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-   -   How would Marc Tardif have fared in the 1976 Canada Cup? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1490265)

dennilfloss 08-27-2013 04:41 PM

How would Marc Tardif have fared in the 1976 Canada Cup?
 
Scotty Bowman had named him to Team Canada but Tardif did not attend training camp due to the head injury he had suffered at the hands of Calgary's Rick Jodzio in the 1976 WHA playoffs.

Who do you think he might have played with had he not got the concussion? Would he have done well? I kinda picture him meshing well with Gilbert Perreault & Richard Martin. :)

cam042686 08-27-2013 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dennilfloss (Post 70564577)
Scotty Bowman had named him to Team Canada but Tardif did not attend training camp due to the head injury he had suffered at the hands of Calgary's Rick Jodzio in the 1976 WHA playoffs.

Who do you think he might have played with had he not got the concussion? Would he have done well? I kinda picture him meshing well with Gilbert Perreault & Richard Martin. :)

Tardif had played for Bowman in Montreal for 2 years, so they knew each other. He would have had an uphill battle to make the team as it was so deep and as a WHA player there was a bias I think against him. He really would have had to have had a great camp to make that squad.

I do believe he was good enough to do so and would have done well. Even though his point totals don't show it he played well in the 1974 Summit versus the Soviets. I talked about him quite a lot in my book "The Forgotten Summit." In later international games including the Nordiques trip to the 1977 Izvetsia tournament he played very well. So he could raise his game to play at the higher international level - unlike players like Ken Dryden and Guy Lafleur who never excelled at that level.

Craig Wallace

Canadiens1958 08-27-2013 09:02 PM

Marc Tardif
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dennilfloss (Post 70564577)
Scotty Bowman had named him to Team Canada but Tardif did not attend training camp due to the head injury he had suffered at the hands of Calgary's Rick Jodzio in the 1976 WHA playoffs.

Who do you think he might have played with had he not got the concussion? Would he have done well? I kinda picture him meshing well with Gilbert Perreault & Richard Martin. :)

Marc Tardif had played with Gilbert Perreault with the Junior Canadiens in the late 1960s. Tardif and Martin were LWS - would not work well.

thom 08-27-2013 09:14 PM

Lafleur was the 3rd leading scorer at 81 canada cup and was a point a game at 76 canada cup.What the hell are you talking about.As for Dryden who knows.Also at 1982 world championship Lafleur was knocked out and should not have played remaining games

Big Phil 08-27-2013 11:06 PM

Hard to see who Tardif replaces on that team. Bobby Hull, as the only WHA player who made the squad was a given, but let's look at the rest of the roster.

Clarke, Barber, Leach? Nope, that line would stay intact. He's not replacing the Broad Street Bullies' best players

Hull, Perreault, Dionne, Sittler, Lafleur, Esposito, P. Mahovlich all make it ahead of him. McDonald was a right winger, so he's safe from Tardif (who I assume would have made it as a LW). Gare is RW too, although he didn't play much.

The only players I didn't mention on that roster of forwards were Gainey, Martin and Shutt. All left wingers. That is the only chance for Tardif. I can't see either of them being taken off in favour of him though. Gainey has his role, Martin was a staple in playing with Perreault (although they didn't play together much in this tourny) and Shutt was fresh off a Stanley Cup and was Lafleur's winger in Montreal. He'd be in tough that's for sure. By 1976 other than Hull, almost all the best players in the world were back in the NHL and not the WHA.

double5son10 08-28-2013 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thom (Post 70572509)
Lafleur was the 3rd leading scorer at 81 canada cup and was a point a game at 76 canada cup.What the hell are you talking about.As for Dryden who knows.Also at 1982 world championship Lafleur was knocked out and should not have played remaining games

Agreed. This notion that neither of them could raise their games against the Russians is pure fiction, and a really tired trope--see Dryden in game 6 in '72 Summit, or game 1 of the Challenge Cup, and yes, Lafleur was just fine against the Russians. Check him out against CSKA on New Year's '79 when he's far and away the best player on the ice for either team.

VMBM 08-28-2013 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thom (Post 70572509)
Lafleur was the 3rd leading scorer at 81 canada cup and was a point a game at 76 canada cup.What the hell are you talking about.As for Dryden who knows.Also at 1982 world championship Lafleur was knocked out and should not have played remaining games

But even though he was arguably the best forward in the world at the time, he wasn't quite the key forward on the 1976 Team Canada, and was only ALMOST a point a game player (6 pts in 7 games). Maybe it was hard to shine on that team, but Perreault, Orr, Potvin and Vachon were above the rest in my opinion.

In the 1981 CC, well, he wasn't very good in the final (e.g. the embarrasing defensive blunder vs. Krutov), and fair or not, that's what people remember. Overall, he was probably good. His line with Dionne and Gretzky did not apparently work as well as the one with Perreault and Gretzky.

Lafleur played in the 1981 World Championships and indeed, was knocked cold (and injured?) in the game versus the Netherlands, of all countries.

tony d 08-28-2013 09:31 AM

Yeah, I could see Tardif making that team as an extra player. Yeah he was from the WHA but he still put up some impressive numbers.

dennilfloss 08-28-2013 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony d (Post 70583247)
Yeah, I could see Tardif making that team as an extra player. Yeah he was from the WHA but he still put up some impressive numbers.

In 75-76, Tardif outscored Hull in the WHA by quite a margin IIRC.

Big Phil 08-28-2013 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VMBM (Post 70580227)
But even though he was arguably the best forward in the world at the time, he wasn't quite the key forward on the 1976 Team Canada, and was only ALMOST a point a game player (6 pts in 7 games). Maybe it was hard to shine on that team, but Perreault, Orr, Potvin and Vachon were above the rest in my opinion.

In the 1981 CC, well, he wasn't very good in the final (e.g. the embarrasing defensive blunder vs. Krutov), and fair or not, that's what people remember. Overall, he was probably good. His line with Dionne and Gretzky did not apparently work as well as the one with Perreault and Gretzky.

Lafleur played in the 1981 World Championships and indeed, was knocked cold (and injured?) in the game versus the Netherlands, of all countries.

Probably just hard to shine on that team. Bobby Clarke, arguably the best forward in the world in 1976 didn't stand out either. It was a 7 game tournament and two defensemen (Orr and Potvin) were the leading scorers. As mentioned, Perreault certainly stood out, and Lafleur did have his moments but that was a really deep team. Lafleur is the type of player who had the style of play (like Perreault but perhaps even faster) that would thrive against the Russians.

double5son10 08-28-2013 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VMBM (Post 70580227)
But even though he was arguably the best forward in the world at the time, he wasn't quite the key forward on the 1976 Team Canada, and was only ALMOST a point a game player (6 pts in 7 games). Maybe it was hard to shine on that team, but Perreault, Orr, Potvin and Vachon were above the rest in my opinion.

In the 1981 CC, well, he wasn't very good in the final (e.g. the embarrasing defensive blunder vs. Krutov), and fair or not, that's what people remember. Overall, he was probably good. His line with Dionne and Gretzky did not apparently work as well as the one with Perreault and Gretzky.

Lafleur played in the 1981 World Championships and indeed, was knocked cold (and injured?) in the game versus the Netherlands, of all countries.

Who was good for Canada in that final? One of the truly atrocious performances on the international stage by any team, ever. That Krutov goal was that game in a nutshell--Gretzky's blind pass in to the middle that sent Krutov away, Lafleur's flamingo act, Potvin coasting back on defense and Liut giving up the goal from the top of the circle. Stupid, lazy, indifferent play and lousy goaltending against the Soviets and Team Canada got what they deserved.

BadgerBruce 08-28-2013 04:13 PM

I'm inclined to believe that a healthy Tardif could have been a legitimate contributor to the 1976 CC team.

Bowman was a master at shuffling lines and finding combinations that worked, if only for a short time. Player ego or reputation mattered little to him; for instance, by the end of the series Esposito's ice time was noticeably reduced (replaced by Perreault on the Hull line), and lots of players (Leach, Clarke, Mcdonald, Gainey, Martin, Shutt, Gare) did not dress for all 7 games, some because of injury, some because of performance, and some because Bowman wanted to experiment with different lineups to find chemistry.

Also, keep in mind that Clarke was not 100% healthy in this series (Achilles), and that both Barber and Leach performed below expectations. Left winger Rick Martin suited up for just 4 games. Thus, I suspect Bowman would have given a healthy Tardif a shot, but this was one stacked roster.

Big Phil 08-28-2013 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by double5son10 (Post 70591059)
Who was good for Canada in that final? One of the truly atrocious performances on the international stage by any team, ever. That Krutov goal was that game in a nutshell--Gretzky's blind pass in to the middle that sent Krutov away, Lafleur's flamingo act, Potvin coasting back on defense and Liut giving up the goal from the top of the circle. Stupid, lazy, indifferent play and lousy goaltending against the Soviets and Team Canada got what they deserved.

Hard to believe, but Clark Gillies scored the lone goal for Canada in that 8-1 rout. Maybe he was one of the few you could say didn't play "poor".

VanIslander 08-28-2013 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cam042686 (Post 70571573)
I talked about him quite a lot in my book "The Forgotten Summit."

Interesting! What company is the publisher of your book?

Killion 08-28-2013 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VanIslander (Post 70601727)
Interesting! What company is the publisher of your book?

Here you go...http://www.amazon.com/Forgotten-Summ...rgotten+summit

VMBM 08-29-2013 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Phil (Post 70589089)
Probably just hard to shine on that team. Bobby Clarke, arguably the best forward in the world in 1976 didn't stand out either. It was a 7 game tournament and two defensemen (Orr and Potvin) were the leading scorers. As mentioned, Perreault certainly stood out, and Lafleur did have his moments but that was a really deep team. Lafleur is the type of player who had the style of play (like Perreault but perhaps even faster) that would thrive against the Russians.

I think that in the fall of '76, Lafleur was at least very close to being the best forward in the world and Clarke was past his peak a bit. Clarke's numbers weren't great in the tournament (were they ever internationally?), but in the key games like the must-not-lose round robin game vs. USSR and the 2nd final, I think he was actually one of the better players.
Then again, Lafleur - instead of Sittler - could have been 'the hero' of the 2nd final. He scored in the OT, but the goal was disallowed.

Overall, IMO Lafleur wasn't bad against the Russians or anything like that, but I don't think he was great either. Perreault was simply better, and I believe the Russians thought so too. The sample size is obviously not huge.

BadgerBruce 08-29-2013 07:45 AM

Over the 7 Team Canada games, the team scored 33 goals. Lafleur scored his first and only goal of the series in game 6 (the first game of the best-of-3 final), the fourth tally in a 6-0 dismantling of the Czechs. The play-by-play men make quite a big deal about this goal, and one can absolutely understand why: the NHL leading goal scorer and reigning Art Ross winner, the embodiment of "firepower," had not yet scored a single goal. Much more had been expected of him on the eve of the series.

Yet, having fairly recently watched all the games again on dvd, I must say that Lafleur played very well and simply could not bury his scoring opportunities. His speed absolutely stretched the defence of every opponent and opened the middle of the ice, and his commitment to backchecking, which I hadn't really expected, was almost ferocious (as was Bobby Hull's, which also surprised me).

Overall, Lafleur the goal scorer did what true pros are supposed to do when experiencing a drought: re-commit to defence, move the puck to linemates, do all of the little things right, and remain confident that the goal scoring drought will eventually end.

In other words, deal with adversity. Bowman never cut his ice time and kept rolling him out there, and Lafleur kept on working hard. Watch the games again if you have them recorded and I think you'll see what I mean. Maybe he did pot just 1 of 33 goals, but the totality of his contribution to the team greatly exceeds this lone stat.

Canadiens1958 08-29-2013 08:29 AM

The Big 5
 
1976 Team Canadian was driven by the Big 5 on defence - Bobby Orr, Denis Potvin, Guy Lapointe, Larry Robinson, Serge Savard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Canada_Cup_rosters

Marc Tardif's hockey background included playing with puck moving defensemen at all levels.

He would have fit like Richard Martin did but like Richard Martin his ice time would have suffered due to a lack of positional versatility, LW only.

Hardyvan123 08-29-2013 09:04 AM

Frankly Tardif was just as good as Martin or Shutt in 76 IMO or even Leach, who really had a spotty career outside of playing with Clarke.

LeBlondeDemon10 08-29-2013 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadgerBruce (Post 70614035)
Over the 7 Team Canada games, the team scored 33 goals. Lafleur scored his first and only goal of the series in game 6 (the first game of the best-of-3 final), the fourth tally in a 6-0 dismantling of the Czechs. The play-by-play men make quite a big deal about this goal, and one can absolutely understand why: the NHL leading goal scorer and reigning Art Ross winner, the embodiment of "firepower," had not yet scored a single goal. Much more had been expected of him on the eve of the series.

Yet, having fairly recently watched all the games again on dvd, I must say that Lafleur played very well and simply could not bury his scoring opportunities. His speed absolutely stretched the defence of every opponent and opened the middle of the ice, and his commitment to backchecking, which I hadn't really expected, was almost ferocious (as was Bobby Hull's, which also surprised me).

Overall, Lafleur the goal scorer did what true pros are supposed to do when experiencing a drought: re-commit to defence, move the puck to linemates, do all of the little things right, and remain confident that the goal scoring drought will eventually end.

In other words, deal with adversity. Bowman never cut his ice time and kept rolling him out there, and Lafleur kept on working hard. Watch the games again if you have them recorded and I think you'll see what I mean. Maybe he did pot just 1 of 33 goals, but the totality of his contribution to the team greatly exceeds this lone stat.

Good points. Even in 1981, an aging and out of shape (he showed up to Habs camp in September out of shape) Lafleur was the best player on the ice for many of the games. Particularly in the round robin game against the Russians, he was dynamic. He carried the puck more than in 1976 (I attribute this to a lack of confidence in his first international competition and the numerous other players who carried the puck like Orr, who he was in awe of) and passed it extremely well meshing with Gretzky and Perreault. Even while playing out of shape, he was the best skater on the ice. After he did get into shape for the 81-82 season he had a very good year scoring 84 points in 66 games. Pretty good for a guy who was really a shadow of his former self.

cam042686 08-29-2013 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VMBM (Post 70611437)
I think that in the fall of '76, Lafleur was at least very close to being the best forward in the world and Clarke was past his peak a bit. Clarke's numbers weren't great in the tournament (were they ever internationally?), but in the key games like the must-not-lose round robin game vs. USSR and the 2nd final, I think he was actually one of the better players.
Then again, Lafleur - instead of Sittler - could have been 'the hero' of the 2nd final. He scored in the OT, but the goal was disallowed.

Overall, IMO Lafleur wasn't bad against the Russians or anything like that, but I don't think he was great either. Perreault was simply better, and I believe the Russians thought so too. The sample size is obviously not huge.

I said that about Lafleur, not because he was a total "dog" like Frank Mahovlich was against the Soviets in 1972 and 1974. It was just you expected more. He was never awful like Mahovlich was - but he was never great like Phil Esposito, Bobby Hull, Ralph Backstrom, etc were against the Soviets. He was okay and at times very good. But for someone of his stature - didn't we expect a performance like Wayne Gretzky gave in Game 2 of the 1987 Canada Cup, or Backstrom in Game 7 of the 1974 Summit, or Esposito through most of the 72 Summit, as well as future games against the Soviets?

As for Dryden - well he got pasted by the Soviets in 1969, (he gave up 9 goals playing for the Nats against the Soviets) and the first 2 games of the 72 Summit. He was a fumbling, bumbling mess. He was very good in Game 6 , and well in Game 8 I guess we can say Canada survived him. (Remember Phil Esposito saved a 6th goal from going in during the 2nd period.) He was horrible in the 1975 New Years Game - my god he stunk! He played okay splitting a game against a weak Spartak team in 1977-78. He did play well in Game 1 of the Challenge Cup and had a weak game in Game 2.

So in 9 games versus the Soviets he was horrible in 4 of them (1969, Games 1, 4 of 72 and 1975 New Years Eve), below average in one (Game 2 of Challenge Cup), okay in 2 (Game 8 of 72 and Spartak),and played well in 2 (Game 6 of 72 and Game 1 of Challenge Cup.) Now is that a stellar record of a goalie who raised his game to a higher level? Two good games out of 9?

To be fair Ken Dryden didn't tend to have great success against team who had great lateral speed - who could really get him going "back and forth." The early 70's Rangers and the Sabres of the mid 70's had success against him and of course the Soviets.

Craig Wallace

cam042686 08-29-2013 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killion (Post 70604983)

Hey thanks for the "plug" for my book!

Craig Wallace!

VMBM 08-30-2013 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cam042686 (Post 70634651)
He did play well in Game 1 of the Challenge Cup and had a weak game in Game 2.

Bolded. Have to disagree with that somewhat. That game was heavily dominated by the Soviets (shots: USSR 31, NHL 16). Yes, Dryden let in a couple of weak ones (both Kapustin goals), but he also made some pretty big saves - in a game where he didn't get much help from his team. And no matter how weak you think he was, he actually performed better than Tretiak, who let in 4 goals when facing only 16 shots; even the Tretiak fans Danny Gallivan and Dick Irvin Jr. were turning against him ("not the Tretiak we've seen before"), and Tikhonov favoured an inexperienced goalie (at the top level) like Myshkin in the deciding game.

BrimStone64 08-30-2013 10:03 AM

Column bringing back a lot of fond memories. '76 Canada Cup was great hockey. As a die hard Habs fan, 1976 was their greatest team ever also. Hockey occupied tremendous amount of my time in this era.

Big Phil 08-30-2013 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VMBM (Post 70611437)
I think that in the fall of '76, Lafleur was at least very close to being the best forward in the world and Clarke was past his peak a bit. Clarke's numbers weren't great in the tournament (were they ever internationally?), but in the key games like the must-not-lose round robin game vs. USSR and the 2nd final, I think he was actually one of the better players.
Then again, Lafleur - instead of Sittler - could have been 'the hero' of the 2nd final. He scored in the OT, but the goal was disallowed.

Overall, IMO Lafleur wasn't bad against the Russians or anything like that, but I don't think he was great either. Perreault was simply better, and I believe the Russians thought so too. The sample size is obviously not huge.

I think its fair to also point out that he had 5 assists in that tournament. 6 points in 7 games isn't Lafleur-like but it was adequate. Yes I do know about him nearly being the hero in overtime. If not for the net coming off, that puck was well on its way home. Then again Guy Lapointe was a split second away from being the hero too. Two goals got called off in overtime for Canada.


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