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-   -   Alex Galchenyuk Thread 11.0 - Logo Kissing Edition (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1465255)

overlords 07-08-2013 12:50 PM

Alex Galchenyuk Thread 11.0 - Logo Kissing Edition
 
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Galchenyuk
Alex galchenyuk ‏@AGally94 6 Jul
Hey @lufthansa it's been 5 days are u trying to find my bag that you guys LOST? Great effort #EMBARRASSING @Lufthansa_USA @Lufthansa_DE


overlords 07-08-2013 12:51 PM

I'm wondering if 'Great Effort' edition isn't a better name.

Erik Estrada 07-08-2013 12:57 PM

Just listened to Haggerty talk about the Seguin fiasco in Boston... Some of the problems he listed were that, because Seguin was young...
1- Seguin wasn't given enough responsibility on the team.
2- Seguin wasn't put in any position to exercise leadership.
3- Seguin was just put on the roster and taken along for the ride.

Gallchenyuk should be Center all season. That's why he was drafted...If DD is still there, Galchenyuk should be allowed to fight for PP time and ice time on an equal footing against him. No more Gomez-style preferential treatment for DD to get him to build his confidence.

Myron Gaines* 07-08-2013 01:00 PM

What a diva, trade him.

Ezpz 07-08-2013 01:00 PM

O'Byrne took it.

Theosis 07-08-2013 01:01 PM

Not sure why, but I laughed at the tweet :laugh:

Watsatheo 07-08-2013 01:03 PM

Character issues, no patience.

Goldthorpe 07-08-2013 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erik Estrada (Post 68934317)
Just listened to Haggerty talk about the Seguin fiasco in Boston... Some of the problems he listed were that, because Seguin was young...
1- Seguin wasn't given enough responsibility on the team.
2- Seguin wasn't put in any position to exercise leadership.
3- Seguin was just put on the roster and taken along for the ride.

This just sound weird. FIRST you are asked to prove your worth, THEN you are given responsabilities and asked to exerce leadership - not the other way around. In hockey, and in any other professional domain. Doing the reverse is the kind of crap a petulant teenager would complain about.

Erik Estrada 07-08-2013 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldthorpe (Post 68934665)
This just sound weird. FIRST you are asked to prove your worth, THEN you are given responsabilities and asked to exerce leadership - not the other way around. In hockey, and in any other professional domain. Doing the reverse is the kind of crap a petulant teenager would complain about.

Haggerty compared the case of Seguin with Hall. He said the Oilers didn't have a choice so they foisted responsibilities on Hall and Hall ended up developping better. Hall had to sink or swim.

He also said that no vets took Seguin under his wings to show leadership by example. He gave the example of Patrice Bergeron learning how to be a pro with Martin Lapointe when he just arrived in the NHL.

Basically, because he was younger and there was already a very strong established leadership core of Campbell, Lucic, Bergeron, etc... Seguin was just taken along for the ride and he was always the kid.

Lafleurs Guy 07-08-2013 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erik Estrada (Post 68935127)
Haggerty compared the case of Seguin with Hall. He said the Oilers didn't have a choice so they foisted responsibilities on Hall and Hall ended up developping better. Hall had to sink or swim.

He also said that no vets took Seguin under his wings to show leadership by example. He gave the example of Patrice Bergeron learning how to be a pro with Martin Lapointe when he just arrived in the NHL.

Basically, because he was younger and there was already a very strong established leadership core of Campbell, Lucic, Bergeron, etc... Seguin was just taken along for the ride and he was always the kid.

Pretty funny that folks said that the kids were going to be ruined in Edmonton because there were no vets and Hall is already arguably a top ten forward in the league. Meanwhile Seguin is on freaking Boston and they're complaining about his development...

NotProkofievian 07-08-2013 01:19 PM

Yeah, I think I'm with you Erik. How many great centermen were groomed at the NHL level on the wing for a number of years?

Last year, I think throwing him into center would've been foolish because of the fact that he played 6 games during his draft year. This last year he played in 97 games including OHL, WJC, WC, NHL, and NHL Playoffs. He got some great experience, and learned a lot by the end of it. I think it's time to let him learn on the job.

Jack Bourdain 07-08-2013 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy (Post 68935477)
Pretty funny that folks said that the kids were going to be ruined in Edmonton because there were no vets and Hall is already arguably a top ten forward in the league. Meanwhile Seguin is on freaking Boston and they're complaining about his development...

Very arguable actually. Hall is a top 10 talent I agree, but I don't think he has established enough consistency nor enough of a full body of work due to injuries to be labeled a top ten forward in the league.

Seguin, a season ago, was also arguable a top 10 center in the league. Or at least, production wise, he was.

Goldthorpe 07-08-2013 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy (Post 68935477)
Pretty funny that folks said that the kids were going to be ruined in Edmonton because there were no vets and Hall is already arguably a top ten forward in the league. Meanwhile Seguin is on freaking Boston and they're complaining about his development...

It make no sense for a team like Boston, who already had a strong leadership group, to use the "sink or swim" approach with a rookie. Teams who give big responsibilities to rookies are the one who don't already have leadership - and thus, don't have any other choice than to trust a rookie.

"I'm not motivated to get better because I don't have responsibilities" is the kind of antics a inexperienced teenager would use. The world doesn't work like that. Sure, there are exceptions, but these are precisely exceptions.

Erik Estrada 07-08-2013 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldthorpe (Post 68936293)
It make no sense for a team like Boston, who already had a strong leadership group, to use the "sink or swim" approach with a rookie. Teams who give big responsibilities to rookies are the one who don't already have leadership - and thus, don't have any other choice than to trust a rookie.

"I'm not motivated to get better because I don't have responsibilities" is the kind of antics a inexperienced teenager would use. The world doesn't work like that. Sure, there are exceptions, but these are precisely exceptions.

I agree in principle.
Galchenyuk would be an exception. He stepped in the league when he was 18... When forwards make the jump to the NHL they're often 22. If they're a Center in the AHL, they play Center in the NHL.

Galchenyuk was in an unnatural situation. He was played at a position with less responsibilities. He was given sheltered minutes. He was babied in a way Toews, Malkin, Backstrom, Staal and other top-3 drafted Centers were not when they stepped in the NHL. That was fine and I was OK with it last season. The question is how much longer can this go on until it starts being detrimental. You can't deliberately stunt growth to protect a player because he's younger.

You don't grow leaders by treating players like babies.

Ghetto Sangria 07-08-2013 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erik Estrada (Post 68936889)
I agree in principle.
Galchenyuk would be an exception. He stepped in the league when he was 18... When forwards make the jump to the NHL they're often 22. If they're a Center in the AHL, they play Center in the NHL.

Galchenyuk was in an unnatural situation. He was played at a position with less responsibilities. He was given sheltered minutes. He was babied in a way Toews, Malkin, Backstrom, Staal and other top-3 drafted Centers were not when they stepped in the NHL. That was fine and I was OK with it last season. The question is how much longer can this go on until it starts being detrimental. You can't deliberately stunt growth to protect a player because he's younger.

You don't grow leaders by treating players like babies.

For every Toews, Backstrom you got a Kesler, Giroux. There is evidence of both starting on the wing or starting at center. It's situational. One method is not particularly more effective than the other.

Jeffrey 07-08-2013 02:19 PM

Subban was also asked to sink or swim when Markov was out for the year! He had his share of mistakes but in the longterm, it paid off!!

Erik Estrada 07-08-2013 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez (Post 68938155)
For every Toews, Backstrom you got a Kesler, Giroux. There is evidence of both starting on the wing or starting at center. It's situational. One method is not particularly more effective than the other.

Do you know many Centers that were drafted Top-3 that were asked to play Wing for a couple of season before being given the opportunity to play Center?

All-Star 07-08-2013 03:24 PM

I'm sure MT will accomodate his move to center in some situations at some point next season. Whether it's for the first game or later in the season is irrelevant.

Erik Estrada 07-08-2013 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erik Estrada (Post 68934317)
Just listened to Haggerty talk about the Seguin fiasco in Boston... Some of the problems he listed were that, because Seguin was young...
1- Seguin wasn't given enough responsibility on the team.
2- Seguin wasn't put in any position to exercise leadership.
3- Seguin was just put on the roster and taken along for the ride.

Once again it could be counter-intuitive but there's some history behind this....

"The team can see the natural leaders, who are necessary, but the potential leaders are the most important. They are the people you have to get to. The natural leaders you don't have to do very much to. The potential leaders are the people who have the ability to lead and who need added responsibility. ... They have to have a role, they can't just be your extra players. The team has to know that player is important."
-Ken Hitchcock p.39 in Walter/Johnston "Simply the Best"

And for a practical application:

“Messier was having a good time, with a vengeance. A couple of years later he would admit that he went out when the lights went out and came home when they went off.

“Messier stepped out of line more than once at the start of the Oilers' season. He missed a team bus at one point and showed up late for a few practices..."
(he even missed a game in St-Louis)

Despite this:

(Kevin) Lowe remembers that Sather “pushed” him and Messier into leadership roles, “straight out” telling them: “Hey, you guys take charge. You tell'em when they're screwing up.
-in Messier (Klein) p, 30-31.

Lafleurs Guy 07-09-2013 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erik Estrada (Post 68936889)
I agree in principle.
Galchenyuk would be an exception. He stepped in the league when he was 18... When forwards make the jump to the NHL they're often 22. If they're a Center in the AHL, they play Center in the NHL.

Galchenyuk was in an unnatural situation. He was played at a position with less responsibilities. He was given sheltered minutes. He was babied in a way Toews, Malkin, Backstrom, Staal and other top-3 drafted Centers were not when they stepped in the NHL. That was fine and I was OK with it last season. The question is how much longer can this go on until it starts being detrimental. You can't deliberately stunt growth to protect a player because he's younger.

You don't grow leaders by treating players like babies.

I was actually thinking that Galchenyuk should develop in the minors... He had a good first season though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey (Post 68938175)
Subban was also asked to sink or swim when Markov was out for the year! He had his share of mistakes but in the longterm, it paid off!!

Some guys can do it, some can't.

MXD 07-09-2013 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erik Estrada (Post 68938725)
Do you know many Centers that were drafted Top-3 that were asked to play Wing for a couple of season before being given the opportunity to play Center?

Those players, mostly, were not 18 years old and weren't sidelined for nearly a whole year just prior being drafted.

Anyways, I think AG has to be a little more tested at Center, and that DD needs to be a little more tested at Wing, so we probably have a perfect match.

Erik Estrada 07-09-2013 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MXD (Post 68968315)
Those players, mostly, were not 18 years old and weren't sidelined for nearly a whole year just prior being drafted.

Anyways, I think AG has to be a little more tested at Center, and that DD needs to be a little more tested at Wing, so we probably have a perfect match.

I agree that most of those players weren't sidelined the year before with an injury. However, most of those players were 18 years old drafted out of Juniors and played in the NHL the season following the draft.

If you're drafted Top-3 as a Center you're a thoroughbred. You need to be given responsibilities.

List of Centers drafted #2 or #3 who played in the NHL right after the draft. (1982-2012)

Pat Lafontaine
Kirk Muller
Ed Olczyk
Jimmy Carson
Trevor Linden
Keith Primeau
Chris Gratton
Radek Bonk
Eric Staal
Nathan Horton
Matt Duchene
Tyler Seguin

List of Centers drafted #2 or #3 who played pro in Europe right after the draft. (1982-2012)

Alexei Yashin (Russia)
Olli Jokinen (SM-liiga)
Henrik Sedin (SEL)

List of Centers drafted #2 or #3 who played Junior Majors right after the draft. (1982-2012)

Neil Brady (bust)
Scott Thornton (bust)
David Legwand
Jason Spezza
Jonathan Huberdeau

List of Centers drafted #2 or #3 who played in US College right after the draft. (1982-2012)

Kyle Turris
Jonathan Toews (played full-time with Hawks at 19 yo-: 64-24-30-54)

Draft 07-09-2013 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erik Estrada (Post 68974139)
I agree that most of those players weren't sidelined the year before with an injury. However, most of those players were 18 years old drafted out of Juniors and played in the NHL the season following the draft.

If you're drafted Top-3 as a Center you're a thoroughbred. You need to be given responsibilities.

List of Centers drafted #2 or #3 who played in the NHL right after the draft. (1982-2002)

Pat Lafontaine
Kirk Muller
Ed Olczyk
Jimmy Carson
Trevor Linden
Keith Primeau
Chris Gratton
Radek Bonk
Eric Staal
Nathan Horton
Matt Duchene
Tyler Seguin

List of Centers drafted #2 or #3 who played pro in Europe right after the draft. (1982-2002)

Alexei Yashin (Russia)
Olli Jokinen (SM-liiga)
Henrik Sedin (SEL)

List of Centers drafted #2 or #3 who played Junior Majors right after the draft. (1982-2002)

Neil Brady (bust)
Scott Thornton (bust)
David Legwand
Jason Spezza
Jonathan Huberdeau

List of Centers drafted #2 or #3 who played in US College right after the draft. (1982-2002)

Kyle Turris
Jonathan Toews (played full-time with Hawks at 19 yo-: 64-24-30-54)

I think you mean 1982-2012. Good list though.

Erik Estrada 07-09-2013 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draft (Post 68974539)
I think you mean 1982-2012. Good list though.

Made the correction, thanks.

Coldplay 07-09-2013 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by All-Star (Post 68941813)
I'm sure MT will accomodate his move to center in some situations at some point next season. Whether it's for the first game or later in the season is irrelevant.

The question I have is how long until MT gives in and starts giving Eller/Galchenyuk DD's minutes. That's my major concern at this point (and nothing that hasn't been discussed ad nauseum on these parts).


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