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-   -   What was the downfall of the PCHA? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1491769)

Ziostilon 08-30-2013 11:56 PM

What was the downfall of the PCHA?
 
Why do you think it didn't hold up like the National Hockey Association which in turn became the NHL

Did it have anything to do with the larger population base in the east coast

the edler 08-31-2013 03:59 AM

NHA had more larger cities to rely on like Montreal, Quebec, Toronto, Ottawa. PCHA, in Canada, only had Vancouver and Victoria and had to expand and relocate into the US in Seattle, Portland and even Spokane. Culture and money probably also played part.

Canadiens1958 08-31-2013 05:49 AM

PCHA Demise
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by the edler (Post 70671855)
NHA had more larger cities to rely on like Montreal, Quebec, Toronto, Ottawa. PCHA, in Canada, only had Vancouver and Victoria and had to expand and relocate into the US in Seattle, Portland and even Spokane. Culture and money probably also played part.

Articles in post #110 of the following link are very revealing:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=110

Killion 08-31-2013 08:52 AM

Well, the Patricks had invested much of the family fortune in building indoor rinks with artificial ice in Vancouver & Victoria, the league unlike the NHA holding player contracts, everything centralized starting with 3 teams, Vancouver, New Westminster & Victoria. New West playing out of Vancouver its first season at least while outside interests built the arena. They essentially raided the NHA for players, offering better pay, many stars leaving the NHA & other leagues to sign up. The PCHA was the first Canadian professional league to expand to the US with Portland & Seattle; also the first to build farm systems amongst other innovations (numbers on players jerseys, the addition of the Blue Lines, Goal Crease etc).

In the early 20's as well the WCHL started up (teams independently owned - Moose Jaw, Saskatoon etc), on par with the PCHL & NHA, the winners of the PCHA/WCHL playoffs then challenging the NHA Champions for the Stanley Cup. Player salaries & costs, lack of substantial gate revenues essentially killed the league, the Patricks selling the Victoria Cougars players lock stock & barrel to Detroit who became the Detroit Cougars, eventually bought by Big Jim Norris & re-named the Red Wings; Vancouver to Chicago. The WHL folded, became the Prairie Hockey League, playing against the AHA (top tier minor pro) of which Chicago had a team called the Shamrocks, and was a bain to the NHL in that market as the Blackhawks had just started up, Norris losing out in the ownership sweepstakes there, buying the Shamrocks, competing with the NHL. He was essentially "bought off". Folded the Shamrocks, bought the Cougars which had gone into receivership & were moribund until he revived them... The Patricks of course went on to Coaching & Management with the NHL.

The AHA meanwhile morphed into the AHL, causing no end of grief to the NHL in the early 30's as they were establishing themselves in choice markets & competing for players with both the IHL (then the NHL top farm system) & the NHL. Frank Calder, then NHL President in fact branded it an "outlaw league" and players signing with any of their clubs wouldnt be welcomed to the NHL nor back into the IHL. All out war.

Ziostilon 08-31-2013 03:47 PM

Let me see if i got this right:

There just wasn't the appetite for hockey in cities like Vancouver, New West, Victoria, Seattle etc.

At least not enough to keep the club afloat.

Some of the articles also point to the lack of influx of youth talent into the PCHA. (whether it was a financial issue or lack of interest from the youth at that specific time) However, Killion did mention the advent of farm systems by the Patricks.

My question is, even if the league folded, why did the clubs have to either be sold off or get folded along with the league.
Could they not have turned ownership to the communities and have it be member owned. They would have to play at a much lower tier league because of the financial situations, but this would still keep the club alive

the edler 08-31-2013 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killion (Post 70673757)
They essentially raided the NHA for players, offering better pay

Best example probably when Seattle Metropolitans bought over a whole core of five players – Hap Holmes, Frank Foyston, Cully Wilson, Jack Walker and Ed Carpenter – from Toronto Blueshirts for the 1915–16 season and won the cup in 1917. Four of those players [Holmes, Foyston, Wilson, Walker] had already won the cup in 1914 with the Blueshirts and three of them [Holmes, Foyston, Walker] would win again with Victoria Cougars in 1925.

Sanf 08-31-2013 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziostilon (Post 70683303)
Let me see if i got this right:

There just wasn't the appetite for hockey in cities like Vancouver, New West, Victoria, Seattle etc.

At least not enough to keep the club afloat.

Some of the articles also point to the lack of influx of youth talent into the PCHA. (whether it was a financial issue or lack of interest from the youth at that specific time) However, Killion did mention the advent of farm systems by the Patricks.

My question is, even if the league folded, why did the clubs have to either be sold off or get folded along with the league.
Could they not have turned ownership to the communities and have it be member owned. They would have to play at a much lower tier league because of the financial situations, but this would still keep the club alive

Boundary League mentioned in the first article was the farm league of PCHA (from 1913?). What I have found from the old articles it seems to be great idea from Patricks, but the timing was just not the right. WWI affected on that I guess and they didnīt get the player supply from there. Other than that I canīt help but Iīm also intrested on the subject.

Killion 08-31-2013 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziostilon (Post 70683303)
Let me see if i got this right:

There just wasn't the appetite for hockey in cities like Vancouver, New West, Victoria, Seattle etc.

At least not enough to keep the club afloat.

Some of the articles also point to the lack of influx of youth talent into the PCHA. (whether it was a financial issue or lack of interest from the youth at that specific time) However, Killion did mention the advent of farm systems by the Patricks.

My question is, even if the league folded, why did the clubs have to either be sold off or get folded along with the league.
Could they not have turned ownership to the communities and have it be member owned. They would have to play at a much lower tier league because of the financial situations, but this would still keep the club alive

I dont know that community ownership was ever even explored Ziostilon. What I do know is that Patricks father was a Lumber Baron of sorts & had accumulated a fair amount of wealth, a large of portion of which went to building the arenas in Vancouver (10,500) and Victoria at no small cost. New Westminster, Seattle & Portland following suit.

Victoria actually moved, left the market for awhile and then returned to Victoria as the Cougars. So ya, they were facing problems at the gate alright combined with stiffening competition from the NHL for top tier talent. Ive tried to find out just exactly what "farm system" these guys actually had as referenced in several sources, but damned if I can beyond the Boundary League mentioned above, WW1 stunting its development. Im guessing additionally sponsorships of junior & senior, elite amateur clubs throughout western Canada.

By 1924 with NHL expansion in the States, they couldnt compete dollar wise for players, and down to just 3 teams, with Seattle folding that year, Portland & Victoria merging with the WCHL which was then re-named the Western Hockey League, which only lasted a couple of years. The Patricks selling players to the NHL or in the case of Portland the entire team to Chicago, Victoria to Detroit. A not uncommon practice back in the day, really through every era, be it Ballard accepting & then reneging on a million bucks for Frank Mahovlich or Peter Pocklington essentially selling Wayne Gretzy to McNall in LA.

Victoria did win the Stanley Cup in 1925 I think it was as members of the WHL, and the players, Coaches, certainly the Patricks when the league folded & most joining the NHL were the creme de la creme of the NHL for several years through the 30's. Extremely influential. I dont how much money they made or lost on there basically 15yr venture, but the cost to build the rink in Vancouver alone exceeded $100,000 - a huge sum back then. They paid top dollar in raiding NHA rosters for years yet Ive seen mention that all they got Victoria when they sold the name & player contracts to the NHL in Detroit was $25,000 - $15,000 for the Rosebuds to Chicago. Both amounts seem paltry when one considers what they mustve poured into the league huh?

At anyrate, the WHL morphed into the Prairie Hockey League, while on the westcoast a decent brand of minor pro was established through the 30's & indeed right on through the 60's. Popular teams & players as your no doubt aware.


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