HFBoards

HFBoards (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/index.php)
-   New York Rangers (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/forumdisplay.php?f=24)
-   -   HFNYR Top Rangers of All Time (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1459579)

Crease 07-02-2013 07:19 AM

HFNYR Top Rangers of All Time
 
These are the top Rangers in franchise history
as determined by the New York Rangers community at HFBoards.
Thank you to all who participated.
Comments are welcome.



Centers

RankNo.PlayerHeightWeightBornDiedTenureBirthplace
1 7 Frank Boucher 5'9 185 10/7/1901 12/12/1977 1926-1938; 1944 Ottawa, Ontario
2 11 Mark Messier 6'2 211 1/18/1961 1991-1997; 2000-2004 Edmonton, Alberta
3 19 Jean Ratelle 6'1 175 10/3/1940 1960-1975 Lac St. Jean, Quebec
4 6 Neil Colville 5'11 175 8/4/1914 12/26/1987 1935-1942; 1944-1949 Edmonton, Alberta
5 7 Phil Watson 5'11 165 4/24/1914 2/1/1991 1935-1943; 1944-1948 Montreal, Quebec
6 18 Walt Tkaczuk 6'0 185 9/29/1947 1968-1981 Emsdetten, Germany
7 10 Edgar Laprade 5'8 160 10/19/1919 1945-1955 Port Arthur, Ontario
8 7 Don Raleigh 5'11 150 6/27/1926 8/21/2012 1943-1944; 1947-1956 Kenora, Ontario
9 5 Buddy O'Connor 5'8 142 6/21/1916 8/24/1977 1947-1951 Montreal, Quebec
10T 77 Phil Esposito 6'1 205 2/20/1942 1975-1981 Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario
10T 99 Wayne Gretzky 6'0 185 1/26/1961 1996-1999 Brantford, Ontario
Click here for project details


Wingers

RankNo.PlayerPosHeightWeightBornDiedTenureBirthplace
1 5 Bill Cook RW 5'10 170 10/9/1896 4/6/1986 1926-1937 Kingston, Ontario
2 9 Andy Bathgate RW 6'0 180 8/28/1932 1952-1964 Winnipeg, Manitoba
3 7 Rod Gilbert RW 5'9 180 7/1/1941 1960-1977 Montreal, Quebec
4 12 Bryan Hextall, Sr. RW 5'10 180 7/31/1913 7/25/1984 1937-1944; 1945-1948 Grenfell, Saskatchewan
5 8 Cecil Dillon RW 5'11 173 4/26/1908 11/13/1969 1930-1939 Toledo, Ohio
6 11 Vic Hadfield LW 6'0 190 10/4/1940 1961-1974 Oakville, Ontario
7T 6 "Bun" Cook LW 5'11 180 9/18/1903 3/19/1988 1926-1936 Kingston, Ontario
7T 9 Adam Graves LW 6'0 205 4/12/1968 1991-2001 Tecumseh, Ontario
9 21 Camille Henry LW 5'9 152 1/31/1933 9/11/1997 1953-1955; 1956-1965; 1967-1968 Quebec City, Quebec
10 68 Jaromir Jagr RW 6'3 230 2/15/1972 2004-2007 Kladno, Czech Republic
Click here for project details


Defensemen

RankNo.PlayerHeightWeightBornDiedTenureBirthplace
1 2 Brian Leetch 6'0 190 3/3/1968 1987-2004 Corpus Christi, Texas
2 2 Brad Park 6'0 200 7/6/1948 1968-1975 Toronto, Ontario
3 3 "Ching" Johnson 5'11 210 12/7/1898 6/16/1979 1926-1937 Winnepeg, Manitoba
4 3 Harry Howell 6'1 195 12/28/1932 1952-1969 Hamilton, Ontario
5 2 Art Coulter 5'11 185 5/31/1909 10/14/2000 1935-1942 Winnepeg, Manitoba
6 3 Ott Heller 6'0 190 6/2/1910 6/15/1980 1931-1946 Berlin, Ontario
7 4 Bill Gadsby 6'0 180 8/2/1927 1954-1961 Calgary, Alberta
8 2 Earl Seibert 6'2 198 12/7/1911 5/20/1990 1931-1936 Berlin, Ontario
9 4 Ron Greschner 6'2 205 12/22/1954 1974-1990 Goodsoil, Saskatchewan
10 11 Babe Pratt 6'3 212 1/7/1916 12/16/1988 1935-1943 Stony Mountain, Manitoba
Click here for project details


NOTE: Please report any errors via PM to Crease

Gardner McKay 07-03-2013 11:21 AM

Great list Crease. :handclap:

What I find interesting is that Brian Leetch is the only American to make it on either lists. Out of our top 20 players essentially on a U.S. based team there is one player who is an American. Now I guess things would change had we done goaltenders and such but still.

Just goes to show that for a long time the premier talent really was all based out of Canada.

Crease 07-03-2013 11:54 AM

Thanks CMM. I can't take all the credit though, this was a group effort.

You bring up an interesting point. Before the 1980s there really only a handful of Americans in the NHL. Some would argue that the "Miracle on Ice" changed the landscape, encouraging young Americans to pick up the game in numbers large enough to to make a dent at the NHL level.

Leetch is probably the third best American born-and-trained player of all-time, behind Chris Chelios and Frank Brimsek. When we eventually get to the Goalies project, Vanbiesbrouck and Richter will probably be in the converstation. Vanbiesbrouck, by the way, is one of very few American goaltenders to win the Vezina.

Ultimately it's not surprising that there is only one American and no Europeans on this list. The Rangers most fruitful years were pre-WWII, the 1970s and early 1990s. The NHL wasn't fully integrated until the late 80s and early 90s.

Gardner McKay 07-03-2013 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crease (Post 68561957)
Thanks CMM. I can't take all the credit though, this was a group effort.

You bring up an interesting point. Before the 1980s there really only a handful of Americans in the NHL. Some would argue that the "Miracle on Ice" changed the landscape, encouraging young Americans to pick up the game in numbers large enough to to make a dent at the NHL level.

Leetch is probably the third best American born-and-trained player of all-time, behind Chris Chelios and Frank Brimsek. When we eventually get to the Goalies project, Vanbiesbrouck and Richter will probably be in the converstation. Vanbiesbrouck, by the way, is one of very few American goaltenders to win the Vezina.

Ultimately it's not surprising that there is only one American and no Europeans on this list. The Rangers most fruitful years were pre-WWII, the 1970s and early 1990s. The NHL wasn't fully integrated until the late 80s and early 90s.

*Walt Tkzachuk But I do agree it is not very surprising.

Crease 07-03-2013 12:21 PM

Ah yes, Walt. Born in Germany and moved to Ontario when he was 2 years old. I never knew this, but apparently he never attained Canadian citizenship.

Chief 07-27-2013 05:59 PM

We're going to see more Europeans once we get to the wingers. Jagr, Hedberg, Gaborik and Kovalev are prominent names but guys like Sandstrom, Sundstron, Erixon and I'm sure someone will bring up Bure, will be in the discussion.

Kris Chreider 07-27-2013 08:17 PM

I thought Zubov should've been on the list.

Crease 07-27-2013 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kris Chreider (Post 69681387)
I thought Zubov should've been on the list.

The Rangers are historically deep at Defense. At least relative to other positions. Seibert has the shortest tenure amongst defensemen who made the final list, at 4.5 seasons. Zubov played 3. Both have Cups. Seibert has a 1st and 2nd AST with the Rangers. Zubov none. Zubov was great, and I wish the Rangers held on to him, but I don't think he did enough with the franchise to make the list. Other participants agreed.

For reference, Zubov had an average rank of about 14 amongst participants who had him in their top 20.

Kane One 07-27-2013 10:48 PM

Crease, will you guys be doing other positions as well?

Crease 07-27-2013 10:55 PM

Yes, at minimum one project for Wingers and one project for Goalies. The only questions are when, in what order, and if we should split Wingers into separate smaller LW and RW projects.

NickyFotiu 07-28-2013 08:28 PM

I wish the voting was for the last 30-40 years. So hard for me to see a list of guys that most posters never saw play.

cjc5103 07-28-2013 08:47 PM

This is really great. Wow.

Lindberg Cheese 07-28-2013 09:13 PM

Don Maloney

Lindberg Cheese 07-28-2013 09:14 PM

Rod Gilbert???

Crease 07-28-2013 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lindberg Cheese (Post 69712075)
Don Maloney

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lindberg Cheese (Post 69712115)
Rod Gilbert???

We haven't gotten to Wingers yet.

Aufheben 07-28-2013 10:42 PM

Interesting for a n00b like me. Well done Crease (and voters).

bernmeister 07-29-2013 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crease (Post 68561957)
Thanks CMM. I can't take all the credit though, this was a group effort.

Yeah, but I trust those who participated want to acknowledge you deserve lion's share of the credit for this :handclap::yo::);):thumbu::clap::clap:

KreiMeARiver 07-29-2013 01:59 PM

Boucher over Messier is still a disgrace, but nice work, Crease.

Crease 07-29-2013 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KreiMeARiver (Post 69731777)
Boucher over Messier is still a disgrace, but nice work, Crease.

Cases for #1 can be made for Boucher, Messier and (to a lesser extent IMO) Ratelle. The participants (myself included) are obviously not the definitive voices on the matter, so I'd love to hear your argument for Messier over Boucher.

Lindberg Cheese 07-29-2013 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crease (Post 69712417)
We haven't gotten to Wingers yet.

Apologies, just zaw them as F. Cant wait

Cake or Death 07-31-2013 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KreiMeARiver (Post 69731777)
Boucher over Messier is still a disgrace, but nice work, Crease.

A number of us spent like a month compiling the center list and disagreed. I personally think the gap between Boucher and Messier is rather large. I'll explain why I feel this way...

Cups with NYR: Boucher 2, Mess 1
Top 10 gls finishes: Boucher 2, Mess 1
Top 10 asst finishes: Boucher 9, Mess 2
Top 10 pts finishes: Boucher 8, Mess 2
Top 10 playoff gls finishes: Boucher 5, Mess 1
Top 10 playoff asst finishes: Boucher 5, Mess 1
Top 10 playoff pts finishes: Boucher 5, Mess 1
Era adjusted pts with NYR: Boucher 273-864-1137, Mess 256-454-710
Era adjusted pts/season with NYR: Boucher 23-72-95, Mess 26-45-71
1st team all star: Boucher 3, Mess 1
2nd team all star: Boucher 1, Mess 0
Hardware: Boucher - Smythe*, Lady Byng 7 times**, Mess - Hart
Messier's best era adjusted season: 45 gls, 50 asst, 95 pts
Boucher's best era adjusted season: 42 gls, 118 asst, 160 pts

* - awarded retroactively
** - Boucher won the Byng so many times they gave him the original trophy and created a new one

Cake or Death 07-31-2013 08:45 PM

Props to the folks who worked on the D list... nice work!

Chief 08-02-2013 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cake or Death (Post 69817285)
A number of us spent like a month compiling the center list and disagreed. I personally think the gap between Boucher and Messier is rather large. I'll explain why I feel this way...

Cups with NYR: Boucher 2, Mess 1
Top 10 gls finishes: Boucher 2, Mess 1
Top 10 asst finishes: Boucher 9, Mess 2
Top 10 pts finishes: Boucher 8, Mess 2
Top 10 playoff gls finishes: Boucher 5, Mess 1
Top 10 playoff asst finishes: Boucher 5, Mess 1
Top 10 playoff pts finishes: Boucher 5, Mess 1
Era adjusted pts with NYR: Boucher 273-864-1137, Mess 256-454-710
Era adjusted pts/season with NYR: Boucher 23-72-95, Mess 26-45-71
1st team all star: Boucher 3, Mess 1
2nd team all star: Boucher 1, Mess 0
Hardware: Boucher - Smythe*, Lady Byng 7 times**, Mess - Hart
Messier's best era adjusted season: 45 gls, 50 asst, 95 pts
Boucher's best era adjusted season: 42 gls, 118 asst, 160 pts

* - awarded retroactively
** - Boucher won the Byng so many times they gave him the original trophy and created a new one

There's no shame in being #2 on a list of all-time greats for a franchise that has been around for 87 years. That said, it wasn't unanimous to put Boucher at #1...I didn't.

I disagree with Cake's opinion and his basing it, at least in part, on "Top 10" finishes of Boucher v. Messier in individual stat categories because he's comparing apples to oranges. Being Top 10 in scoring when there were only about 36 forwards in the league isn't the same as being Top 10 when there were over 310 forwards. If you're going to compare apples to apples, then a Top 10 finish for Boucher is akin to a Top 85 finish for Messier.

I appreciate the 2 Cups for Boucher but I don't think having 2 Cups v. having 1 Cup is that much of an advantage for Boucher, since the playoffs were so much shorter in Boucher's day. The way the playoffs were set up back then, Boucher wound up playing 17 games total in his Stanley Cup runs. Messier's Rangers played 23 in their one Cup run and even if those Rangers had swept every series, they would have had to play a minimum of 16 games.

In any event, they were two great Rangers and I have no qualms with the way the list played out even if it did differ from my personal ranking.

Now, if we continue to argue the merits of the players we already ranked, that might signal that it's time to tackle another position. ;)

Crease 08-02-2013 10:02 AM

Chief, when I read CoD's post my Chief alarms were going off. :laugh:

At your request we did look at percentile finishes, which technically adjusts for league-size. When looking at it in this manner Boucher, Messier, and Ratelle were VERY similar.

Player 90+ 95+ 98+
Messier 7 6 4
Ratelle 8 7 3
Boucher 8 6 2

I do say "technically" though because I'm not so sure that league size impacts who the 10 best players are or how good they were. In other words, I'm not sure a smaller league makes it easier for someone to displace one of the 10 best players in the league in a statistical category. The only years where I look at Top 10 finishes with some skepticism are during WWII, and from the 60s-70s when it was evident that some of the best players in the world were not playing in the NHL (Kharlamov, Makarov, etc).

HoosierDaddy 08-03-2013 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crease (Post 69682245)
The Rangers are historically deep at Defense. At least relative to other positions. Seibert has the shortest tenure amongst defensemen who made the final list, at 4.5 seasons. Zubov played 3. Both have Cups. Seibert has a 1st and 2nd AST with the Rangers. Zubov none. Zubov was great, and I wish the Rangers held on to him, but I don't think he did enough with the franchise to make the list. Other participants agreed.

For reference, Zubov had an average rank of about 14 amongst participants who had him in their top 20.

I can't remember, but who was the Dman who lead the team in regular season scoring in the 93-94 SC season? Has any other NYR Dman lead the team in scoring, Leetch?


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:55 PM.

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com, A property of CraveOnline, a division of AtomicOnline LLC ©2009 CraveOnline Media, LLC. All Rights Reserved.