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-   -   Prospect Info: Top 20 Flyers Prospects, #6 (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1474333)

BillyShoe1721 07-23-2013 02:49 PM

Top 20 Flyers Prospects, #6
 
1. C Scott Laughton(77.36%)
2. D Samuel Morin(59.70%)
3. D Robert Hagg(69.74%)
4. D Shayne Gostisbehere(66.30%)
5. G Anthony Stolarz(48.15%)
6. C Nick Cousins(77.22%)
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FlyersFan61290 07-23-2013 03:06 PM

Voted Cousins, if he wins I'll be going Straka next.

BernieParent 07-23-2013 03:12 PM

Where do I write in Goulbourne?

sobrien 07-23-2013 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 (Post 69531987)
Voted Cousins, if he wins I'll be going Straka next.

ditto

Quote:

Originally Posted by BernieParent (Post 69532273)
Where do I write in Goulbourne?

On your forehead

King Forsberg 07-23-2013 03:23 PM

With what's left, this should be the most unanimous vote yet.

jd2210 07-23-2013 04:30 PM

Easiest vote of the poll: Cousins.

I'd say add Heeter or Johnston. (I've been assuming with my suggestions that neither Raffl or Holmstrom will be added due to age)

Stizzle 07-23-2013 05:14 PM

Cousins. After this one, it's going to be all over the place. An argument could be made for a lot of different guys.

Hockeypete49 07-23-2013 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BernieParent (Post 69532273)
Where do I write in Goulbourne?

I have him rated higher than some on that list right now.

LegionOfDoom91 07-23-2013 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stizzle (Post 69537019)
Cousins. After this one, it's going to be all over the place. An argument could be made for a lot of different guys.

I think Straka goes next & then really it's a toss up from there. I would go with Straka, McGinn, Noebels, & Leier to round out the top 10 personally.

Damaged Goods 07-23-2013 05:22 PM

Re-posting CHL numbers from the last thread:

Age 16
Nick Cousins -- 67 GP, 32 P
Tye McGinn -- N/A

Age 17
Nick Cousins -- 68 GP, 68 P
Tye McGinn -- 59 GP, 11 P

Age 18
Nick Cousins -- 65 GP, 88 P
Tye McGinn -- 48 GP, 30 P

Age 19
Nick Cousins -- 64 GP, 103 P
Tye McGinn -- 50 GP, 62 P

Age 20
Nick Cousins -- N/A
Tye McGinn -- 42 GP, 64 P

JDinkalage Morgoone 07-23-2013 05:26 PM

I go McGinn just because he's got experience and has shown that his game has a decent chance of translating to the NHL.

LegionOfDoom91 07-23-2013 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damaged Goods (Post 69537301)
Re-posting CHL numbers from the last thread:

Age 16
Nick Cousins -- 67 GP, 32 P
Tye McGinn -- N/A

Age 17
Nick Cousins -- 68 GP, 68 P
Tye McGinn -- 59 GP, 11 P

Age 18
Nick Cousins -- 65 GP, 88 P
Tye McGinn -- 48 GP, 30 P

Age 19
Nick Cousins -- 64 GP, 103 P
Tye McGinn -- 50 GP, 62 P

Age 20
Nick Cousins -- N/A
Tye McGinn -- 42 GP, 64 P

That's pretty irrelevant considering neither of them will be big time point producers at the next level. I voted for Cousins because he has a little more upside but I don't see him becoming anything special at the next level.

Damaged Goods 07-23-2013 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 (Post 69537611)
That's pretty irrelevant considering neither of them will be big time point producers at the next level. I voted for Cousins because he has a little more upside but I don't see him becoming anything special at the next level.

And your reason for discounting the possibility that there could be an appreciable offensive difference between Cousins and McGinn at the pro level?

JDinkalage Morgoone 07-23-2013 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damaged Goods (Post 69537785)
And your reason for discounting the possibility that there could be an appreciable offensive difference between Cousins and McGinn at the pro level?

I dunno, I don't see Cousins becoming another Marchand. I hope he does, but Marchand seems to have elevated his game to beyound only being a pest. I think Cousins will be an above average scoring pest (above average as in above the average pest, not above average scoring in general.)

LegionOfDoom91 07-23-2013 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damaged Goods (Post 69537785)
And your reason for discounting the possibility that there could be an appreciable offensive difference between Cousins and McGinn at the pro level?

Cousins' skating & size are concerns. Hell, he won't even make the NHL if he doesn't learn how to play defense.

I just don't put as much stock into stats especially from Juniors, they only tell half of the story if that.

markzab 07-23-2013 05:47 PM

Surprised Raffl isnt even on the list.

FlyersFan61290 07-23-2013 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone (Post 69537895)
I dunno, I don't see Cousins becoming another Marchand. I hope he does, but Marchand seems to have elevated his game to beyound only being a pest. I think Cousins will be an above average scoring pest (above average as in above the average pest, not above average scoring in general.)

Idk the puck just follows this kid and he's got some skill too. I see Cousins as a 35+ pt guy who will irritate the **** out of the opposing players.

JDinkalage Morgoone 07-23-2013 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 (Post 69538167)
Idk the puck just follows this kid and he's got some skill too. I see Cousins as a 35+ pt guy who will irritate the **** out of the opposing players.

Don't get me wrong, I hope so!

Stizzle 07-23-2013 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markzab (Post 69538145)
Surprised Raffl isnt even on the list.

I'm really not sure what the criteria is for being in the poll, but if MA Bourdon and Kyle Flanagan are listed, so should Raffl.

Damaged Goods 07-23-2013 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone (Post 69537895)
I dunno, I don't see Cousins becoming another Marchand. I hope he does, but Marchand seems to have elevated his game to beyound only being a pest. I think Cousins will be an above average scoring pest (above average as in above the average pest, not above average scoring in general.)

There's a biiiiiig gap between Marchand and McGinn offensively. The NHL equivalency of McGinn's AHL numbers is about 15 points per 82. Marchand is at 50 points per 82 at the NHL level. If you think Cousins is closer to Marchand than he is to McGinn, he is the easy choice.


Quote:

Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 (Post 69538035)
Cousins' skating & size are concerns. Hell, he won't even make the NHL if he doesn't learn how to play defense.

I just don't put as much stock into stats especially from Juniors, they only tell half of the story if that.

Cousins has 3 years to catch up to McGinn in terms of getting stronger and more positionally sound.

The most lucrative talent you can bring to an NHL roster is scoring ability, and Cousins has shown he's far more advanced on that front.

LegionOfDoom91 07-23-2013 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damaged Goods (Post 69542067)
Cousins has 3 years to catch up to McGinn in terms of getting stronger and more positionally sound.

The most lucrative talent you can bring to an NHL roster is scoring ability, and Cousins has shown he's far more advanced on that front.

Dude, I'm not arguing if Cousins has more upside or is the better prospect right now over McGinn. I even said I voted for Cousins & would put Straka next over McGinn.

All I said is that posting their junior stats really means nothing. There's been plenty of guys who put up big numbers in Juniors & went on to do jack **** in the Pros. People look way too much into stats was my point.

Hell someone on here was questioning whether Nichushkin was worthy of top 10 selection earlier this year because he only put up a few points in the KHL this year. That's stat watching at its finest.

Damaged Goods 07-23-2013 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 (Post 69542549)
Dude, I'm not arguing if Cousins has more upside or is the better prospect right now over McGinn. I even said I voted for Cousins & would put Straka next over McGinn.

Yet you are arguing that the main evidence for valuing Cousins over McGinn is irrelevant.


Quote:

Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 (Post 69542549)
All I said is that posting their junior stats really means nothing. There's been plenty of guys who put up big numbers in Juniors & went on to do jack **** in the Pros. People look way too much into stats was my point.

Well, you're wrong. Meaningful relationships between Junior scoring and NHL success have been shown to exist (see link for one of many studies). You can get useful data from Junior. You're going to get varying results with any method for projecting future results. That goes for scouting analysis, stats analysis, or any combination of the two. That doesn't mean you're just as well throwing out all the data.

http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2009/...r-predict.html


Quote:

Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 (Post 69542549)
Hell someone on here was questioning whether Nichushkin was worthy of top 10 selection earlier this year because he only put up a few points in the KHL this year. That's stat watching at its finest.

Take it up with them. We're talking about two players who both played Junior at typical ages.

LegionOfDoom91 07-23-2013 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damaged Goods (Post 69543779)
Yet you are arguing that the main evidence for valuing Cousins over McGinn is irrelevant.

Well, you're wrong. Meaningful relationships between Junior scoring and NHL success have been shown to exist (see link for one of many studies). You can get useful data from Junior. You're going to get varying results with any method for projecting future results. That goes for scouting analysis, stats analysis, or any combination of the two. That doesn't mean you're just as well throwing out all the data.

http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2009/...r-predict.html

Wait so you discredit Gostisbehere because of his draft position & physical traits despite putting up good numbers in college but if I do the same with Cousins it doesn't count? I don't get it. :dunno:

My personal opinion is that Cousins won't be anymore than a 30 point guy max in the NHL because of his limitations. I hope I'm wrong but I just don't see it.

I'm not buying your study here in the case of Cousins. Stats are half the battle.

Damaged Goods 07-23-2013 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 (Post 69545899)
Wait so you discredit Gostisbehere because of his draft position & physical traits despite putting up good numbers in college but if I do the same with Cousins it doesn't count? I don't get it. :dunno:

I never discredited Ghostisbehere. I said he hasn't proven that he's a top-tier prospect. 44 points in 77 ECAC games and a #78 overall selection sans outstanding physical traits do not a top tier prospect make.

If he does something like what Dan Boyle did in his Junior year (54 points in 40 games), or Justin Schultz (44 points in 37 games), or Jake Gardiner (41 P in 41 G) or even Jack Johnson (39 P in 36 G) while wowing scouts, then there will be a legitimate argument for Ghost as a premium prospect.

My argument is that to this point he simply does not possess the resume to make him a "top tier" prospect. I don't think he even possesses the resume to push him ahead of Cousins (who I do not view as "top tier" either).


Quote:

Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 (Post 69545899)
My personal opinion is that Cousins won't be anymore than a 30 point guy max in the NHL because of his limitations. I hope I'm wrong but I just don't see it.

I'm not buying your study here in the case of Cousins. Stats are half the battle.

That's a far cry from calling the stats I provided irrelevant and meaningless. I put them up here because I believe they are meaningful and add value to the conversation, not because I think they are the be-all, end-all. But in this case, there is such an overwhelming difference in the statistical resumes of two mid-round selections that I think it speaks volumes.

Norm MacDonald 07-23-2013 11:06 PM

Part of me thinks that a strong-skating, big forward (McGinn) is a safer bet than a somewhat undersized, poor skating forward (Cousins). Nevertheless, I still voted Cousins because he has a higher ceiling.


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