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-   -   Guy Carbonneau HOF (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1473911)

Pat Paeplow 07-22-2013 10:02 PM

Guy Carbonneau HOF
 
Seriously.

Why isn't this player, or more specifically this type of player ever considered for the Hall of Fame? The only true defensive forward inducted is Bob Gainey and he's like the Wayne Gretzky of defensive forwards.

Carbonneau played for close to twenty years. He won three cups for two different organizations at each end of his career. He won three Selke trophies. In fact, stastically, he's nearly identical to Gainey.

He's arguably the second-best defensive forward of all-time. That should be good enough for the Hall-of-Fame.

Therefore, what's the argument against inducting Carbonneau? That he didn't excel at a secondary aspect of his game? Nobody gives Rod Langway a hard time because he didn't light up the score sheet.

What about the lesser versions of this player type? Rod Brind'Amour? Sergei Fedorov(although he'll probably get in for his numbers he should be remembered for his total game. The guy played shifts as a D man)? Mike Peca? Claude Lemieux? Should these names not even be brought up for consideration?

What about Patrice Bergeron? What if Patrice really wants to get into the hall? What if that's very important to him, personally? Should he rip off another 10 years playing his current style? Or should he start floating a little more?

Meanwhile, borderline offensive players like Pavel Bure and Cam Neely sneak in all the time. Does anybody realize the implication of those two in the Hall of Fame? They were amazing players for short windows in their prime but that sets a precedent that would makes it hard to argue against a player like Mike Gartner.

Should Mike Gartner be in the Hall of Fame over Guy Carbonneau?

thom 07-22-2013 10:08 PM

Yes Guy should be in hull.Look at his numbers and compare it to Gainey and Guy'-s numbers are better.Bob was more physical but Guy'-s other attributes are better than bob'-s.Guy'-s ice time was more than bob'-s.

Pat Paeplow 07-22-2013 10:16 PM

Oh and how could I forget, Carbonneau's finest hour. He singlehandedly shut down the Great One in the Finals in 1993. He outplayed the best hockey player in the history of the world on the biggest stage possible, highest stakes imaginable. I believe achievements like this should carry more weight than goals and assists recorded on a ledger.

TheDevilMadeMe 07-22-2013 10:26 PM

I think Pavel Bure should be in the Hall no matter what and I really don't see what he has to do with Mike Gartner.

But I would induct Carbonneau. His name was included in one of the recent "which of these guys would you vote for the HHOF?" threads and I was in the minority to vote for him.

Canadiens1958 07-22-2013 10:33 PM

Defensive Centers
 
Unless a great defensive center has supporting offensive number it takes awhile for them to be named to the HHOF

If we are looking at Guy Carbonneau, the following HHOF centers - Frank Nighbor, Ted Kennedy, Henri Richard, Stan Mikita, Dave Keon Bobby Clarke were better than Guy Carbonneau defensively and were far better than him offensively.

Basically Guy Carbonneau's HHOF worthiness will have to be weighed on the merits of his overall game and achievements when compared to the botton half of the HHOF centers.

Elever 07-22-2013 10:40 PM

Meh, never really a first line centre and didn't have the same star power or prestige as a Kariya or Lindros or even Theo Fleury. I wouldn't be against it but I think there are more deserving candidates.

TheDevilMadeMe 07-22-2013 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 (Post 69507723)
Unless a great defensive center has supporting offensive number it takes awhile for them to be named to the HHOF

If we are looking at Guy Carbonneau, the following HHOF centers - Frank Nighbor, Ted Kennedy, Henri Richard, Stan Mikita, Dave Keon Bobby Clarke were better than Guy Carbonneau defensively and were far better than him offensively.

Basically Guy Carbonneau's HHOF worthiness will have to be weighed on the merits of his overall game and achievements when compared to the botton half of the HHOF centers.

Are you saying that 3 centers who all played in the 1960s (Richard, Mikita, Keon) were all better defensively than the best defensive center to play the game since at least the early 80s?

Or do you think there are centers from the last 30 years better defensively than Carbs?

Evincar 07-22-2013 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeclairVt (Post 69506301)
Seriously.

Why isn't this player, or more specifically this type of player ever considered for the Hall of Fame? The only true defensive forward inducted is Bob Gainey and he's like the Wayne Gretzky of defensive forwards.

Carbonneau played for close to twenty years. He won three cups for two different organizations at each end of his career. He won three Selke trophies. In fact, stastically, he's nearly identical to Gainey.

He's arguably the second-best defensive forward of all-time. That should be good enough for the Hall-of-Fame.

Therefore, what's the argument against inducting Carbonneau? That he didn't excel at a secondary aspect of his game? Nobody gives Rod Langway a hard time because he didn't light up the score sheet.

If Carbonneau gets in, then who's next? Lehtinen, Peca, Tikkanen, Lemieux, etc should get in as there is very little separating them. So no I would not want Carbonneau in.

Quote:

What about the lesser versions of this player type? Rod Brind'Amour? Sergei Fedorov(although he'll probably get in for his numbers he should be remembered for his total game. The guy played shifts as a D man)? Mike Peca? Claude Lemieux? Should these names not even be brought up for consideration?

What about Patrice Bergeron? What if Patrice really wants to get into the hall? What if that's very important to him, personally? Should he rip off another 10 years playing his current style? Or should he start floating a little more?
Fedorov is the only name there that truly deserves to be in the Hall.

Quote:

Meanwhile, borderline offensive players like Pavel Bure and Cam Neely sneak in all the time. Does anybody realize the implication of those two in the Hall of Fame? They were amazing players for short windows in their prime but that sets a precedent that would makes it hard to argue against a player like Mike Gartner.
How do Bure and Neely set a precedent when they were significantly better players than Gartner?

Quote:

Should Mike Gartner be in the Hall of Fame over Guy Carbonneau?
Are you advocating for or against Gartner? I dont what Gartner, Neely, and Bure have do with each other. Or what Gartner has to due with Carbonneau. I thought this thread was about Carbonneau's HOF worthiness. You seem to be all over the place. Im confused. :huh:

Pat Paeplow 07-22-2013 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 69507411)
I think Pavel Bure should be in the Hall no matter what and I really don't see what he has to do with Mike Gartner.

But I would induct Carbonneau. His name was included in one of the recent "which of these guys would you vote for the HHOF?" threads and I was in the minority to vote for him.

I wouldn't disagree about Bure. He was a human highlight reel. However, he didn't contribute much beyond scoring. His +/- was shaky throughout his career. In the end, you have a guy who was a little better than ppg for only about 700 games. Most every other hall of fame forward except Cam Neely is ppg for over 1200 games.

You could argue this precedent lowers the bar statistically, opening the door for a Mike Gartner.

That being said, you could make an anecdotal argument for Bure and Neely. The legendary nature of their respective styles. If this is the reasoning for inducting these two players, its not fair to rake Carbonneau over the coals for not being ppg even though he was the premier shutdown forward of his generation and has a statistically comparable HOFer in Gainey.

VanIslander 07-22-2013 11:27 PM

Carbo was the greatest defensive forward I've ever seen. My jaw dropped watching him shadow, check and create turnovers against the very best, time and again.

I've seen Gainey since '78 but guess I didn't recognize his genius so much in my youth. Guy however, was stunning.

Gretzky, Coffey, Carbonneau, Hasek all are in the same breath when I talk about guys who did something remrkably unique at their positions (and in their roles) for years.

Joe Montana, Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods come to mind. Seriously, Carbo was ELITE at what he did, even if his role wasn't respected by all so much.

WhiskeySeven 07-22-2013 11:33 PM

My favourite player growing up, I think he should be in the HHOF. He was, as many have pointed out, a fantastic defensive forward for a long time and a three-time champion and a Selke winner.

Pat Paeplow 07-22-2013 11:38 PM

I bring up Mike Gartner because he is the exact kind of player I feel deserves being nowhere near the HOF. He hung around for a bunch of years scoring 30 goals when anyone decent was potting at least 50. He was one-dimensional, soft as hell and never stepped up in the play-offs and brought his team on a deep run.

Yet I can totally see someone post a thread on HFboards in 2025 about Mike Gartner's career stats and why isn't he in the HOF.

Carbo, I feel, is the Anti-Gartner. He's the guy you don't appreciate when you look at his stats. You have to have watched him play. These are the types of guys that shouldn't be forgotten. These are the types of guys that need to be preserved in the HOF so their name gets dropped on HFboards 100 years from now just like Frank Nighbor

Canadiens1958 07-22-2013 11:43 PM

Comparables
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 69508961)
Are you saying that 3 centers who all played in the 1960s (Richard, Mikita, Keon) were all better defensively than the best defensive center to play the game since at least the early 80s?

Or do you think there are centers from the last 30 years better defensively than Carbs?

Yes. Basic difference is that Henri Richard, Stan Mikita, Dave Keon from their first or second season onwards all elevated the defensive games of wingers that they played with. Guy Carbonneau's defence benefited from Bob Gainey for roughly the first third of his career.

Comparing Guy Carboneau to his contemporaries at center between 1980 and 2000 he was the best defensively in terms of longevity. Jarvis at times early in his career and Peca late in his career had nice runs defensively but far from Carbonneau's longevity. Other could sneak in a stretch but inevitably faded or fell back due to injuries.

Post 2000 still waiting to see how the careers of Pavel Datsyuk and Patrice Bergeron finish.

Killion 07-22-2013 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 (Post 69509903)
Post 2000 still waiting to see how the careers of Pavel Datsyuk and Patrice Bergeron finish.

Toews in Chicago as well. That guy can play coming & going. Eric Staal's another.

Dark Shadows 07-23-2013 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 (Post 69507723)
Unless a great defensive center has supporting offensive number it takes awhile for them to be named to the HHOF

If we are looking at Guy Carbonneau, the following HHOF centers - Frank Nighbor, Ted Kennedy, Henri Richard, Stan Mikita, Dave Keon Bobby Clarke were better than Guy Carbonneau defensively and were far better than him offensively.

Basically Guy Carbonneau's HHOF worthiness will have to be weighed on the merits of his overall game and achievements when compared to the botton half of the HHOF centers.

Those two never get nearly enough credit for this.

I try and try to tell people about Henri Richard being that good defensively.

Canadiens1958 07-23-2013 12:15 AM

Potentially
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Killion (Post 69510099)
Toews in Chicago as well. That guy can play coming & going. Eric Staal's another.

Jonathan Toews potentially but I would like to see how he does without a RHS center the quality of Dave Bolland on the Hawks.

Staal brothers in Carolina. Potentially, especially if collectively they are better than the sum of their individual attributes. Still have to overcome the fact that neither is a RHS. Their size, if one was a RHS they would be lethal defensively.

Canadiens1958 07-23-2013 12:21 AM

Henri Richard
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Shadows (Post 69510317)
Those two never get nearly enough credit for this.

I try and try to tell people about Henri Richard being that good defensively.

Hard to explain especially to those with a mindset that great defensive players should be used to kill penalties. Toe Blake very rarely used him on the PK and this continued thru the end of his career.

Killion 07-23-2013 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 (Post 69510689)
Jonathan Toews potentially..
Staal brothers in Carolina...

Yes thats an interesting suggestion about the Staal's. Claude
Giroux, Patrice Bergeron & Antoine Vermette also fairly adept.

Morgoth Bauglir 07-23-2013 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeclairVt (Post 69509789)
Yet I can totally see someone post a thread on HFboards in 2025 about Mike Gartner's career stats and why isn't he in the HOF.

You realize Gartner was inducted into the HOF in 2001 right?

Canadiens1958 07-23-2013 12:45 AM

Combos
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Killion (Post 69510925)
Yes thats an interesting suggestion about the Staal's. Claude
Giroux,
Patrice Bergeron & Antoine Vermette also fairly adept.

Claude Giroux and Sean Couturier could be a very effective RHS/LHS combo if Philly ever gets their management and coaching together.

Killion 07-23-2013 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 (Post 69511437)
Claude Giroux and Sean Couturier could be a very effective RHS/LHS combo if Philly ever gets their management and coaching together.

Sean is the Son of Sylvain Couturier who played most of his career in the minors (IHL) and with Los Angeles on call-up, went on to become the GM of the Titan in the QMJHL. He was apparently a fairly crafty 2 way Centre himself, certainly in the IHL, key face-off guy, some hockey smarts, nicknamed "Sly". Played it both ways consistently.

double5son10 07-23-2013 02:58 AM

Here's another vote for Carbonneau. He belongs. He has the hardware, he was elite at what he did, he has the longevity (7th all-time in playoff games played), he has memorable playoff performances against some of the best ever (Gretzky in '93, Forsberg in '00). One of the very best shot blockers the games ever seen, great on face-offs, a wonderful skater with excellent anticipation and as hardworking as any player I've ever seen. Also an underrated scorer during his years in Montreal, who often seemed to come up with the big goal in key situations; during the '86 playoffs he was behind only Claude Lemieux and Mats Naslund for goals on that Montreal team.

unknown33 07-23-2013 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 (Post 69510963)
You realize Gartner was inducted into the HOF in 2001 right?

You realize that he is suggesting a scenario in which Gartner wasn't inducted and that people who haven't seen him play would advocate his HHoF worthiness based on career stats in the future in this case?

ot92s 07-23-2013 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unknown33 (Post 69515605)
You realize that he is suggesting a scenario in which Gartner wasn't inducted and that people who haven't seen him play would advocate his HHoF worthiness based on career stats in the future in this case?

Pfffffttt.....weak save attempt...

Darth Yoda 07-23-2013 09:33 AM

Guy Carbonneau was a better player then Mike Gartner was, so yes, he should be in. But then again there's probably at least a handful of soviet forwards that was better then Gartner as well and they're not inducted either, so surely there is perhaps a need for a new Hall since the IIHF one is not exactly top-notch either.


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