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pcamp 08-03-2013 08:06 AM

Sheltering top prospects
 
I was just wondering what was your take on sheltering a young player like Galchenyuk. It seems that the general consensus around here is that sheltering him in a 3rd line role is the best thing for him. But if you look at Hall vs Seguin now you realise that Hall is way better than Seguin and we are already talking about how Yakupov will score a lot more points than Galchenyuk next year. So my question is should Therrien give him 3rd line duties or could he play on the wing (for now) in a top six role?

disturbedraven 08-03-2013 08:13 AM

It's smart thinking, plain and simple. Keep in mind he (Chucky) has never played at a Pro level. He went straight from the OHL. Gally got a taste of the AHL before hitting the NHL which gave him an idea of just how hard the competition was likely to be. The Gally's started out sheltered, but Gally eventually became less so because he was more prepared for it by having play Pro. Putting Chucky in when the chances to success were greater than failure was a good way to build confidence and protect him from the potential of having his confidence shaken.

Dagistitsyn 08-03-2013 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pcamp (Post 69887387)
I was just wondering what was your take on sheltering a young player like Galchenyuk. It seems that the general consensus around here is that sheltering him in a 3rd line role is the best thing for him. But if you look at Hall vs Seguin now you realise that Hall is way better than Seguin and we are already talking about how Yakupov will score a lot more points than Galchenyuk next year. So my question is should Therrien give him 3rd line duties or could he play on the wing (for now) in a top six role?

I wouldn't say Hall is way better, but there is a reason Hall and Yakupov went 1st overall in their drafts. They're just really damn good.

I think Galchenyuk could definitely play top 6 right now, but I don't expect him too with the amount of players we have who can play top6.

MasterD 08-03-2013 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pcamp (Post 69887387)
I was just wondering what was your take on sheltering a young player like Galchenyuk. It seems that the general consensus around here is that sheltering him in a 3rd line role is the best thing for him. But if you look at Hall vs Seguin now you realise that Hall is way better than Seguin and we are already talking about how Yakupov will score a lot more points than Galchenyuk next year. So my question is should Therrien give him 3rd line duties or could he play on the wing (for now) in a top six role?

Seguin might have had off-ice issues, but he doesn't have any issues with skills, IMO.

Also, of course Yakupov will probably end up with more points than Galchenyuk, he plays with more talented players than the Galchenyuk's teammates, and the team will rely on him more, while we'll be relying on Plekanec, Desharnais and Eller as centermen before Gally.

Lastly, Galchenyuk came in the league really young after missing a whole year of development. He needed more time to adapt because of it.

I think Galchenyuk needs to get softer minutes again this year (those same minutes that Desharnais is getting), and then next year he shoukd be relied on as 2nd liner at least.

pezcore 08-03-2013 08:54 AM

I think its fine what Therrien is doing easing him in even though it is frustrating as a fan to watch one of the best offensive players (talent wise) on the bench in the 3rd period of the playoffs. I hope that, gradually this year, MT gives him a little bit more responsibility and more ice time. I fully expect that by the end of the year that Galchenyuk is on the top 6....maybe not as a center. In my opinion, by the end of the 14-15 season, Gally needs to be our #1 C

CP31 08-03-2013 09:21 AM

I think he gets a top 6 job within the first 15 games.

Habsterix* 08-03-2013 09:43 AM

I like the idea, especially last year after he missed almost an entire season in the OHL.

I have a feeling that Galchenyuk's playing time this season will depend on... Galchenyuk himself. If he shows that he should be getting more quality ice time, they will give it to him. I don't think that they have a plan set no matter how he plays. They will continue to monitor his progress and bring him up as he performs. Remember though, they're not only looking at offense here, but at making him a well rounded player.

LyricalLyricist 08-03-2013 11:21 AM

The idea is to challenge him but just enough to not overwhelm him. He has the talent to succeed and they will take their time but he might be ready for a bigger role sooner or maybe later. His play will dictate that.

Teufelsdreck 08-03-2013 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterD (Post 69887765)
Seguin might have had off-ice issues, but he doesn't have any issues with skills, IMO.

Also, of course Yakupov will probably end up with more points than Galchenyuk, he plays with more talented players than the Galchenyuk's teammates, and the team will rely on him more, while we'll be relying on Plekanec, Desharnais and Eller as centermen before Gally.

Lastly, Galchenyuk came in the league really young after missing a whole year of development. He needed more time to adapt because of it.

I think Galchenyuk needs to get softer minutes again this year (those same minutes that Desharnais is getting), and then next year he should be relied on as 2nd liner at least.

You make good points about all the players you name. I'm glad Galchenyuk got through his rookie year without being mugged by some oaf.

pcamp 08-03-2013 12:22 PM

Personally, after is playoff performance, being one of our best forwards during our brief playoff stint I would love to see him next to plekanec if they don't want to separate desharnais and pacioretty

No Team Needed 08-03-2013 12:48 PM

Montreal doesn't run a top six. Why are people still stuck on this?

Montreal runs three scoring lines. The third line last season got less minutes and weaker competition but was still treated as a scoring line. That's why Galchenyuk, Gallgher and Eller still put up solid offensive statistics. Eller was never on a "top six" last season but had more points than "Toronto Maple Leafs first line center" Tyler Bozak as well as "Montreal Canadiens top six center" David Desharnais. If he was back on the Blues he'd be second in scoring for them. Therrien was never running a "if you're out of the top six you don't play offence" system. It's the Plekanec line that gets the most critical defensive matchups which is why it's so impressive that Plek can get so many points while being expected to shadow the best players on the opposing team.

First line, second line, third line, it doesn't matter. It's all offensive lines. It's really more about earning minutes.

NewHabsEra* 08-03-2013 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pcamp (Post 69887387)
I was just wondering what was your take on sheltering a young player like Galchenyuk. It seems that the general consensus around here is that sheltering him in a 3rd line role is the best thing for him. But if you look at Hall vs Seguin now you realise that Hall is way better than Seguin and we are already talking about how Yakupov will score a lot more points than Galchenyuk next year. So my question is should Therrien give him 3rd line duties or could he play on the wing (for now) in a top six role?

IMO this isnt a matter of development, Hall was destined to be a superstar while Seguin is good but thats it..

Teufelsdreck 08-03-2013 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewHabsEra (Post 69892019)
IMO this isnt a matter of development, Hall was destined to be a superstar while Seguin is good but thats it..

I recall the debates in the media about Taylor vs. Tyler. They were both highly regarded and the separation wasn't that apparent. Seguin has potential superstar attributes but sometimes he plays as though his name were spelled Sequin.

No Team Needed 08-03-2013 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewHabsEra (Post 69892019)
IMO this isnt a matter of development, Hall was destined to be a superstar while Seguin is good but thats it..

Seguin is 21 years old. A little early for that.

Estimated_Prophet 08-03-2013 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewHabsEra (Post 69892019)
IMO this isnt a matter of development, Hall was destined to be a superstar while Seguin is good but thats it..

Probably a little early to cap Seguin's potential.....

As for the development debate, it is mostly a myth that is regurgitated endlessly by fans and media. Most talented players are going to reach their potential regardless of their circumstances. A team can expedite the process by providing favourable conditions but to claim that there is a great difference to be made by a development program is fodder for fantasy at best.

There are far too many examples of different routes to stardom to claim that one specific road is the best. The development program is most effective with project picks that need a lot of coaching/guidance in order to fix weaknesses on and off of the ice.

onemorecup* 08-03-2013 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dagistitsyn (Post 69887677)
I wouldn't say Hall is way better, but there is a reason Hall and Yakupov went 1st overall in their drafts. They're just really damn good.

I think Galchenyuk could definitely play top 6 right now, but I don't expect him too with the amount of players we have who can play top6.

he is a lock for top 6

WHO THE F is standing in his way DD , BRIERE :laugh::laugh::laugh:

he proved he belongs , he was our best forward in the playoffs

he has sick skills ....ITS GALCHY TIME

LyricalLyricist 08-03-2013 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onemorecup (Post 69901805)
he is a lock for top 6

WHO THE F is standing in his way DD , BRIERE :laugh::laugh::laugh:

he proved he belongs , he was our best forward in the playoffs

he has sick skills ....ITS GALCHY TIME

patience is your best quality I see.

Dekar 08-03-2013 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Team Needed (Post 69891991)
Montreal doesn't run a top six. Why are people still stuck on this?

Montreal runs three scoring lines. The third line last season got less minutes and weaker competition but was still treated as a scoring line. That's why Galchenyuk, Gallgher and Eller still put up solid offensive statistics. Eller was never on a "top six" last season but had more points than "Toronto Maple Leafs first line center" Tyler Bozak as well as "Montreal Canadiens top six center" David Desharnais. If he was back on the Blues he'd be second in scoring for them. Therrien was never running a "if you're out of the top six you don't play offence" system. It's the Plekanec line that gets the most critical defensive matchups which is why it's so impressive that Plek can get so many points while being expected to shadow the best players on the opposing team.

First line, second line, third line, it doesn't matter. It's all offensive lines. It's really more about earning minutes.

This point is true. We've been running a top line and a line 2A and 2B for quite awhile now. Given the number of capable forwards we have, it's good because it allows for lots of line juggling to find good chemistry without sacrificing too much on the defensive side of things, and rolling three scoring lines will keep players more fresh if you spread out the ice time. Galchenyuk is in a great situation right now. I only hope he's pushed and not demanded. Sheltering isn't really a great way to develop guys if they're capable of more. Challenge them and the great ones will respond.

Dada 08-03-2013 09:57 PM

Since he will cleary not play center, I'd love to see him on the RW with Pleky

Alexdaman 08-03-2013 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dada (Post 69905129)
Since he will cleary not play center, I'd love to see him on the RW with Pleky

Since he clearly will not play center, maybe MB could trade Galchenyuk for Drouin...

Galchenyuk or Drouin, that's quite a conundrum.

NewHabsEra* 08-03-2013 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Team Needed (Post 69892305)
Seguin is 21 years old. A little early for that.

Obviously he wasnt too young to be traded some weeks ago..

Dada 08-03-2013 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexdaman (Post 69905387)
Since he clearly will not play center, maybe MB could trade Galchenyuk for Drouin...

Galchenyuk or Drouin, that's quite a conundrum.

That's a hard one

DAChampion 08-03-2013 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Team Needed (Post 69891991)
Montreal doesn't run a top six. Why are people still stuck on this?

Montreal runs three scoring lines. The third line last season got less minutes and weaker competition but was still treated as a scoring line. That's why Galchenyuk, Gallgher and Eller still put up solid offensive statistics. Eller was never on a "top six" last season but had more points than "Toronto Maple Leafs first line center" Tyler Bozak as well as "Montreal Canadiens top six center" David Desharnais. If he was back on the Blues he'd be second in scoring for them. Therrien was never running a "if you're out of the top six you don't play offence" system. It's the Plekanec line that gets the most critical defensive matchups which is why it's so impressive that Plek can get so many points while being expected to shadow the best players on the opposing team.

First line, second line, third line, it doesn't matter. It's all offensive lines. It's really more about earning minutes.

Depends how you look at it.

ES TOI/Game for centers last year:
Plekanec, 14:08
Desharnais, 13:27
Eller, 12:39
White, 8:20

ES Offensive Zone Starts
Plekanec, 204
Desharnais, 240
Eller, 167
White, 30

PK TOI/Game for centers last year:
Plekanec, 2:06
Desharnais, 0:07
Eller, 1:28
White, 0:59

PP TOI/Game for centers last year:
Plekanec, 2:58
Desharnais, 2:53
Eller, 0:42
White, 0:04

Plekanec is the team's number 1 center in defense, and the 1B center on offense. Desharnais is the 1A center on offense. Eller is the number 2 center in defensive situations and number 3 center on offense. For every two even-strength offensive zone starts that Eller gets, Desharnais gets three. For every minute of PP time Eller gets, Desharnais gets over 4 minutes.

You're right that there's some overlap, but there's no doubt in my mind that a young offensive talent in the NHL or a 27 year old sniper in a contract year would rather be on Desharnais' line than on Eller's line. There is an offensive top-6 in Montreal, and last year in Montreal this was the Plekanec and Desharnais lines.

prairie hab 08-03-2013 11:32 PM

You all have to consider the destination of these top picks.

Edmonton has drafted in the top third of the draft, and within the first few picks frequently over the past several years. THAT IS BECAUSE THEIR TEAM IS AWFUL. They NEED players like Yakupov, Nugent-Hopkins and Hall to play top 6 positions because the team lacks overall quality depth.

Teams like Boston could afford to bring Seguin along slowly, as they were already in solid shape before acquiring Toronto's picks. We are somewhere in between: we need to get the most out of our drafts, and I feel Timmins has done well in stocking the prospect pool. This will eventually be able to serve as "currency" if the brass feels we have a window of serious contention (2-5 years IMO). We generally perform well enough to be a playoff team, but have had struggles for the better part of 20 years in making any noise come playoff time. Moves to either bolster for better draft position or bring in high profile free agents always come with a big price. The "tanking" approach has served nobody well unless you have the luck of Pittsburgh in a draft lottery getting the likes of Crosby, and hitting years where great talent like Malkin were available.

Bringing the likes of a Galchenyuk along slowly is a good approach in my opinion. The entire roster needs to improve over a couple seasons' work by Bergevin and his staff. No need to put unnecessary pressure on the kids in their development - it will happen soon enough. Last year was a great start for Galchenyuk and Gallagher specifically.

S Bah 08-04-2013 10:07 AM

For a person to answer this question properly they truly should have a background in hockey or be able to draw on decades of watching players. My take is one of bringing players along slowly and carefully is the best. Here are reasons why;

1) The biggest concern is injuries some have been career ending and others that decreased the players mobility so much that they never realized their potential.

2) Learning to play a complete game,(defensive mins.,PK mins.,PP mins.offensive mins.) playing defensive time 5 on 5, 3rd line, PK time next, then defence zone play followed by last minute play in periods and end of game. Then last minute play in close games or playoffs. Finally when the player has accomplished these, then comes the same on offence with short bursts of PP time until he shows he can be counted on consistently.
Many players haven't learned this way to start and it takes years later, when SC championships are on the line it's a bad time to learn and hurts the players confidence.

3) By learning slowly how each position is best played in the above manner, or by watching the positions they don't play, they become far greater players and teammates.(The most important thing to learn, it's a team game)

Just my opinion from watching the Habs play since the 50's, along with all of the Super Series, Canada Cups, WHC's etc. The best Hockey series ever IMO was the 1976 Canada Cup, followed closely by the 1987 Canada Cup. Phenomenal Hockey!:nod:


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