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kdb209 07-06-2013 04:46 PM

Phoenix XCVII: Forget it, Jake. It's Glendale.
 
A web of deceit, corruption and murder bankruptcy - it's what you get from trying to bring [frozen] water to the desert ...

In the beginning ... the first Phoenix fiasco thread!!! (?)
03-04-2007 Coyotes to lose 30M?

12-08-2008 Hockey in The Desert (Phoenix franchise and finance/business matters)
02-04-2009 Hockey in the Desert II (Phoenix Coyotes franchise and business matters)

Fresh from Al Capone's Geraldo Rivera's Evil Doctor's Vault - The Lost Thread:
04-28-2009 The Arizona Republic: NHL loan keeps Coyotes operating

05-05-2009 Balsillie puts in $212.5 mil offer for the Coyotes
05-07-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix part II
05-18-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix part III
05-22-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix part IV
06-03-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix part V
06-09-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix Part VI
06-12-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix Part VII: I'm just waitin' on a judge
06-16-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix Part VIII: It's dead, Jim
06-24-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix Part IX: 'Dorf on Hockey
07-25-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part X: The Truth? You Can't Handle The Truth!
08-03-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XI: A Fistful of Dollars?
08-07-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XII: For a Few Dollars More
08-12-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XIII: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly
08-21-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XIV: The Wrath of Baum
08-27-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XV - SITREP: SNAFU
09-02-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XVI: Barbarian at the Gate
09-08-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XVII: Wake Me Up When September Ends
09-10-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XVIII: Is that a pale horse in the distance?
09-12-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy Part XIX: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Baum
09-21-2009 Phoenix Bankruptcy Part XX: There Will Be Baum
09-28-2009 Phoenix Bankruptcy Part XXI: 2009 -- A Sports Odyssey
10-26-2009 Phoenix Bankruptcy Part XXII: Long and winding road

11-24-2009 Keeping up with potential owners for NHL Phoenix Coyotes (UPD: Ice Edge signs LOI)
03-14-2010 Part II. Potential owners of NHL's Phoenix Coyotes
03-26-2010 Part III. Prospective Owners - Phoenix Coyotes (UPD Lease vote 4/13; IEH signs MOU)
04-10-2010 Part IV Phoenix Coyotes post bankrtuptcy; UPD COG approves Reinsdorf MOU, not IEH MOU
05-02-2010 Part V Phoenix Coyotes post bankruptcy UPD Reinsdorf out? IEH back in? else Winnipeg?
05-11-2010 Part VI Phoenix Coyotes post bankruptcy
05-23-2010 Part VII Phoenix Coyotes post bankrtuptcy
06-07-2010 Part VIII: Phoenix Coyotes Post-bankrtuptcy
06-22-2010 Part IX: Phoenix Coyotes Post-bankruptcy UPD: Pres Moss fired 6/30 with IEH input
07-26-2010 Part X: Phoenix Coyotes - Between Scylla and Charybdis
08-27-2010 Part XI: Phoenix Coyotes -- Greetings, Starfighter, You have been selected ...
09-16-2010 Part XII: Phx Coyotes - Still haven't found what I'm looking for
10-12-2010 Part XIII: Phoenix Coyotes - The Final Cut?
10-27-2010 Part XIV: Phoenix Coyotes - To Infinity And Beyond....
12-05-2010 Part XV: Phoenix - the battle of evermore
12-14-2010 Part XVI: Phoenix -- Money for Nothing
12-20-2010 Part XVII: Phoenix -- Thread Title Available For Lease
01-09-2011 Part XVIII: Phoenix -- Imminence Front
01-24-2011 Phoenix XIXth: Nervous Breakdown
02-02-2011 Phoenix XX: Two weeks
02-11-2011 Phoenix XXI: When will then be now?
02-22-2011 Phoenix XXII: It's Now or Never
02-28-2011 Phoenix XXIII - Bond: The Phoenix Project
03-03-2011 Phoenix XXIV: How many twists does the scriptwriter have left?
03-07-2011 Phoenix XXV: Anyone in the theatre seen a pale horse?
03-08-2011 Phoenix XXVI: Pain in the AZ
03-11-2011 Phoenix XXVII: Can we all get along?
03-16-2011 Phoenix XXVIII: Lawyers, Bonds and Money
03-20-2011 Phoenix XXIX: What's the next act? I'm tired of the dog & pony show
03-22-2011 Phoenix Part XXX Hulz, you gotta get a gimmick if you want to get ahead
03-27-2011 Phoenix Part XXXI: I feel I'm in a time loop
04-05-2011 Phoenix Part XXXII: Bridge over Troubled Goldwater
04-14-2011 Phoenix XXXIII: Sound of Silence
04-20-2011 Phoenix XXXIV: Project Mayhem
04-25-2011 Phoenix XXXV: Several Species of Small Furry Animals Gathered Together in a Cave...
05-03-2011 Phoenix XXXVI - There's got to be a morning after
05-10-2011 Phoenix XXXVII - The Heat is On

Followed by the Interregnum between Kings Phoenix the XXXVII-th and Phoenix the XXXVIII-th:

[PYTHON]
The most interesting thing about King Charles, the first
Is that he was 5 foot 6 inches tall at the start of his reign
But only 4 foot 8 inches tall at the end of it because of
Oliver Cromwell, Lord Protector of England Puritan
Born in 1599 and died in 1658 September
[/PYTHON]

06-09-2011 ESPN's Burnside: Hulsizer submitted new deal; COG city manager dragging it out
06-20-2011 Coyotes related: Westgate faces foreclosure
06-21-2011 Phoenix, worst case scenario

Finally, the realm was restored ...

06-27-2011 Phoenix XXXVIII: Hulsizer Pulls Bid For Coyotes
08-16-2011 Phoenix XXXIX: You Never Give Me Your Money
10-18-2011 Phoenix XL: Rich Man's World
12-07-2011 Phoenix XLI: Bongo Fury
01-06-2012 Phoenix XLII: The Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe and Everything
02-02-2012 Phoenix XLIII: How to Bake Cupcakes in Less Than Two Weeks
02-28-2012 Phoenix XLIV: Ignorance & Apathy (or I Doan't know & I Doan't Care)
03-28-2012 Phoenix XLV: You can't YANDLE the truth!
04-11-2012 Phoenix XLVI: (Tre)living on a prayer
04-21-2012 Phoenix XLVII: More Threads than Superbowls
05-01-2012 Phoenix XLVIII: Of Mice and Lieberman
05-08-2012 Phoenix XLIX: Smoke & Mirrors
05-21-2012 Phoenix L: AllByDesign?
05-30-2012 Phoenix LI: es, Damn Lies, and Arena Management Fees
06-06-2012 Phoenix LII: Goodnight, Sweet Lieberman
06-08-2012 Phoenix LIII: How the GWInch Stole Phoenix
06-12-2012 Phoenix LIV:E and Let Die
06-19-2012 Phoenix LV: is Has Left the Building
06-26-2012 Phoenix LVI: s is Still Dead (or Maybe Working at a 7-11 in Glendale)
07-04-2012 Phoenix LVII (or MDCCLXXVI): Declarations of (In)Dependence
07-13-2012 Phoenix LVIII; Will jobbing get jobbed?
07-30-2012 Phoenix LIX: The JIG is up?
08-18-2012 Phoenix LX: Pinocchio's Furniture
09-07-2012 Phoenix LXI; We agreed to pay HOW MUCH‽
09-26-2012 Phoenix LXII: Abandon Hope all Ye Who Enter Here
10-16-2012 Phoenix LXIII: Have Become, Comfortably Numb;
11-06-2012 Phoenix LXIV: Will You Still Need Me, Will You Still Read Me, on Thread LXIV?
11-21-2012 Phoenx LXV: The word is... give me a minute.... "Omnishambles"... "Omnishambles"
11-27-2012 Phoenix LXVI: Get Your Kicks On Thread LXVI
12-18-2012 Phoenix LXVII: Route66 - Aftermath
01-15-2013 Phoenix LXVIII - "Watch out for that Tree"
01-25-2013 Phoenix LXIX: Thread of LXIX
01-30-2013 Phoenix LXX: Should they stay or should they go now?
02-01-2013 Phoenix LXXI: Daydream Belever
02-12-2013 Phoenix LXXII: Send in the Clowns
03-14-2013 Phoenix LXXIII: "This Space Available"
04-04-2013 Phoenix LXXIV: Be Seeing You
04-22-2013 Phoenix LXXV: It's Like Deja Vu All Over Again
05-02-3013 Phoenix LXXVI: Renaissance Men
05-13-2013 Phoenix LXXVII: Tired of Waiting For You
05-19-2013 Phoenix LXXVIII: Know When To Hold 'Em, Know When To Fold 'Em
05-25-2013 Phoenix LXXIX: This is The End, We Hope Not
05-29-2013 Phoenix LXXX: Is there another way out?
06-01-2013 Phoenix LXXXI: I'll Gladly Pay You Tuesday for Your Franchise Today!
06-08-2013 Phoenix LXXXII: "Waive Reading Beyond the Title"
06-12-2013 Phoenix LXXXIII: "Stuff's Gonna Happen"
06-14-2013 Phoenix LXXXIV: Planespotting Edition
06-16-2013 Phoenix LXXXV: A Bridge to Nowhere
06-20-2013 Phoenix LXXXVI: There's Always Money in the Banana Stand
06-24-2013 Phoenix LXXXVII: Hotel Arizona
06-26-2013 Phoenix LXXXVIII: The Final Cupcake?
06-28-2013 Phoenix LXXXIX: If you don't approve it, we must move it!
06-29-2013 Phoenix XC: Down to the Weiers
07-02-2013 Phoenix XCI: Never Gonna Give You Up
07-02-2013 Phoenix XCII: Movie Night In Glendale
07-02-2013 Phoenix XCIII: Vote for the Yote to Keep them Afloat, or That's all She Wrote!
07-02-2013 Phoenix XCIV: The team, the dream, the scheme
07-02-2013 Phoenix XCV: We Trust Gary Bettman
07-02-2013 Phoenix XCVI: The Government You Deserve ...
07-06-2013 Phoenix XCVII: Forget it, Jake. It's Glendale

A couple whole bunch of Phoenix uThreads have popped up in the wake of the "To close, or not to close" mega-thread discussion:

03-16-2012 COG to spend more on Coyotes than public safety?
03-22-2012 Dreger (3/22): NHL to investigate "plan b" for Phoenix
03-23-2012 Sunnicks strikes again "will they stay or will they go now?"
03-28-2012 G&M: Architects of Glendale pro sports disaster won't be around for fallout
03-30-2012 Shoalts: Ice Edge talking about bringing (minor) hockey to the Job should Yotes leave
04-04-2012 Shoalts: Glendale Mayor Scruggs wants city's $$ back
04-05-2012 Coyotes CEO 'confident' team is staying in Glendale
04-05-2012 Puck Daddy: Coyotes battline relocation worries with public optimism
04-06-2012 A strong PHX team in the playoffs may bring a new owner.
04-10-2012 Father of PHX AGM Brad Treliving involved in keeping Coyotes in Glendale?
04-10-2012 PKP offer for Coyotes may be 230 million (mod: to QC w/relo $$)
04-10-2012 Beasley: Coyotes deal within a month
04-11-2012 Glendale, NHL trying to close Phoenix Coyotes deal with Jamison group
04-11-2012 Bettman: no timeline on Phoenix situation (AP)
04-13-2012 Adding up the Numbers in the Phoenix Jamison Bid
04-16-2012 COG's Lieberman calls for demonstration against Coyote deal
04-17-2012 COG - budget payment to Jamison group not to exceed $20m?
04-17-2012 GWI ready to scrutinize new deal
04-18-2012 Coyotes sale soon, five things to watch
04-21-2012 Jamison looking for more investors on Coyotes bid, could be 1-2 months away from deal
04-21-2012 Greg Jamison finally goes public with potential purchase of the Coyotes
04-24-2012 Glendale Busts its Budget; Pledges More Money for Yotes
04-27-2012 Coyotes working to convert bandwagon fans to full time fans
04-28-2-12 4/28: Coyote sale deal getting closer
04-30-2012 Phoenix Coyotes sale finalized May 8th? Hulsizer back in?
05-03-2012 Phoenix CEO/Pres Nealy - something could happen next week
05-04-2012 Feschuk: Phoenix Coyotes doing just fine, thanks
05-04-2012 If the yotes make the finals
05-04-2012 Former Coyotes owner Jerry Moyes assails NHL over Coyotes’ operations
05-07-2012 NHL to announce tentative deal re: sale to Jamison
05-08-2012 Sportsnet: COG promising $306mm over next 21 years
05-08-2012 Wall Street Journal: 'Glendale's Public Hockey Project' = Loss
05-17-2012 Phoenix saga: 5/22 end date
05-17-2012 Jamison signing preliminary sales docs with NHL 5/17 or 5/18
05-21-2012 Goldwater Inst. ready to sue Glendale over arena management deal
05-23-2012 COG council approves preliminary budget with $17m payment for arena management
05-25-2012 Preliminary draft of lease agreement for Jobing.com in hands of COG board
06-04-2012 Phoenix lease details
06-05-2012 Bettmans plan may unravel in Phoenix (vote coming 6/8)
06-06-2012 The angst of Phoenix -- from three major league teams to one (that use city name)
06-06-2012 Forbes: Jamison having trouble raising funds
06-07-2012 GWI letter to Glendale Mayor and Coucilmembers
06-07-2012 Arizona Free Enterprise Club opposes COG deal
06-07-2012 Goldwater Institute Files for Restraining Order
06-11-2012 Coyote name change on hold?
06-13-2012 13 June, Goldwater files suit
06-14-2012 Halverstadt on NHL Home Ice talking Coyotes
06-14-2012 Coyotes deadline "now"? NHL schedule releasing soon
06-15-2012 PBJ: CoG says they'll withstand GWI legal challenge
06-15-2012 AFEC considering ballot (referendum) and COG concil recall
06-18-2012 Phoenix Coyotes, NHL looking for legal counsel to represent team, arena
06-19-2012 Coyotes deal not immediately effective - Referendum to follow?
06-26-2012 COG + GWI agreement on non-emergency status
06-28-2012 Jones/Cobb v Glendale (Coyotes Court Case)
07-04-2012 Coyotes PAC formed
07-04-2012 COG city council candidates voice opposition to Coyotes deal
07-05-2012 Shoalts 7/5 update on Coyotes situation
07-09-2012 Coyotes lease referendum petition not submitted by 7/9
07-11-2012 Glendale rejects group's attempt to overturn sales-tax increase
07-12-2012 PBJ: Jamison group has funding for purchase of Coyotes
07-16-2012 2 COG referendum proponents gearing up for legal battle
07-26-2012 Jones & Cobb decide to NOT file lawsuit after their lease referendum rejected
07-26-2012 PBJ: 7/27 deadline for Coyotes sale?
07-28-2012 PBJ: 7/28: Jamison short $20mm?
07-31-2012 Glendale arena proposal scheduled to expire 7/31, extended another 31 days
08-01-2012 Mayoral candidates speaking out on Coyotes prospective owner
08-08-2012 PBJ: 8/8 Jamison group apparently now has the funds to buy Coyotes
08-10-2012 SBN's Five for Howling: Coyotes sale a done deal
08-16-2012 COG mayoral candidate: Rework proposed lease due to lockout
08-18-2012 CBA uncertainty delaying Coyotes sale?
08-24-2012 8/24: Appeals Court Orders Glendale Sales-Tax Measure to be put Back on Ballot
08-27-2012 8/27 COG extends lease (with NHL) again (pending sale to Jamison group)
08-29-2012 COG seeking change to negotiated proposed arena deal with Jamison
09-04-2012 ESPN Burnside has source that says Jamison's got funding, arena deal to be done
09-11-2012 PBJ: O’odham tribe now involved in Jamison's deal to buy team?
09-29-2012 Final details on Coyotes lease to be settled 10/3?
10-07-2012 Final vote on reworked Jobing.com lease coming 10/23?
10-08-2012 Deja vu, redux = COG talk about extending agreement with NHL another 30 days
11-01-2012 Dater: Phoenix reason for lockout
11-07-2012 Impact of Glendale election on fate of Phoenix Coyotes future
11-26-2012 COG to vote on revised lease 11/27
11-30-2012 Referendum starts process (against) Glendale arena deal with Jamison
12-21-2012 Jamison officially signs Jobing.com lease agreement
12-26-2012 Coyotes could break even, or even profit, if there are no games
12-27-2012 Shoalts: Jamison using US Green Cards to lure investors in Coyotes
01-06-2013 Sportsnet: Jamison group about to finalize Coyotes purchase
01-30-2013 Burnside, LeBrun: Sale of Coyotes to Jamison in Question
01-31-2012 NHL no longer denying relocation a possibility for the Coyotes?
02-01-2013 USA Today's Allen: NHL must continue committment to Phoenix
02-02-2013 Phoenix - Glendale vs Scottsdale
02-08-2013 Grant Woods leading (new) ownership group to (try to) buy Coyotes
02-12-2013 Hulsizer back to looking at buying Coyotes?
03-28-2013 Report: NHL may soon consider relocation for Coyotes; Ice Edge back in picture?
03-29-2013 Bettman: Hey COG, expect something in about a week
04-07-2013 Bettman: Interest in Phoenix franchise "higher than ever"
05-06-2013 Arizona Republic: True cost of running Jobing.com below what COG has paid
05-06-2013 COG Mayor: waiting on NHL to approve owner
05-11-2013 Californian Darin Pastor looking to finalize "premium" purchase of Coyotes
05-27-2013 5/28 NHL, COG, Renaissance meeting in Glendale
05-30-2013 Forbes: Phoenix Coyotes $170 Million Sale To Be Partially Funded By NHL
06-05-2013 4 firms submitted bids to run Jobing.com arena by deadline
06-12-2013 The Hockey News: Will the Coyotes move to Seattle this Summer?
06-13-2013 Glendale announces 4 bidders for Jobing.com management
06-14-2013 Yet another mystery buyer courting Glendale directly
06-15-2013 FSAZ/AP: Framework in place for new lease to keep Coyotes in Glendale
06-26-2013 Mystery Coyotes investor to partner with COG?
07-02-2013 Thread for Discussion of CoG/RSE Lease Agreement 7/2/13

And, hey, why not, for completeness:

03-05-2010 NHL sues Jerry Moyes

Killion 07-06-2013 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hisgirlfriday (Post 68862309)
Couldn't they have done that at the draft?

Not likely, as it was just before July 2nd and the date of Glendales vote on the Lease. It just doesnt make sense. Had the BOG's voted to approve RSE & the terms, Fortress's loan, the NHL's $85M loan, approved RSE's cash equity of a mere (app) 30% down, approved the principals in Gosbee, LeBlanc, Dey & Jones, it wouldve been announced. Doesnt add-up. They split shares, forming IceArizona, and were, still are apparently trying to solicit further investors, and they too will require some vetting from the league.

Brodie 07-06-2013 08:06 PM

also the original title of Movie Night in Glendale :laugh:

Donwood 07-06-2013 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killion (Post 68862657)
Not likely, as it was just before July 2nd and the date of Glendales vote on the Lease. It just doesnt make sense. Had the BOG's voted to approve RSE & the terms, Fortress's loan, the NHL's $85M loan, approved RSE's cash equity of a mere (app) 30% down, approved the principals in Gosbee, LeBlanc, Dey & Jones, it wouldve been announced. Doesnt add-up. They split shares, forming IceArizona, and were, still are apparently trying to solicit further investors, and they too will require some vetting from the league.

Ah vetting also known as no more Boots Del Biaggio please. Hmm,I wonder if Leblanc paid Boots a visit in the big house for some advice on attracting investors. :naughty:

MNNumbers 07-06-2013 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killion (Post 68862657)
Not likely, as it was just before July 2nd and the date of Glendales vote on the Lease. It just doesnt make sense. Had the BOG's voted to approve RSE & the terms, Fortress's loan, the NHL's $85M loan, approved RSE's cash equity of a mere (app) 30% down, approved the principals in Gosbee, LeBlanc, Dey & Jones, it wouldve been announced. Doesnt add-up. They split shares, forming IceArizona, and were, still are apparently trying to solicit further investors, and they too will require some vetting from the league.

Killion,

In a universe where things make sense, it would be appropriate for them to vet closely every investor.

However, as the thread title tells us, This Is Glendale's Universe. In GU, the NHL is so desperate to sell that every investor will automatically be approved. We all know this. And, if they come short, the league will up their 85M to whatever it takes. There is no common sense here at all.

Llama19 07-06-2013 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killion (Post 68862657)
Not likely, as it was just before July 2nd and the date of Glendales vote on the Lease. It just doesnt make sense. Had the BOG's voted to approve RSE & the terms, Fortress's loan, the NHL's $85M loan, approved RSE's cash equity of a mere (app) 30% down, approved the principals in Gosbee, LeBlanc, Dey & Jones, it wouldve been announced. Doesnt add-up. They split shares, forming IceArizona, and were, still are apparently trying to solicit further investors, and they too will require some vetting from the league.

None of the 'investors' have enough money.

They are getting their $15M 'down payment' from Glendale... :shakehead

kihekah19 07-06-2013 08:28 PM

[QUOTE=kdb209;68854751]A web of deceit, corruption and murder bankruptcy - it's what you get from trying to bring [frozen] water to the desert ...



Actually frozen water is not brought here. It's typical water in it's liquid state (purified for aesthetics) that is frozen, right here in the hot desert! Modern refrigeration (not really that new), is something so many have a difficult time grasping. :shakehead

MNNumbers 07-06-2013 08:34 PM

So, to recap:

IA has put out a press release of some kind, or talked to the press and revealed that:
There will be ticket surcharges, but they will end up about the same as last year.

This means, quite obviously, that the promised "revenue streams" are not entirely new, but rather are, as Bowers and Birnbaum told the council, some that were already included. Which means that, although legally they look like replacement to bring the net-AMF closer to 6M, in actually, they will come out of the GF income from somewhere else. To put it bluntly, we may need a thread : SHERWOOD'S LIES. As, we all know that he is the one who is the mastermind behind the whole thing, and was able to pull the wool over Knaack, Martinez and Chavira.
I predict more to come on these "false" revenue streams. In fact, I predict that when we see the final draft, it will count all these things in the 'make whole' provision, so no matter what, Glendale is going to be out as much as the prior ticket surcharges were bringing in.

MOD

Llama19 07-06-2013 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MNNumbers (Post 68864827)
So, to recap:

IA has put out a press release of some kind, or talked to the press and revealed that:
There will be ticket surcharges, but they will end up about the same as last year.

This means, quite obviously, that the promised "revenue streams" are not entirely new, but rather are, as Bowers and Birnbaum told the council, some that were already included. Which means that, although legally they look like replacement to bring the net-AMF closer to 6M, in actually, they will come out of the GF income from somewhere else. To put it bluntly, we may need a thread : SHERWOOD'S LIES. As, we all know that he is the one who is the mastermind behind the whole thing, and was able to pull the wool over Knaack, Martinez and Chavira.
I predict more to come on these "false" revenue streams. In fact, I predict that when we see the final draft, it will count all these things in the 'make whole' provision, so no matter what, Glendale is going to be out as much as the prior ticket surcharges were bringing in.

I'm awaiting the 'audit' results...

To quote:

"[Councilmember] Alvarez made a final comment concerning the independent audit of the city’s books.

“The audit is getting pretty close,” she said. “I’m not covering for anybody. I told them (the auditors) employees are coming to me as a group. I couldn’t believe all the stuff they were telling me, and I told the auditors.”"

Source: http://www.glendalestar.com/news/hea...9bb2963f4.html

davemac1313 07-06-2013 08:47 PM

If the agreement calls for all these surcharges/parking etc to be passed back to the city to offset the additional 8.5 million that the city gives RSE in the form of "Arena Management Fees" was already coming to the team, with the exception of a nickel, that the team is now going to eat.......the math doesn't make sense. Other than the new parking lots that will be charging for parking (one already did charge). RSE gives all the revenue they would have got, + a nickel and then 20% of the naming rights and then rent, which they never paid basically under the old AMF......how does this math work? The revenue was already part of the business model, now its not...it goes to the city.

Can someone explain to me how this isn't just a shell game. The player in a shell game (COG) always walks away empty-handed, somehow.

The statement in the Republic is either way out of context, I am totally misunderstanding or this is some kind of scam where I say I'll pay a nickel out of my money for 8.5 million from you....

Can one of the math guys explain this to me?

kihekah19 07-06-2013 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davemac1313 (Post 68865235)
If the agreement calls for all these surcharges/parking etc to be passed back to the city to offset the additional 8.5 million that the city gives RSE in the form of "Arena Management Fees" was already coming to the team, with the exception of a nickel, that the team is now going to eat.......the math doesn't make sense. Other than the new parking lots that will be charging for parking (one already did charge). RSE gives all the revenue they would have got, + a nickel and then 20% of the naming rights and then rent, which they never paid basically under the old AMF......how does this math work? The revenue was already part of the business model, now its not...it goes to the city.

Can someone explain to me how this isn't just a shell game. The player in a shell game (COG) always walks away empty-handed, somehow.

The statement in the Republic is either way out of context, I am totally misunderstanding or this is some kind of scam where I say I'll pay a nickel out of my money for 8.5 million from you....

Can one of the math guys explain this to me?


Yes. It's simple Dave: Without the Coyotes at Jobbing.Com arena Glendale is screwed. Everyone except those that don't want the team in Glendale [mod] seems to understand this.

MNNumbers 07-06-2013 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davemac1313 (Post 68865235)
If the agreement calls for all these surcharges/parking etc to be passed back to the city to offset the additional 8.5 million that the city gives RSE in the form of "Arena Management Fees" was already coming to the team, with the exception of a nickel, that the team is now going to eat.......the math doesn't make sense. Other than the new parking lots that will be charging for parking (one already did charge). RSE gives all the revenue they would have got, + a nickel and then 20% of the naming rights and then rent, which they never paid basically under the old AMF......how does this math work? The revenue was already part of the business model, now its not...it goes to the city.

Can someone explain to me how this isn't just a shell game. The player in a shell game (COG) always walks away empty-handed, somehow.

The statement in the Republic is either way out of context, I am totally misunderstanding or this is some kind of scam where I say I'll pay a nickel out of my money for 8.5 million from you....

Can one of the math guys explain this to me?

Well, DaveMac,
In the first place, we should use 9M, not 8.5M, because the other 500,000 is for maintenance of the facility, and is included outside the 15M. So, really, it's 9M that the city is short.

Then, we have the following:
Sherwood and co identified these revenues that could be used to make up the difference. But, he didn't say that some already existed in the budget. No, keep that quiet.
We heard from Birnbaum (city attorney) and Bowers (manager) that this was the case, but no one ever addressed it afterwards.

Now, we hear the following:
1 - Yes there will be ticket surcharges. However, the fans won't notice. (I am gong to ignore the 5 cents here). This means that:
a) Since the fans won't notice in the prices, it means that Glendale won't be getting anything more than was already budgeted for when they did the city budget at 6M., and
b) There will be no more revenues to the team either.

Now, what is not clear is:
How much surcharge was slated to go to the team before? In other words, is the CoG/RSE breakdown the same or different.

And, along with that, we are hearing projections of a large bump in salary cap for 2014-2015. That means that RSE will have to raise ticket prices to keep up with salary floor, never mind to try to make money.

Conclusion:
This deal is going to be a hard pull for both the City and the Team.

davemac1313 07-06-2013 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kihekah19 (Post 68865497)
Yes. It's simple Dave: Without the Coyotes at Jobbing.Com arena Glendale is screwed. Everyone except those that don't want the team in Glendale [mod] seems to understand this..

Well if thats the case and the understanding in Glendale.....I now understand the vote......:shakehead

wunderpanda 07-06-2013 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kihekah19 (Post 68865497)
Yes. It's simple Dave: Without the Coyotes at Jobbing.Com arena Glendale is screwed. Everyone except those that don't want the team in Glendale [mod] seems to understand this.

I think the issue is more cost vs return. The city will spend $15 million, which is already a loss of $9 million over budget. The city gave away rights of certain revenue streams to RSE with an expectation of getting a percentage in return. So the actual city budget is broken now because those streams were given away.

So the arena must be successful enough (with non hockey events, parking and sales taxes to the city) to generate more than the $15 million the city invested. I have no doubt the team and fans will make the Coyotes business profitable, but the math doesn't add up for the other 320 non-hockey days.

:)

MNNumbers 07-06-2013 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davemac1313 (Post 68865799)
Well if thats the case and the understanding in Glendale.....I now understand the vote......:shakehead

I believe that the understanding for the City Council goes:

Weiers, Hugh, Alvarez :: This is a matter of giving money that we don't have to the hockey team. Weiers and Hugh likely understand a little more that Westgate did fine through the lockout without the Coyotes on balance according to their sales tax numbers (which is not what Kihekah would say and is different from a few anecdotal accounts of bars closing). Alvarez simply can't see giving money to team when police/fire don't have enough money, and parks and libraries are closing.

Sherwood: Big hockey fan, doesn't care about anything except keeping the team there. Uses fear of Westgate collapse to convince Knaack, Martinez and Chavira of the same.

Knaack: Convinced that the city depends on the hockey team being there.

Martinez and Chavira :: Less convinced, but lean toward saving the team, and toward not being able to tell any owner 'no' to his face.

And, it could be noted that, if Kihekah is right, and "Glendale is screwed if Coyotes leave", it is also correc to say that under this lease Glendale is also in big trouble....

davemac1313 07-06-2013 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MNNumbers (Post 68865567)
Well, DaveMac,
In the first place, we should use 9M, not 8.5M, because the other 500,000 is for maintenance of the facility, and is included outside the 15M. So, really, it's 9M that the city is short.

Then, we have the following:
Sherwood and co identified these revenues that could be used to make up the difference. But, he didn't say that some already existed in the budget. No, keep that quiet.
We heard from Birnbaum (city attorney) and Bowers (manager) that this was the case, but no one ever addressed it afterwards.

Now, we hear the following:
1 - Yes there will be ticket surcharges. However, the fans won't notice. (I am gong to ignore the 5 cents here). This means that:
a) Since the fans won't notice in the prices, it means that Glendale won't be getting anything more than was already budgeted for when they did the city budget at 6M., and
b) There will be no more revenues to the team either.

Now, what is not clear is:
How much surcharge was slated to go to the team before? In other words, is the CoG/RSE breakdown the same or different.

And, along with that, we are hearing projections of a large bump in salary cap for 2014-2015. That means that RSE will have to raise ticket prices to keep up with salary floor, never mind to try to make money.

Conclusion:
This deal is going to be a hard pull for both the City and the Team.

Thanks, I appreciate a well thought out and explained, Intelligent answer.

MNNumbers 07-06-2013 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davemac1313 (Post 68866223)
Thanks, I appreciate a well thought out and explained, Intelligent answer.

There is one more piece as well, Dave.

As you may know, the team has opt out rights after 5 years (and only after 5 years). If they opt out, they have apparently promised that they will pay Glendale the difference between these ancilllary revenues and 45M. In that way, CoG gets 'made whole' to the 6M in their budget.

However, having recognized that some of these revenues existed in the city budget before, we now know that this "make whole" guarantee will really be a "make whole except for the pieces that we tricked you into double counting" guarantee.

So, the City is going to lose money on this, no matter what happens. Unless, by some miracle, the Arena goes crazy with revenue and both the team and the city end up in the Black. This would take something close to the Red Sea opening again....

No Fun Shogun 07-06-2013 09:24 PM

Reading over the OP, I'm reminded how crazy it was here way back on the second of this month....

Llama19 07-06-2013 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MNNumbers (Post 68866509)
There is one more piece as well, Dave.

As you may know, the team has opt out rights after 5 years (and only after 5 years). If they opt out, they have apparently promised that they will pay Glendale the difference between these ancilllary revenues and 45M. In that way, CoG gets 'made whole' to the 6M in their budget.

However, having recognized that some of these revenues existed in the city budget before, we now know that this "make whole" guarantee will really be a "make whole except for the pieces that we tricked you into double counting" guarantee.

So, the City is going to lose money on this, no matter what happens. Unless, by some miracle, the Arena goes crazy with revenue and both the team and the city end up in the Black. This would take something close to the Red Sea opening again....

To quote:

"In the short term, Glendale would be better off rejecting a request by the Coyotes’ proposed new owners to increase the city’s financial stake in hockey, according to an analysis presented Friday by Glendale Financial Services Department Executive Director Sherry Schurhammer.

City officials have projected that keeping the team, according to the current proposed agreement, would cost the city about $2 million a year more than letting the team go. [Emphasis mine]

However, Schurhammer noted that neither the city’s nor the proposed team owners’ projections are certain, and few can project what would happen to Westgate."

Source: http://www.azcentral.com/community/g...cing-vote.html

OttawaRoughRiderFan 07-06-2013 09:31 PM

Now THAT thread title made me laugh. :laugh: Well done. :handclap:

davemac1313 07-06-2013 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MNNumbers (Post 68866509)
There is one more piece as well, Dave.

As you may know, the team has opt out rights after 5 years (and only after 5 years). If they opt out, they have apparently promised that they will pay Glendale the difference between these ancilllary revenues and 45M. In that way, CoG gets 'made whole' to the 6M in their budget.

However, having recognized that some of these revenues existed in the city budget before, we now know that this "make whole" guarantee will really be a "make whole except for the pieces that we tricked you into double counting" guarantee.

So, the City is going to lose money on this, no matter what happens. Unless, by some miracle, the Arena goes crazy with revenue and both the team and the city end up in the Black. This would take something close to the Red Sea opening again....

Thanks, I have been following this, but I must have pulled a Martinez, because I believed these surcharges to be new revenue. I have never seen the financial will of the community to support the team before, so I expected that with surcharges it would be incumbant on the Phoenix area to step up to pay. Apparently not though.......just pretend nothing is happening, the market gives no more than they did, RSE gets More than had and according to informed sources, this saves Westgate and Glendale....

Brain Dead Simple, why was there a delay on the vote anyway??? It seems like a masterful plan for all-round success and prosperity for all parties. When the COG goes BK, they get out of all those cumbersome debts and can truly support the team with 25 million a year. That old guy hasn't got a chance (prolly cause the library is closed due to staffing issues and has been leased out as a gambling hall)

MNNumbers 07-06-2013 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Llama19 (Post 68866641)
To quote:

"In the short term, Glendale would be better off rejecting a request by the Coyotes’ proposed new owners to increase the city’s financial stake in hockey, according to an analysis presented Friday by Glendale Financial Services Department Executive Director Sherry Schurhammer.

City officials have projected that keeping the team, according to the current proposed agreement, would cost the city about $2 million a year more than letting the team go. [Emphasis mine]

However, Schurhammer noted that neither the city’s nor the proposed team owners’ projections are certain, and few can project what would happen to Westgate."

Source: http://www.azcentral.com/community/g...cing-vote.html

Which is the reason the Bowers continued to point out to the Council the RISK involved in this lease. City barely on secure footing (and maybe not really, but with a plan to get there), Is it really worth the risk to keep the Coyotes, when the projections 'suggest' that it costs 2M/yr?

Of course, you MIGHT hit it big.

Seems the Council is hoping to hit it big.

Me? To me, this seems like playing POWERBALL. Like someone said, "Lottery. A tax on people who are bad at math."

And, I say that as someone far, far away from Glendale, Seattle, and Quebec. My hope is only that Glendale make good decisions, that NHL make good decisions, that Seattle make good decisions, and Quebec City, too for that matter.....

Killion 07-06-2013 09:46 PM

Ah, not so fast there MNN. manisback merely stated that theres enough on record to file a complaint & show cause in seeking injunctive relief in his opinion, which may vary from one Attorney to another; neither he nor I aware of anyone in Phoenix actually preparing to do so as of yet. Will a group of concerned citizens, the GWI do so? I believe they will.

wunderpanda 07-06-2013 09:49 PM

Wasn't Westgate already bankrupt and siezed by lenders in '11

http://www.grattorneys.com/glendales...g-foreclosure/

I think the Coyotes are just a distraction to some other cover up

MNNumbers 07-06-2013 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killion (Post 68867333)
Ah, not so fast there MNN. manisback merely stated that theres enough on record to file a complaint & show cause in seeking injunctive relief in his opinion, which may vary from one Attorney to another; neither he nor I aware of anyone in Phoenix actually preparing to do so as of yet. Will a group of concerned citizens, the GWI do so? I believe they will.

Thank you for the correction, Killion. I was unsure of his wording, and assumed the strongest possible meaning.

I appreciate having the record straight.


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