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-   -   Goalies and the Conn Smythe Trophy (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1453951)

CriminallyVu1gar 06-25-2013 05:32 PM

Goalies and the Conn Smythe Trophy
 
Starting this here instead of the general forums because I think in having Hasek, and to a lesser extent Miller, we have a love affair with the concept of a goalie putting a team on their back.

Goalies have won the most CS trophies (16, tied with centers) to 9 for defensemen, and 7 for wingers. This seems ridiculous to me, especially given recent history. For as much as Tim Thomas and Jonathan Quick put up gaudy numbers, and were very, very good, what I also remember from those campaigns is the Bruins D being phenomenally good at clearing rebounds, and the Kings skaters making the opposition attack look downright sterile at times.

My preference would be that the last Conn Smythe winning goalie would be J.S. Giguere whose team seemed to want to do as little as possible in front of him. Granted I can see the flaw in accolades being dependent upon teammates sucking, but it seems ridiculous to so often lionize the goalie when a large percentage of their success is dependent on who's in front of them. (Or perhaps there's just a fundamental problem with trying to give out individual awards in hockey.)

haseoke39 06-25-2013 05:44 PM

In before Jame.

Beerz 06-25-2013 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CriminallyVu1gar (Post 67988707)
Starting this here instead of the general forums because I think in having Hasek, and to a lesser extent Miller, we have a love affair with the concept of a goalie putting a team on their back.

Goalies have won the most CS trophies (16, tied with centers) to 9 for defensemen, and 7 for wingers. This seems ridiculous to me, especially given recent history. For as much as Tim Thomas and Jonathan Quick put up gaudy numbers, and were very, very good, what I also remember from those campaigns is the Bruins D being phenomenally good at clearing rebounds, and the Kings skaters making the opposition attack look downright sterile at times.

My preference would be that the last Conn Smythe winning goalie would be J.S. Giguere whose team seemed to want to do as little as possible in front of him. Granted I can see the flaw in accolades being dependent upon teammates sucking, but it seems ridiculous to so often lionize the goalie when a large percentage of their success is dependent on who's in front of them. (Or perhaps there's just a fundamental problem with trying to give out individual awards in hockey.)

Giving the Goalie the Conn is basically honoring the defense as a whole. A dman is not going to win it unless he puts up huge offensive numbers.

haseoke39 06-25-2013 05:50 PM

In all seriousness, if a defense clears rebounds really well, then that's 6 players working together. Is any goalie more valuable than 6 good defensemen, put together? Nope. Are there a few teams where the goalie is more valuable than any of its individual defensemen? Yep. I think Tim Thomas was sensational. He set the record for most saves in a playoffs and most saves in a finals that year.

Myllz 06-25-2013 05:52 PM

You could pretty much make this argument for any position. If a winger or center wins it, you could credit his entire line for helping him put up points. Or the powerplay unit as a whole if there were lots of points on special teams. If someone on defense wins it, you could credit his partner of even a checking line for shutdown duties. Same goes with the line he's working with while putting up points. The CS winner pretty much always owes a huge portion of the credit to his line/partner/unit(s)/defense.

CriminallyVu1gar 06-25-2013 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myllz (Post 67989643)
You could pretty much make this argument for any position. If a winger or center wins it, you could credit his entire line for helping him put up points. Or the powerplay unit as a whole if there were lots of points on special teams. If someone on defense wins it, you could credit his partner of even a checking line for shutdown duties. Same goes with the line he's working with while putting up points. The CS winner pretty much always owes a huge portion of the credit to his line/partner/unit(s)/defense.

Yeah, hockey really is probably the worst sport for individual awards. Quarterbacks, Pitchers, and Basketball good shooty guys (I don't watch basketball) can all take over a game to a far greater extent than anyone in hockey.

Maybe Goalie CS winners just bother me because I don't play goalie. :) Or maybe as a Buffalo fan and therefore an expert on awesome goaltending, I don't want to see the CS diluted with goaltending winners to make true standouts shine brighter.

aceface33 06-25-2013 06:07 PM

I'm going to use this thread to complain again about Cam Ward winning the Conn Smythe in a playoff year where he was pulled for his bad play.

CriminallyVu1gar 06-25-2013 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceface33 (Post 67990349)
I'm going to use this thread to complain again about Cam Ward winning the Conn Smythe in a playoff year where he was pulled for his bad play.

Haha, I'm going to use your bringing up of the topic to complain about the Canes winning a cup on an entire roster of players have statistical outlier seasons. Cory Stillman 26pts in 25 games! Frank Kaberle!

Jacob582 06-26-2013 02:30 AM

I've been thinking of this same topic when I hear about the price the forwards and defenseman have to pay to win the Cup. Injuries galore.

Better Call Saul 06-26-2013 04:06 AM

Thomas in 2011: .940 save percentage, four shutouts, eight goals allowed in seven-game SCF despite facing 246 shots (.967 sv%).

There's no arguing against Thomas as the Conn Smythe winner. He was the logical choice after facing a whopping 849 shots in the 2011 playoffs (Quick only dealt with 538 last year) and still managing to turn in a superhuman performance, as cited above.

Rob Paxon 06-26-2013 04:55 AM

It happens more often than it should but when all else is equal it's understandable that the goalie is the easy choice. In many ways, choosing a goalie means choosing the team, at least the team's defense.

Clearly there are goalies who deserve to win. It often takes a goalie on an incredible hot streak to get far in the playoffs. I'm glad Crawford didn't win because I wasn't overly impressed with what he had to do despite the numbers being strong. I had Kane as the winner myself. Keith would have also been a good choice. Either of those two probably should have won it last time, too.

stokes84 06-26-2013 08:11 AM

I agree with the OP. People whinning about Crawford getting snubbed are terrible. The guy had some really good moments, but so would any goalie that gets that far. He almost blew it when he had the turnover that led to the Lucic goal, and the 5 goal disaster in game 4. If he would have won the award, they should've just changed it to the Winning Teams Goalie Award. Thank goodness they got it right.

SackTastic 06-26-2013 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceface33 (Post 67990349)
I'm going to use this thread to complain again about Cam Ward winning the Conn Smythe in a playoff year where he was pulled for his bad play.

This is one of the few goaltender C.S. awards that I really disagree with, and for exactly the reason you mention.

Although one could make the argument that if you suck that bad that you have to be pulled, you're more valuable on the bench. I'd listen to that. :p

I think a bigger problem with the award is that the PHWA are the only people who vote on it, and that votes have to be in 10 minutes before the end of a game. I saw one of the TSN guys comment that he had no vote, and frankly I think TSN interns know more about the game than half of the PHWA. Plus, it's 2013. You're telling me they can't make a phone app for voting, and insta-tally it in the 10 minutes from the end of the game until awards are presented?

haseoke39 06-26-2013 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SackTastic (Post 68016881)
Plus, it's 2013. You're telling me they can't make a phone app for voting, and insta-tally it in the 10 minutes from the end of the game until awards are presented?

It's the NHL. Darcy's still trying to fax his vote in.

CriminallyVu1gar 06-26-2013 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stokes84 (Post 68012505)
I agree with the OP. People whinning about Crawford getting snubbed are terrible. The guy had some really good moments, but so would any goalie that gets that far. He almost blew it when he had the turnover that led to the Lucic goal, and the 5 goal disaster in game 4. If he would have won the award, they should've just changed it to the Winning Teams Goalie Award. Thank goodness they got it right.

And I think if a part of your game is constantly talked about as a major glaring weakness you're kind of disqualified as well.


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