against a slow-footed clod like Mac. They'd tear him apart offensively. A permanent 5 on 4 for them, every shift he plays.

TheSniper26 06-21-2013 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BreakfastatMarios (Post 67774587)
When Chara punched Sid in the jaw he did it cause he knew nobody would step up and make them accountable.

I'm not saying it has to be Big Mac necessarily just someone who's going to stand up for his team mates, and will drop the gloves.

Oh I'm also not saying that's the only thing that went wrong, it's just one part of a plan to get better.


1. Sit stars who have brain farts, make them accountable for questionable play

2. Sit players who don't stand up for their team mates

3. Get nastier as an organization

I'll stop there don't want to get too off topic, I just think if there was a deterrent to hitting the teams stars, it would lead to less cheap shots, and cut down on the frustration that Mal kin and Crosby feel.

There is no deterrent. Nobody is scared of another team having a fighter. These are grown men who are paid a lot of money to give guys like Sid and Geno a hard time. Anybody that thinks those guys will suddenly be too scared to do their job because we have some useless oaf on the roster is living in a fantasy world.

The instigator rule makes enforcers totally pointless. All they can do is fight a guy that agrees to fight which is usually just the other team's fighter. It's not like they can just grab some guy and start throwing haymakers and, even if they did, they'd just be tossed anyway and that would be the end of it.

There's one way to beat a team that's taking liberties: Score on the ensuing PP. We didn't.

IPreferPi 06-21-2013 09:06 AM

Phoenix HFers would be more than happy to give BizNasty to you for a bag of pucks. :-) And it seems he isn't utterly useless on the ice either, he had a 3 game point streak this year and 6 assists overall.

Darth Vitale 06-21-2013 09:07 AM

Might be worth it just for the Tweets and interactions with Geno in the media.

khaoskennedy 06-21-2013 09:07 AM

We don't need a pure enforcer they are useless.

We already have Engelland for a 6th/7th Dman and hes a good fighter.

Wouldnt mind replacing Tanner Glass with a better player who can also fight, but thats about it.

Darth Vitale 06-21-2013 09:10 AM

Wouldn't mind drafting a couple Lucic types with our 3rd rounders this year, if any such players be available. Might take 3 years for them to make the jump but we need some home-grown power forward types (guys with a lot more strength and edge than Tangradi had so please don't bring him up).

Jag68Sid87 06-21-2013 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale (Post 67774039)
When you get to the playoffs, the value of an enforcer on the ice (enough that he deters people), is a value to the other team. Nearly all enforcers (including and especially Mac), cannot play hockey at a high enough level to avoid being a constant liability against good playoff teams. Enforcers on the ice today, lead to goals for the other team. It's that simple. This isn't 1982. Even a guy like Laraque in his prime, who could play pretty well for a fighter, would not have changed anything this post-season. Not one thing.

An enforcer is not the answer to anything. And as we finished 1st in the East this year without icing a fighter more than a couple times, you can't even argue that that's how we "got that far".

The kind of toughness we need has nothing to do with enforcers. We need Lucic types not goons. Guys who are big, physically aggressive, but who can actually play the game well when needed. Guys like Murray too (although he's getting older). Fighting is only a peripheral part of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale (Post 67775007)
Wouldn't mind drafting a couple Lucic types with our 3rd rounders this year, if any such players be available. Might take 3 years for them to make the jump but we need some home-grown power forward types (guys with a lot more strength and edge than Tangradi had so please don't bring him up).


Ahh I see you're being realistic, CV! :)

Lucic types? There's only one in the NHL right now. Good luck with that. Everybody wants one. Everybody. Everybody drafts 2-3 players every draft and hope they become Lucic one day. They don't come along very often. Think Halley's Comet.

Vujtek 06-21-2013 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 (Post 67775311)
A
Lucic types? There's only one in the NHL right now. Good luck with that. Everybody wants one. Everybody. Everybody drafts 2-3 players every draft and hope they become Lucic one day. They don't come along very often. Think Halley's Comet.

And teams usually reach to draft those guys if there's any prospects who project to become a good power forwards. Columbus took Dalton Smith with 34th overall pick and Edmonton took Mitch Moroz with 32nd overall pick. So teams use early 2nd rounders for that type of players these days. And it's fair to say neither of those will became even close to the player Lucic is.

Ogelthorpe 06-21-2013 09:58 AM

I wonder what Georges is up to these days?

MichiganWolverines 06-21-2013 10:03 AM

A player like Brandon Mashinter would be perfect on the pens. He is a good light-heavyweight who can play the game of hockey effectively.

I would dress Steve MacIntyre for games against tougher teams. But, that is never going to happen because of Dan Bylsma and Mario Lemieux.

Ogrezilla 06-21-2013 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichiganWolverines (Post 67776551)
A player like Brandon Mashinter would be perfect on the pens. He is a good light-heavyweight who can play the game of hockey effectively.

I would dress Steve MacIntyre for games against tougher teams. But, that is never going to happen because of Dan Bylsma and Mario Lemieux.

and because we'd have to keep a roster spot open for a guy that can't play hockey

MichiganWolverines 06-21-2013 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ogrezilla (Post 67776659)
and because we'd have to keep a roster spot open for a guy that can't play hockey

Yup.


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