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-   -   Zetterberg vs. Gilmour (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1486895)

Fred Taylor 08-19-2013 04:53 PM

Zetterberg vs. Gilmour
 
Who was better in their prime?

BraveCanadian 08-19-2013 04:55 PM

Gilmour.

Zetterberg was great in those back to back Finals runs though.. but Gilmour was from another world at his best.

feffan 08-19-2013 05:35 PM

Zetterberg is in competition for the best PO-player since the 04/05-lockout - but this isnīt really fair to him. Gilmours prime/peak belong among the really great ones.

Big Phil 08-19-2013 05:50 PM

Have to go with Gilmour on this one for sure. Zetterberg was never in the running for the Hart trophy. Give him credit for winning the Smythe though, but that's the only thing he has on Gilmour in my opinion. Gilmour was at least as strong defensively, was better offensively, was more physical and just played with more tenacity.

At his best you wouldn't have passed Gilmour for Zetterberg.

Ishdul 08-19-2013 05:54 PM

Gilmour, surely.

habsfanatics* 08-19-2013 06:58 PM

Gilmour

Godot 08-19-2013 07:17 PM

Killer.

Dark Shadows 08-19-2013 08:14 PM

Killer

The 86-87, 92-93 and 93-94 years are each better than anything Zetz has really hit, although I have felt Zetz was underrated defensively (One year for certain I felt he was better than Datz)

silkyjohnson50 08-19-2013 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Shadows (Post 70343051)
Killer

The 86-87, 92-93 and 93-94 years are each better than anything Zetz has really hit, although I have felt Zetz was underrated defensively (One year for certain I felt he was better than Datz)

07-08 was without question Z's best season. Had a better p/g than Datsyuk who finished with 97 points, was dominant defensively all year long, and had a monster postseason that resulted in the Conn Smythe. Coincidentally or not, however, that was the season that he and Datsyuk spent the most time together post lockout. But even when he and Datsyuk were split for road playoff games, Zetterberg was absolutely fantastic. IMO his skating was at its peak that season. He's obviously had some very good postseasons since then, but he's never quite put together a regular season like that since. Offensively or defensively. Defensively he's spent a lot more time in the defensive zone and gets scored on much more often. But that year they completely tilted the ice (their Corsi was about as good as it gets that season from start to finish) while also getting matched up against top lines when Babcock had the opportunity to.

I honestly don't think it's that crazy to say that Zetterberg was the best player in the world in 07-08. Anything less than top 5 I wouldn't agree with.

silkyjohnson50 08-19-2013 09:52 PM

How would people compare Gilmour vs Fedorov at their best?

Dark Shadows 08-19-2013 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 (Post 70346299)
07-08 was without question Z's best season. Had a better p/g than Datsyuk who finished with 97 points, was dominant defensively all year long, and had a monster postseason that resulted in the Conn Smythe. Coincidentally or not, however, that was the season that he and Datsyuk spent the most time together post lockout. But even when he and Datsyuk were split for road playoff games, Zetterberg was absolutely fantastic. IMO his skating was at its peak that season. He's obviously had some very good postseasons since then, but he's never quite put together a regular season like that since. Offensively or defensively. Defensively he's spent a lot more time in the defensive zone and gets scored on much more often. But that year they completely tilted the ice (their Corsi was about as good as it gets that season from start to finish) while also getting matched up against top lines when Babcock had the opportunity to.

I honestly don't think it's that crazy to say that Zetterberg was the best player in the world in 07-08. Anything less than top 5 I wouldn't agree with.

I suppose I could agree with top 5. He was fantastic on both ends of the ice. The scene is a bit different than Gilmour though, in the sense that his dominance had a bit more "team boost" going for it. I do not mean just offensive numbers. Lidstrom finished 4th for the Hart and Datz also deserved selke votes, although I did think Zetz was better.

Ovechkin and Malkin both had seasons that tilted the ice a bit more than Zetz, and Thornton was a beast, carrying that Sharks team on his back(outscoring his nearest teammate by 75% is pretty remarkable)

Brodeur also had a stellar year. But him and Zetz could easily share the 5th spot.

Ill stand by Gilmour's best 3 seasons though. In 86-87, 5th for the Hart, but Behind Gretzky/Bourque/Luit/Lemieux. Hard to get above those guys during those seasons. Gretzky and Lemieux are obvious. Bourque scored 95 points over the next best teammate's 72, and was 9th in scoring overall. The Bruins GF vs GA with him on and off the ice was ridiculous. Liut was also playing just incredibly on a pretty forgettable team.

92-93 and 93-94 speak for themselves. He just took that team on his back and carried them. Definitely deserved his 2nd and 4th hart finishes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 (Post 70346391)
How would people compare Gilmour vs Fedorov at their best?

That may be a different matter. Fedorov's best year IMO was better than Gilmour's(unless you add playoffs) by a little. Dougie was great, but Fedorov was even better defensively.

Fedorov bugs me because he did not give 100% every game in the regular season, but kind of redeems himself in the playoffs, where he always did.

Terry Yake 08-19-2013 11:10 PM

gilmour without a doubt

Hardyvan123 08-20-2013 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 (Post 70346299)
07-08 was without question Z's best season. Had a better p/g than Datsyuk who finished with 97 points, was dominant defensively all year long, and had a monster postseason that resulted in the Conn Smythe. Coincidentally or not, however, that was the season that he and Datsyuk spent the most time together post lockout. But even when he and Datsyuk were split for road playoff games, Zetterberg was absolutely fantastic. IMO his skating was at its peak that season. He's obviously had some very good postseasons since then, but he's never quite put together a regular season like that since. Offensively or defensively. Defensively he's spent a lot more time in the defensive zone and gets scored on much more often. But that year they completely tilted the ice (their Corsi was about as good as it gets that season from start to finish) while also getting matched up against top lines when Babcock had the opportunity to.

I honestly don't think it's that crazy to say that Zetterberg was the best player in the world in 07-08. Anything less than top 5 I wouldn't agree with.

I think pretty much that Zetts had the best all around game in the world in 07-08 if one looks at both the regular season and playoffs and quality of play over that entire time.

Other guys might have been more flashy and maybe one could pick Dats over Zetts but not the other guys IMO

Quote:

Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 (Post 70346391)
How would people compare Gilmour vs Fedorov at their best?

That's a tough call, what is best 2,3,5 year peak? for a short time I guess Dougie was really dialed in but I usually use 5 years as a peak and it's hard to beat Feds from 92-96.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Shadows (Post 70347795)
I suppose I could agree with top 5. He was fantastic on both ends of the ice. The scene is a bit different than Gilmour though, in the sense that his dominance had a bit more "team boost" going for it. I do not mean just offensive numbers. Lidstrom finished 4th for the Hart and Datz also deserved selke votes, although I did think Zetz was better.

Ovechkin and Malkin both had seasons that tilted the ice a bit more than Zetz, and Thornton was a beast, carrying that Sharks team on his back(outscoring his nearest teammate by 75% is pretty remarkable)

Brodeur also had a stellar year. But him and Zetz could easily share the 5th spot.

Ill stand by Gilmour's best 3 seasons though. In 86-87, 5th for the Hart, but Behind Gretzky/Bourque/Luit/Lemieux. Hard to get above those guys during those seasons. Gretzky and Lemieux are obvious. Bourque scored 95 points over the next best teammate's 72, and was 9th in scoring overall. The Bruins GF vs GA with him on and off the ice was ridiculous. Liut was also playing just incredibly on a pretty forgettable team.

92-93 and 93-94 speak for themselves. He just took that team on his back and carried them. Definitely deserved his 2nd and 4th hart finishes.



That may be a different matter. Fedorov's best year IMO was better than Gilmour's(unless you add playoffs) by a little. Dougie was great, but Fedorov was even better defensively.

Fedorov bugs me because he did not give 100% every game in the regular season, but kind of redeems himself in the playoffs, where he always did.

I usually like to use best 5 consecutive years for peak but in your method I can see why one would choose Doug on those 3 years.

As for the best player in the world in 07-8 it's pretty hard to argue, when taking into account total play at both ends of the ice and regular season and playoffs that anyone not name Dats was better than Zetts.

silkyjohnson50 08-20-2013 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 (Post 70351901)
I think pretty much that Zetts had the best all around game in the world in 07-08 if one looks at both the regular season and playoffs and quality of play over that entire time.

Other guys might have been more flashy and maybe one could pick Dats over Zetts but not the other guys IMO



That's a tough call, what is best 2,3,5 year peak? for a short time I guess Dougie was really dialed in but I usually use 5 years as a peak and it's hard to beat Feds from 92-96.



I usually like to use best 5 consecutive years for peak but in your method I can see why one would choose Doug on those 3 years.

As for the best player in the world in 07-8 it's pretty hard to argue, when taking into account total play at both ends of the ice and regular season and playoffs that anyone not name Dats was better than Zetts.

When i suggest that Datsyuk and Zetterberg tilted the ice that year, I'm being modest.

Their line (with Holmstrom) finished 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in the league in shots for per 60 minutes at even strength (33.4-35.6 shots).

Additionally, Zetterberg and Datsyuk finished tied for 2nd in the NHL in shots against per 60 (19.8). Only Goc, who had a significantly lower quality of competition than them, had a lower shots against (18).

They were great puck possession players who spent most of their time in the offensive zone... And with Zetterberg often playing center, Datsyuk was able to play a little more aggressively which meant their transition defense and game didn't allow opposing lines to do much of anything. Not coincidently, that was the season where Datsyuk had an insane 144 takeaways.

Obviously they didn't not benefit from playing with each other, but the results from start to finish that year pretty much speak for themselves. They flat out dominated that year.

Ohashi_Jouzu 08-20-2013 02:42 AM

Gilmour, but this is one of those "clear" without necessarily being a "chasmic" divide in overall skill or "value" terms. The best of Dougie was quite literally franchise-on-shoulders stuff, though, and that's tipping the balance imo.

ozzie 08-20-2013 03:18 AM

Gilmour really benefits from his leaf days, those 93 and 94 runs were pretty epic for the city. Especially in 93 he really carried the team and always seemed to be on the ice.

Without his time with the leafs and just based on the Blues, Flames - I can see Zetterberg and himself about equal. That cup winning stacked Flames team is basically what Zetterberg was playing on for most of his career.

Gilmour's time with the leafs really puts him a head.

21 08-20-2013 04:16 AM

Toronto fans are huge homies, if Zetteberg was a Canadian playing for them he would be a hockey god.

Of course Zetterberg > Gilmour. :sarcasm:

BraveCanadian 08-20-2013 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozzie (Post 70352953)
Gilmour really benefits from his leaf days, those 93 and 94 runs were pretty epic for the city. Especially in 93 he really carried the team and always seemed to be on the ice.

Without his time with the leafs and just based on the Blues, Flames - I can see Zetterberg and himself about equal. That cup winning stacked Flames team is basically what Zetterberg was playing on for most of his career.

Gilmour's time with the leafs really puts him a head.

I think you're probably right.

During those couple of seasons Gilmour played as well as any mortal I've seen.

He was the best player in the world over that 92-94 span of time.

Sentinel 08-20-2013 10:05 AM

This is similar to Bossy vs. Ovechkin, in a "lone star" vs. "stacked team" sense. Yet in Bossy's case people are willing to overlook his HHOF teammates and put his scoring finishes and Cups over Ovechkin's Harts. In this case people give the "lone star" the edge.

I would call this one a draw. Zett's Smythe was great and those two Finals runs were epic, but Gilmore was indeed a franchise-defining player of Yzerman / Bourque caliber. My eye test says Gilmore.

Now Fedorov > Gilmore for sure. Gilmore > Waters though ;)

BraveCanadian 08-20-2013 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sentinel (Post 70356281)
Now Fedorov > Gilmore for sure.

Nope. Absolute peak is debatable and even if you give it to Fedorov he took way too much time off if we consider anything after their top couple of seasons.

Personally, I think they are really close, and even though Fedorov is one of the most purely talented players ever, I would take Gilmour every time if I was choosing between them because with Gilmour you know what you're going to get every night.

tony d 08-20-2013 10:47 AM

Gilmour. Watch his run in the 1993 playoffs for proof to how good Gilmour was.

seventieslord 08-20-2013 12:17 PM

number of known wings sympathizers and/or people with wings in their screen name voting for Zetterberg: 3 of 7

number of known wings sympathizers and/or people with wings in their screen name voting for Gilmour: 0 of 24

Plural 08-20-2013 01:06 PM

Zetterberg was great, but he was never as great as Killer. I vote Gilmour.

Plural 08-20-2013 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 70359931)
number of known wings sympathizers and/or people with wings in their screen name voting for Zetterberg: 3 of 7

number of known wings sympathizers and/or people with wings in their screen name voting for Gilmour: 0 of 24

The vote is 28-8, do we really need to point at biased votes? There will always be guys who vote for their team/favorite player. The difference is big enough, do we really need finger pointing?

seventieslord 08-20-2013 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TAnnala (Post 70361471)
The vote is 28-8, do we really need to point at biased votes? There will always be guys who vote for their team/favorite player. The difference is big enough, do we really need finger pointing?

I'm sorry that you consider that finger pointing. I was simply stating a couple of facts about the demographics involved in the voting.


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