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-   -   Going into full rebuild is bad idea (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1452453)

BloFan4Life 06-24-2013 08:54 AM

Going into full rebuild is bad idea
 
I just don't think its the right time to go into this "rebuild." To me, we are not in position to get high quality young stars and when that happens, you just end up in bigger trouble. You start to just struggle year after year, and this place becomes even more less desirable.

IMO, there are enough quality offensive players that will be up for the taking. Guys are getting bought out and guys like Cam are requesting trades. I think we could build a very nice team that makes the playoffs this season and is exciting.

A young team doesn't necessary mean an exciting team with loads of potential. It could easily mean just a crap team that should be in the AHL. For every Pitt and Chicago, who actually were in position to acquire top level talent, there are teams like Florida, Edmonton and Atlanta/Winn that just don't take that jump.

TCRF 06-24-2013 09:07 AM

I like this view. I don't think the Sabres have to do a full blown rebuild, because of some reasons you mentioned. In addition to them, the farm seems like it has some nice players growing into it for the team too. Then a few players (Myers/Ennis are the two on my mind) can still straighten it out for the long run, especially Myers. I don't think we see playoffs here next season, but '15 I do.

SabresAreScaryGood 06-24-2013 09:10 AM

You draft the top players, you spend money to surround those players and you win. Its that simple. Its not easy to win a cup, but you need elite players to even be in contention.

TCRF 06-24-2013 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SabresAreScaryGood (Post 67890317)
You draft the top players, you spend money to surround those players and you win. Its that simple.

The spending $$$ part shouldn't be a problem. I think a good question is to ask who to spend it on without being ridiculous about it.

BloFan4Life 06-24-2013 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guess What (Post 67890247)
I like this view. I don't think the Sabres have to do a full blown rebuild, because of some reasons you mentioned. In addition to them, the farm seems like it has some nice players growing into it for the team too. Then a few players (Myers/Ennis are the two on my mind) can still straighten it out for the long run, especially Myers. I don't think we see playoffs here next season, but '15 I do.

I disagree. Getting some higher quality, older players puts us in the playoffs IMO.

Like you said we have so really nice players. I worry that these players aren't ready to really take on the responsibility and because of that, they will never live up to expectations here. Guys like Roy, Vanek and Pominville were so great early on because of the top guys like Briere, Drury and Grier. I just worry of an ever revolving door of these mid tier young players just coming in and out and never getting the right mix. A full on rebuild doesn't mean success.

Chainshot 06-24-2013 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BloFan4Life (Post 67889893)
I just don't think its the right time to go into this "rebuild." To me, we are not in position to get high quality young stars and when that happens, you just end up in bigger trouble. You start to just struggle year after year, and this place becomes even more less desirable.

IMO, there are enough quality offensive players that will be up for the taking. Guys are getting bought out and guys like Cam are requesting trades. I think we could build a very nice team that makes the playoffs this season and is exciting.

A young team doesn't necessary mean an exciting team with loads of potential. It could easily mean just a crap team that should be in the AHL. For every Pitt and Chicago, who actually were in position to acquire top level talent, there are teams like Florida, Edmonton and Atlanta/Winn that just don't take that jump.

Yes, there is no guarantee of success going into a full rebuild. When exactly are they supposed to try to close the talent gap they have between the Cup contenders and where they sit now?

TCRF 06-24-2013 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BloFan4Life (Post 67890375)
I disagree. Getting some higher quality, older players puts us in the playoffs IMO.

Like you said we have so really nice players. I worry that these players aren't ready to really take on the responsibility and because of that, they will never live up to expectations here. Guys like Roy, Vanek and Pominville were so great early on because of the top guys like Briere, Drury and Grier. I just worry of an ever revolving door of these mid tier young players just coming in and out and never getting the right mix. A full on rebuild doesn't mean success.

Like you, I worry about the young players coming up won't be given/handling responsibility correctly. In my eyes vets are important for that reason, like you said, Drury, Briere, etc. paved a good road for these guys now. I think the team does need some outside pieces, some with a backbone stronger to help teach the prospects and young players.

SabresAreScaryGood 06-24-2013 09:22 AM

There will be some vets on the team, Leino, Ott, and Stafford. Maybe they sign another forward and a D.

wunderpanda 06-24-2013 09:40 AM

The idea of a starting a rebuild is being overstated. We have already seen Gaustad, Rivet, Connolly, Roy, Regehr, Lalime and Leopold replaced since 2011, not really very much left. Can moving Vanek, Miller and Stafford be considered starting a rebuild? Most of the team have been Sabres for 2 years or less.

Chainshot 06-24-2013 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wunderpanda (Post 67891233)
The idea of a starting a rebuild is being overstated. We have already seen Gaustad, Rivet, Connolly, Roy, Regehr, Lalime and Leopold replaced since 2011, not really very much left. Can moving Vanek, Miller and Stafford be considered starting a rebuild? Most of the team have been Sabres for 2 years or less.

Moving Vanek, Miller and perhaps Stafford is more the end of the purge than the beginning of a rebuild. You are correct, it has already started.

haseoke39 06-24-2013 09:55 AM

I mean, if it's not a plan that somehow gets us to the players picked at the top of the draft, I haven't heard another plan that I consider viable. The OP basically is saying sit and wait and hope that the guys we have now turn out to be the core of the cup winning team. Great. That's been Darcy's mantra since before the Lewinsky scandal rocked the Clinton administration.

Beerz 06-24-2013 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haseoke39 (Post 67891709)
I mean, if it's not a plan that somehow gets us to the players picked at the top of the draft, I haven't heard another plan that I consider viable. The OP basically is saying sit and wait and hope that the guys we have now turn out to be the core of the cup winning team. Great. That's been Darcy's mantra since before the Lewinsky scandal rocked the Clinton administration.

Wonder if Pegula and Clinton ever shared a cigar together.

brian_griffin 06-24-2013 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BloFan4Life (Post 67889893)
I just don't think its the right time to go into this "rebuild." To me, we are not in position to get high quality young stars and when that happens, you just end up in bigger trouble. You start to just struggle year after year, and this place becomes even more less desirable.

IMO, there are enough quality offensive players that will be up for the taking. Guys are getting bought out and guys like Cam are requesting trades. I think we could build a very nice team that makes the playoffs this season and is exciting.

A young team doesn't necessary mean an exciting team with loads of potential. It could easily mean just a crap team that should be in the AHL. For every Pitt and Chicago, who actually were in position to acquire top level talent, there are teams like Florida, Edmonton and Atlanta/Winn that just don't take that jump.

How is that possibility you cite - entering a rebuild and struggling year after year - different from the recent reality of not entering a rebuild and struggling year after year?

Yes, BUF may become less desirable for a few years, but how many potential roster players/slots would be less enamored with Buffalo the rebuilding team vs. Buffalo the retooling team? I'll estimate it as 1-2 roster players/slots per year on a 23-man roster, and for 2-3 years. I assume 1 or more of those slots would have been a mutli-year contract signing.

Assume there are 3 categories of players:
1. Those UFAs who want to sign in BUF.
2. Those who will sign depending on Sabres outlook.
3. Those UFAs who will never sign in BUF.
So, a declared rebuild pushes some UFAs from category 2 to category 3.

Regardless, I don't think 1 or 2 UFA signings over the next couple years are the difference between BUF competing for the Cup or not.

Moreover, the UFA crop is weak next couple years.

I also believe the majority of NHL clubs will behave similarly under the new CBA with constricted cap: (A) sign their home-grown high quality RFAs to deals which purchase UFA years at good mutual value to club and player; (B) Recognize when several high quality youth on ELCs are contributing well above their value, and use available cap money on high-quality UFA's or rentals to make a deep playoff push.

The goal is the conference finals. Anything thereafter hinges on luck / injuries.

Workensons 06-24-2013 10:09 AM

Considering what Bernier returned yesterday, I think Miller's stock rose. If he truly gets dealt, we probably get a young top 6 forward and a defenseman and one smaller piece (a pick or something). After that, the lineup looks a bit better immediately. We have the young talent to compete as early as next year. Just need to find the right complimentary pieces.

JLewyB 06-24-2013 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wunderpanda (Post 67891233)
The idea of a starting a rebuild is being overstated. We have already seen Gaustad, Rivet, Connolly, Roy, Regehr, Lalime and Leopold replaced since 2011, not really very much left. Can moving Vanek, Miller and Stafford be considered starting a rebuild? Most of the team have been Sabres for 2 years or less.

Agreed. In essence, we already tried the "reload" option when we signed Ehrhoff, Leino and traded for Regehr. Our roster was alledgely in a better position to "win now" when we made those moves then what it is perceived to be now. Trying to reload a team that's worse off now then the first time we tried it just shouldn't work.

Woodhouse 06-24-2013 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BloFan4Life (Post 67889893)
I just don't think its the right time to go into this "rebuild." To me, we are not in position to get high quality young stars and when that happens, you just end up in bigger trouble. You start to just struggle year after year, and this place becomes even more less desirable.

IMO, there are enough quality offensive players that will be up for the taking. Guys are getting bought out and guys like Cam are requesting trades. I think we could build a very nice team that makes the playoffs this season and is exciting.

A young team doesn't necessary mean an exciting team with loads of potential. It could easily mean just a crap team that should be in the AHL. For every Pitt and Chicago, who actually were in position to acquire top level talent, there are teams like Florida, Edmonton and Atlanta/Winn that just don't take that jump.

With divisional playoffs and realignment, we're going to have to defeat our division consistently. We've drawn five 2013 playoff teams in BOS, DET, MTL, OTT and TOR, with three advancing at least one round -- plus, BOS is battling for their second Cup in three years.

Two of the 2013 top-3 prospects are slated to be drafted by FLA and TBL (who already have one star in Stamkos). Then, factor in the AHL affiliates by Calder Cup appearances -- DET ('13 winners), OTT ('11 winners), TBL ('12 winners; '13 runner-up) and TOR ('12 runner-up) -- and you see the futures look bright for much of our division, especially as their prospects break into the league.

Furthermore, BOS and DET are destinations for UFAs. MTL and TOR also have the finances to compete for anyone and will join them as destinations if they can re-establish themselves as playoff contenders. These four locales also produce many players and can recruit players to come home. Florida has weather and tax appeal.

Now, considering all that, why wouldn't we continue to rebuild the right way? It looks like a tough road ahead even with a retool, so do it right, inject youthful talent through the drafts/purge and don't muck it up by putting band-aids on our talent problem.

BackGroundMusic 06-24-2013 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chainshot (Post 67891385)
Moving Vanek, Miller and perhaps Stafford is more the end of the purge than the beginning of a rebuild. You are correct, it has already started.

I really would love to see Vanek retire a Sabres-for-life, but I'm warming to the idea of finishing the purge as you put it.

struckbyaparkedcar 06-24-2013 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chainshot (Post 67890417)
Yes, there is no guarantee of success going into a full rebuild. When exactly are they supposed to try to close the talent gap they have between the Cup contenders and where they sit now?

Successfully develop Myers/Hodgson/Ennis. Get contributing NHL seasons from Larsson/Grigs/Girgs/Pysyk. Make playoffs by '15, possibly even next season with right development and signings.

You still have 8th/16th in the pipeline plus wherever we draft next season and picks to put the team over the top (Pronger trade, Richards trade, etc), or our young team with upside is finally enough to attract a few UFAs with ties to the area (a-la Minny).

Jame 06-24-2013 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BloFan4Life (Post 67890375)
I disagree. Getting some higher quality, older players puts us in the playoffs IMO.

so, all we need to do is get Roy, Pommer, Regehr, Goose, and Leopold back....

oh wait...

I don't even understand the purpose of this thread... we ARE in full rebuild. just accept it.

Afinogretzky 06-24-2013 10:43 AM

so we acquire some vets, sneak into the 8th spot, lose in the first round, and repeat 2008-2012 all over again! word.

if the goal is to win a cup, you need to get actual talent worthy of winning the cup. not put bandaids on a crappy roster. 2014 should deliver a top 3-4 pick. at that point we may have 9-10 excellent prospects who should be the core of a team ready to explode in 2016ish.

thatshype 06-24-2013 10:47 AM

Not a Sabres fan, but I agree with Woodhouse's analysis of your team.


And as an outside observer, what players do you have on your team or in your pipeline that you guys consider part of the rebuild? I imagine we're talking about Grigerenko, Girgenson, Adam, Foligno, Hodgson, Pysyk. I know you guys are somewhat split on whether or not Myers should be part of the rebuild. How are you feeling about Ennis, Gerbe, and Sekera moving forward?

Afinogretzky 06-24-2013 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thatshype (Post 67893537)
Not a Sabres fan, but I agree with Woodhouse's analysis of your team.


And as an outside observer, what players do you have on your team or in your pipeline that you guys consider part of the rebuild? I imagine we're talking about Grigerenko, Girgenson, Adam, Foligno, Hodgson, Pysyk. I know you guys are somewhat split on whether or not Myers should be part of the rebuild. How are you feeling about Ennis, Gerbe, and Sekera moving forward?

- Flip Adam for Armia
- Add McCabe and hopefully McNabb
- Feel good about Ennis being a top 6 winger
- Sekera should be good trade bait

joshjull 06-24-2013 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jame (Post 67893121)
so, all we need to do is get Roy, Pommer, Regehr, Goose, and Leopold back....

oh wait...

I don't even understand the purpose of this thread... we ARE in full rebuild. just accept it.

Pretty much

Chainshot 06-24-2013 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar (Post 67893065)
Successfully develop Myers/Hodgson/Ennis. Get contributing NHL seasons from Larsson/Grigs/Girgs/Pysyk. Make playoffs by '15, possibly even next season with right development and signings.

You still have 8th/16th in the pipeline plus wherever we draft next season and picks to put the team over the top (Pronger trade, Richards trade, etc), or our young team with upside is finally enough to attract a few UFAs with ties to the area (a-la Minny).

That all looks like rebuilding to me -- continued development of youngsters, continued building of young asset pool, maximize value on potential departures. *shrug*

All the while, using resources to both interview and impress youngsters (the Sabres own draft camp), scout (the new staff) and leverage collegiate level free agency since the team is both an opportunity destination since they are in flux as well as having the money to no longer have to squeeze years of control (the Ruhwedel situation as an example).

Paxon 06-24-2013 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thatshype (Post 67893537)
Not a Sabres fan, but I agree with Woodhouse's analysis of your team.


And as an outside observer, what players do you have on your team or in your pipeline that you guys consider part of the rebuild? I imagine we're talking about Grigerenko, Girgenson, Adam, Foligno, Hodgson, Pysyk. I know you guys are somewhat split on whether or not Myers should be part of the rebuild. How are you feeling about Ennis, Gerbe, and Sekera moving forward?

Gerbe doesn't really have a place in the NHL. Sekera is vital to our defense. I feel good about Ennis being a top 6 winger, he's improved his defense and puck battle. Just need to get him with players who can maximize his talents. The Adam ship has sailed, he should be moved so he can get a fresh start. Girgensons is my favorite prospect. Pysyk projects to be a top 4 rock for a long time. Hodgson is a key to our offense going forward but desperately needs to improve his defense. Grigorenko has a lot he needs to do to be an NHL player, but he should be considered part of the core for the time being as his high-end is very high.

Only a few people here really feel Myers shouldn't be part of the rebuild. Most others are simply willing to move him in a package that lets us draft MacKinnon (or at least Barkov in some cases).


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