HFBoards

HFBoards (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/index.php)
-   The History of Hockey (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/forumdisplay.php?f=126)
-   -   Why isn't Wayne Gretzky a 4-time Conn Smythe Trophy winner? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1457173)

Ruston* 06-29-2013 07:15 PM

Why isn't Wayne Gretzky a 4-time Conn Smythe Trophy winner?
 
1984 seems like the media voted for Messie to spite Gretz, especially since it was Wayne's first Cup. Didn't want to hand him everything just yet. Gretzky posted 35 points that spring. No one else even hit 30. Heck, Messier's 8 goals were pedestrian on that Oilers squad.

In 1987, Gretzky posted 29 assists, which, by itself, is more than anyone else had points. Was Hextall's performance that much better than another legendary Gretzky performance? Or was the media blown away that a team could take the mighty Oilers to 7?

Killion 06-29-2013 11:09 PM

Your clearly intimating bias... and your correct. Gretzky was for many a repugnant outlier
freak job. Shafted. So what? You think he needs our help to set the record straight?...

JoeCool16 06-29-2013 11:14 PM

I don't know what else to say besides "intangibles" and shrug. I wasn't there watching but the points difference is pretty staggering. Maybe someone who was watching at the time can help?

Killion 06-29-2013 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeCool16 (Post 68237069)
I don't know what else to say besides "intangibles" and shrug. I wasn't there watching but the points difference is pretty staggering. Maybe someone who was watching at the time can help?

Gretzky was given short shrift by the media, pundits & observers at that time. Waiting for the bottom to fall out. Many having made their small minds up, obtuse, stubborn thereafter. Didnt matter what he did. Hextall? Junk Goalie and Im an old Goalie. Always rooting for em'. Hextall never. An idiot. Inconsistent. Not honest.

TheDevilMadeMe 06-29-2013 11:27 PM

Honestly, 1984 and 1987 probably were partly the media looking for someone to give the award to other than Gretzky.

Here's an article about the 1984 Cup:

Quote:

Still, the Islanders took a quick lead in Game 3 on a goal by Gillies, and went ahead 2-1 early in the second period when he scored again -- the left winger's fifth goal in less than three games. But a goal by Mark Messier turned the game -- and the series -- in the Oilers' favor.

"We had the lead and Messier's goal turned the game around," Potvin says of the most spectacular tally of the series, in which Messier made a fake that sent defenseman Gord Dineen to the ice and beat Smith to tie the game at 2. "I think from that point, the Oilers began sensing for the first time that they could beat us. They got better and better."

The Oilers kept pressing and took the lead in the final minute of the second period on goals 17 seconds apart by Glenn Anderson and Paul Coffey, then blew the game open in the third period for a 7-2 victory and a 2-1 lead in the series.

Hunter wasn't surprised that Messier was the one whose goal turned the series around.

"Mark was like a pit bull�a great leader who led by example," Hunter says. "When someone makes a play like Mark did, it pumps up the whole bench."

The Oilers cruised to another 7-2 victory in Game 4 -- as Gretzky finally scored -- and because of the new format, had the chance to clinch the series at home. Gretzky scored twice more in the first period of Game 5 and goals by Ken Linseman and Jari Kurri made it 4-0 after two periods.
http://www.nhl.com/intheslot/read/im...l/oilers2.html

Seems that the Islanders had Gretzky fairly well contained until Messier turned the series around.

I know that older fans say that at one point, Messier also knocked Denis Potvin on his ass with a bodycheck, which destroyed Potvin's aura of invincibility and helped give the Oilers confidence.

Psycho Papa Joe 06-29-2013 11:29 PM

No issue with Messier winning in 84. It was the greatest all round performance of his career.

In 87, I think Gretzky was the victim of a vote split among a few oilers, whereas Hextall was the only Flyer getting votes.

Too be honest, I would have given it to Glen Anderson in 87.

Killion 06-29-2013 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 68237815)
I know that older fans say that at one point, Messier also knocked Denis Potvin on his ass with a bodycheck, which destroyed Potvin's aura of invincibility and helped give the Oilers confidence.

Interesting TDMM. I remember that check, moment in time. And your quite correct. Ive tried to forget about the 80's, 90's. Bowman & his Locks. But ya, interesting that you bring that up. Seminal.

reckoning 06-30-2013 12:05 AM

In 1987, Gretzky suffered a mild concussion in the last game of the Winnipeg series. Didn't miss any games, but any lingering effects from it may explain why he wasn't as dominant in the Detroit or Philadelphia series as he usually was throughout his career.

quoipourquoi 06-30-2013 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 68237815)
Seems that the Islanders had Gretzky fairly well contained until Messier turned the series around.

I know that older fans say that at one point, Messier also knocked Denis Potvin on his ass with a bodycheck, which destroyed Potvin's aura of invincibility and helped give the Oilers confidence.


Added to that:

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Johnson of The Calgary Herald
The destruction he could wreak was perhaps never better exhibited than in Game 7 of the 1984 series against the rival Flames.

That night, Messier proved to be a one-man war of attrition, knocking three Calgary players out of action during the decisive third period. Paul Reinhart had long since been stretchered off; Mike Eaves lay crumpled like a discarded cigarette pack in a corner after being run over ("It was as if he got hit by a bus," recalled Oilers goaltender Grant Fuhr. "There were tire tracks running up and down his back."); and Al MacInnis exited early after being cut down by a knee injury. All courtesy of one man.

Carnage. Sheer carnage. Messier carnage.

"That Messier!" Flames coach Badger Bob Johnson would growl after that game. "That Messier! He knocked three of our guys out of the game! Three! That was " He stammered. "That was " He glowered. "That was " He paced the hallway, apparently enraged at the injustice of it all. "That was " His face lapsed into a look above appreciation, arguably approaching awe. "Amazing!"


As for 1987, if Hextall and the Flyers didn't extend the series, it's probably going to either Anderson or Messier for what they did in the Conference Finals while Wayne Gretzky was concussed. Their line scored 8 of the Oilers' 16 goals while the Gretzky/Kurri line added just one.

LeBlondeDemon10 06-30-2013 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killion (Post 68237685)
Gretzky was given short shrift by the media, pundits & observers at that time. Waiting for the bottom to fall out. Many having made their small minds up, obtuse, stubborn thereafter. Didnt matter what he did.

Yeah, I agree. Didn't really receive his due from the media until possibly after the 87 CC, maybe even after he was traded and it got so cold in Edmonton/Canada (-99). Before that, like you said '4rth line center on the 42 Leafs'. He easily could have won the 84 CS, but the media chose to focus on the one big play of the series, Messier's goal. Without a doubt, I think they chose a CS winner that looked like a hockey player as opposed to the nerdish looking Gretzky who the media still hadn't learned to appreciate (and to that end many doubting hockey fans in Canada). 87? Probably Gretzky's tearing apart the record books had an influence on 'let's give it to someone else for a change'. Plus Hextall looked like a hockey player and played a dirty game, something many Canadians valued. A farce in my books.

vadim sharifijanov 06-30-2013 01:07 PM

probably the same reason orr isn't a 6 time hart winner.

seventieslord 07-01-2013 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov (Post 68269649)
probably the same reason orr isn't a 6 time hart winner.

Pretty much.

That Orr he doesn't have six harts doesn't mean he wasn't the best and most valuable player in the NHL (at least) six times, and that Gretzky doesn't have four smythes doesn't mean he wasn't the best and most valuable player in the playoffs four times.

pdd 07-01-2013 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 68401323)
that Gretzky doesn't have four smythes doesn't mean he wasn't the best and most valuable player in the playoffs four times.

It does when Messier is being discussed. :shakehead

Quote:

Originally Posted by quoipourquoi (Post 68248023)
Added to that:

As for 1987, if Hextall and the Flyers didn't extend the series, it's probably going to either Anderson or Messier for what they did in the Conference Finals while Wayne Gretzky was concussed. Their line scored 8 of the Oilers' 16 goals while the Gretzky/Kurri line added just one.

Ah yes, those five-game concussions. The ones that see you suddenly perk right back up to form the moment you're playing a different team. Or, alternatively, Gretzky was shut down. If he was not scoring due to his concussion, then he would have continued to not score. Accept and move on.

pdd 07-01-2013 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reckoning (Post 68239741)
In 1987, Gretzky suffered a mild concussion in the last game of the Winnipeg series. Didn't miss any games, but any lingering effects from it may explain why he wasn't as dominant in the Detroit or Philadelphia series as he usually was throughout his career.

Lingering effects from concussions may include:
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/6...etire05sg9.jpg

pdd 07-01-2013 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe (Post 68237975)
No issue with Messier winning in 84. It was the greatest all round performance of his career.

In 87, I think Gretzky was the victim of a vote split among a few oilers, whereas Hextall was the only Flyer getting votes.

Too be honest, I would have given it to Glen Anderson in 87.

Anderson helped, but Messier was the reason the Oilers beat the Wings; Yzerman contained Gretzky, but Messier did an equal job on Oates. Each scored six points while their counterpart only scored one. Edmonton's superior offensive depth and goaltending made the difference.

Doomsday Device 07-01-2013 03:53 AM

Messier had a lot of the big moments in that '84 playoff run. Awards voting tends to be based more on storyline than performance and Messier made for a better column that playoff run than Gretzky did.

quoipourquoi 07-01-2013 09:53 AM

A few quotes from the 1984 playoffs:


Quote:

Originally Posted by The Boston Globe
Should they prevail, [Mark Messier] stands to reap rewards beyond the shared glory of the Cup. As the triggerman of the Oilers' offense - and the neutralizing force that has helped shackle the Islanders' superlative center, Bryan Trottier - Messier has emerged as the frontrunner for the Conn Smythe Trophy, which is awarded to the most valuable player in the playoffs.

Exploiting his Mr. Universe physique and style, Messier has led an unprcedented Edmonton attack that has throttled the Islanders in Games 1 (a 1-0 victory), 3 and 4. As Wayne Gretzky, another Edmonton center, observed, "Forechecking is the best defense." And Messier has been the Oilers' foremost forechecker.

With 15 games left before the playoffs, Oilers coach Glen Sather decided to shift Messier to center on a line with Glenn Anderson and Willy Lindstrom. On the surface, it seemed like turning Barbra Streisand into a pantomimist, but Sather had his reasons.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Philadelphia Daily News
There are goals and there are goals. There are goals that nobody sees, and there are goals that nobody forgets. There are shots that carom off skate, pad and armpit on their way to the red light, and there are majestic offensive feats on which you could base a movie. Last night in Northlands Coliseum, it was Mark Messier of the Edmonton Oilers, screen-testing for Chariots of Ice.


Quote:

Originally Posted by The Calgary Herald
He is an intimidating sight, Mark Messier is - the new wave leader of hockey's new wave. He has been the most intimidating sight for New York Islanders.

"If the series ends Saturday, he will win the Conn Smythe Trophy," said teammate Dave Lumley.

The myths that have long surrounded Edmonton Oilers are quickly disappearing as are the myths that have surrounded Messier.

Long considered to be living and playing on the fringe, Messier not only has established himself with his Stanley Cup play, but has put to rest any of the Team Gretzky, Edmonton Gretzkys, one-man team commentaries that have so often afflicted the Oilers.


Quote:

Originally Posted by The Boston Globe
Yesterday morning, [Mark Messier] began communicating again. "He told me, I'm going to go out and lead this hockey team," recalled Kevin Lowe, Messier's teammate and housemate. "He's always determined, but he seemed especially so this morning."


Quote:

Originally Posted by The Calgary Herald
It took Trottier, the game's star, exactly 60 minutes and 10 seconds to get into the spirit of the final. The first 60 came in the first game when he made a negligible contribution to the Islanders' 1-0 loss. The 10 seconds came last night, when the Oilers' Mark Messier flattened him with one of the hardest playoff checks in the first minute of the game.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Star-Phoenix (Saskatoon)
And, unlike last spring, forward Mark Messier is healthy. Playing left wing last spring, Messier labored with a separated shoulder in the final and was easily nullified by the hard-checking Islanders.

"Gawd, it's nice to be going into the Stanley Cup final healthy," said Messier, now playing centre. "Last year I was hurt but I really didn't think much about it. I found myself getting caught up in the excitement. Still, the shoulder was significant."

This year the shoulder has been significant because of the solid hits it has been handing out. Those hits, the Oilers realize, will be essential in the final, especially if they again meet the Islanders.

"Mark is so strong and against their big guys, (Bryan) Trottier and (Denis) Potvin especially, that's important," Lowe said.


12 of his 26 points came when the Oilers were trailing (mind you, we're talking about a team with a +38 goal differential in the playoffs), and he only recorded one assist when the Oilers were up by 3+ (compared to Gretzky's five points), so there was a lot of value in the timing of his scoring. I'm not saying Gretzky wasn't playing at an equally high level, but Messier played to the score: he came through offensively when they were down, and he crushed bodies when they were up.

It's a bit of a farce that his Conn Smythe and Harts come under so much fire on HOH. There's enough primary sources out there about Mark Messier that we can say that his awards weren't handed out to "spite" someone else. If you ask me who had the better Game 4 and Game 5 in the Finals, I'd say Gretzky, but there was a lot of Oiler hockey before they started putting more goals past Smith in single games than they did in the totality of the previous Final.

TheDevilMadeMe 07-01-2013 10:02 AM

"and the neutralizing force that has helped shackle the Islanders' superlative center, Bryan Trottier"

Seems Messier's ability to physically neutralize his opposing center goes back quite a long way.

Dark Shadows 07-01-2013 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eva unit zero (Post 68401535)
It does when Messier is being discussed. :shakehead



Ah yes, those five-game concussions. The ones that see you suddenly perk right back up to form the moment you're playing a different team. Or, alternatively, Gretzky was shut down. If he was not scoring due to his concussion, then he would have continued to not score. Accept and move on.

Oh good lord. What is it with you making things up as you go along?
Yzerman and Gretzky were not matched against each other regularly in that series, nor was Oates commonly out against Messier's line as you implied later. The only game I remember them on the ice against each other regularly was game 4. Ill upload games 2, 4 and 5 later if I find time. For the record, Stefan was playing great in net considering his team was getting outplayed. Goaltending was not really an issue that decided this series.

but yes, Messier was excellent in this series.


Gretzky's "mild" concussion was a result of Hawerchuk closelining him, knocking his helmet off before smashing the side of his head into the ice. He had a bump the size of a golfball on his head and had to be helped off the ice. He was definitely not in good shape for a few weeks following that head smashing

Rhiessan71 07-01-2013 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Shadows (Post 68413357)
Oh good lord. What is it with you making things up as you go along?
Yzerman and Gretzky were not matched against each other regularly in that series, nor was Oates commonly out against Messier's line as you implied later. The only game I remember them on the ice against each other regularly was game 4. Ill upload games 2, 4 and 5 later if I find time. For the record, Stefan was playing great in net considering his team was getting outplayed. Goaltending was not really an issue that decided this series.

but yes, Messier was excellent in this series.


Gretzky's "mild" concussion was a result of Hawerchuk closelining him, knocking his helmet off before smashing the side of his head into the ice. He had a bump the size of a golfball on his head and had to be helped off the ice. He was definitely not in good shape for a few weeks following that head smashing

Actually Yzerman was matched up against Gretzky quite often in that series but he also saw a lot of time against the Oilers 3rd and 4th lines.
Any line but Messier's, Demers didn't want #11 any where near Stevie.

DisgruntledGoat 07-01-2013 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quoipourquoi (Post 68409101)
It's a bit of a farce that his Conn Smythe and Harts come under so much fire on HOH. There's enough primary sources out there about Mark Messier that we can say that his awards weren't handed out to "spite" someone else. If you ask me who had the better Game 4 and Game 5 in the Finals, I'd say Gretzky, but there was a lot of Oiler hockey before they started putting more goals past Smith in single games than they did in the totality of the previous Final.

Well said, and excellent post. . . I don't know where you find these old newspapers, but its great reading.

For people who want to talk about, 'storylines', the storyline at the time was that Messier was physically punishing Trottier and Potvin, and scoring clutch goals on Smith. Those are things that no one seemed capable of doing in the four playoffs prior, when the Islanders were rolling over the league. It definitely wasn't, 'let's just give it to someone else this time. . . K, that guy'. Messier earned that Conn Smythe.

Not to say that Gretzky would not have been a fine MVP. It was close, I wouldn't argue it either way (but given that Mess had Smythe-level performances again in 88, 90 and 94; I'm OK with him winning at least this one).

blogofmike 07-01-2013 05:01 PM

Game 2 highlights
Game 3 Highlights
Game 4 Highlights + Gretzky Interview
Game 5 highlights

Given that Yzerman's a -4 in Game 2, it seems odd for eva to pin the blame on Oates. In fact, if any centre is NOT to blame defensively on the 87 Wings, it's Adam Oates.

I understand why eva would say Yzerman shut down Gretzky with superior defensive play, and I'm sure he did in whatever universe eva imagines he lives in, but outside of these boards I've never seen that claim. Anywhere. Ever.

If Yzerman was able to do that defensively surely he would have gotten the kind of recognition that guys like Kasper and Tikkanen got. But he didn't. And judging from a non-concussed Gretzky lighting up the Red Wings in most other encounters, he shouldn't. Because Steve Yzerman didn't shut down anyone.

Yzerman vs Kings 88-95
Gretzky vs Wings 88-95

Dennis Bonvie 07-01-2013 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eva unit zero (Post 68401597)
Lingering effects from concussions may include:
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/6...etire05sg9.jpg

Peter Sellers worked for the Wings?

Dark Shadows 07-01-2013 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blogofmike (Post 68433617)
Game 2 highlights
Game 3 Highlights
Game 4 Highlights + Gretzky Interview
Game 5 highlights

Given that Yzerman's a -4 in Game 2, it seems odd for eva to pin the blame on Oates. In fact, if any centre is NOT to blame defensively on the 87 Wings, it's Adam Oates.

I understand why eva would say Yzerman shut down Gretzky with superior defensive play, and I'm sure he did in whatever universe eva imagines he lives in, but outside of these boards I've never seen that claim. Anywhere. Ever.

If Yzerman was able to do that defensively surely he would have gotten the kind of recognition that guys like Kasper and Tikkanen got. But he didn't. And judging from a non-concussed Gretzky lighting up the Red Wings in most other encounters, he shouldn't. Because Steve Yzerman didn't shut down anyone.

Yzerman vs Kings 88-95
Gretzky vs Wings 88-95

Thank you. That saves me from having to upload the whole games and watch them for refresher (Which takes hours hehe)

Throughout the highlights, I see #11 Shawn Burr being lined up against Gretzky at every opportunity, with the occasional Gretzky vs Yzerman. But *Gasp, Yzerman/Probert out there against Messier/Anderson/Nilsson much more than he is against Gretzky. See a lot of MacTavish when Yzerman is on the ice as well. The commentators never really talk about forwards defending forwards, but do mention a few times how Demers send out Delorme and Norwood when they see #99

Seems my memory was serving me well.

tazzy19 07-01-2013 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blogofmike (Post 68433617)
Game 2 highlights
Game 3 Highlights
Game 4 Highlights + Gretzky Interview
Game 5 highlights

Given that Yzerman's a -4 in Game 2, it seems odd for eva to pin the blame on Oates. In fact, if any centre is NOT to blame defensively on the 87 Wings, it's Adam Oates.

I understand why eva would say Yzerman shut down Gretzky with superior defensive play, and I'm sure he did in whatever universe eva imagines he lives in, but outside of these boards I've never seen that claim. Anywhere. Ever.

If Yzerman was able to do that defensively surely he would have gotten the kind of recognition that guys like Kasper and Tikkanen got. But he didn't. And judging from a non-concussed Gretzky lighting up the Red Wings in most other encounters, he shouldn't. Because Steve Yzerman didn't shut down anyone.

Yzerman vs Kings 88-95
Gretzky vs Wings 88-95

That pretty much sums it up. As usual, brilliant summation. On a side note, it just continues to baffle me how someone (ie, Gretzky) can lead the playoffs in scoring with his assists alone, and we are still reading tripe about him somehow not being that effective. Now I've read it all.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:02 AM.

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com, A property of CraveOnline, a division of AtomicOnline LLC ©2009 CraveOnline Media, LLC. All Rights Reserved.