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-   -   Does anyone feel like the Oilers farm system needs to be addressed (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1494447)

SupremeTeam16 09-06-2013 06:28 PM

Does anyone feel like the Oilers farm system needs to be addressed
 
It seems like the Oil Barons are a team built to win in the AHL rather then develop and graduate prospects. I know we've immediately graduated some of our recent high end prospects to the NHL but I for one would like to see some of our young players gettin a spot on the AHL instead of the ECHL or wherever else. I think we have had alot of guys in the past who are AHL vets or who's time to make an impression is at its end and I for one would rather see some of our younger prospects getting solid minutes in the AHL against tougher competition, even if it means the team isn't going deep into the playoffs year after year. After all Calder cups don't matter Stanley cups do.

I think this is especially important with Mac-t's buck shot approach to drafting this year and some of his free agent signings. You never know when a guy, who is 20-21-22, who might of been passed over a few drafts or taken in a late round or is a undrafted FA signing, might turn the page and become a great hockey player kinda like Martin St louis did. I'm not saying we're going to find a guy like that but our focus right now should be big bodied players who aren't terrifically skilled but can offer a different dimension to the game, and generally speaking bigger guys usually don't find their hands and legs until their mid twenties. I think there are lots of guys out there who could be some real gems and we need to make some space in our farm system. I know we already have alot of guys who fit the big bodied bottom 6 profile in our system but in my eyes competition is key.

40oz 09-06-2013 06:56 PM

I don't think we have the sample size to judge this, the Barons have only been around since the 10-11 season, and one could easily lay the blame on scouting for the talent that's been sent there.

That being said we need to see results.

2Sedins0Cups 09-06-2013 07:05 PM

Hard to say this is really true because Grand Rapids won it all last year and they graduate players to the NHL all the time. The Marlies were strong the year before that and they've been developing some solid players for the Laughs as well. There is a fine line, but we just seem to be either unlucky with our last group of prospects or they busted. Gotta remember anything past the second round, only about 12% of picks make it. One player per draft year (after the 2nd round) is above average if you have 5 or 6 picks past the 2nd round. Keep that in mind.

Mozesmadness 09-06-2013 07:08 PM

We need to find a balance between developing prospects while doing that creating a winning culture at each level, Oil Kings, Condors, and Barons all have that.

2Sedins0Cups 09-06-2013 07:11 PM

That being said though, I think you are completely right about giving them more ice time. Can't develop without responsibility and winning shouldn't be the top priority, development should.

bozwell 09-06-2013 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 40oz (Post 70862055)
I don't think we have the sample size to judge this, the Barons have only been around since the 10-11 season, and one could easily lay the blame on scouting for the talent that's been sent there.

That being said we need to see results.

in the last ten years how many none first rounders drafted by the oilers players over 80 games in their career?

Peckham 160 games drafted 2006
Reddoxx 100 games drafted in 2004

2003 should have been a gold mind
JFJ 166
Stortini 257
Brodziuk 467
troy brodie 107 games played

so the oilers have produced only 6 players in ten years who were not drafted in the first round and only Brodziuk is any good

Gone 09-06-2013 07:16 PM

No, we need an amateur scouting staff that can actually judge talent beyond picks 1-2-3; and we need a professional scouting staff .... well, mÍme chose. For xxxx sakes, we haven't had a decent xxxxxxxx scout in 10 years. MOD

Seedling 09-06-2013 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gone (Post 70862541)
No, we need an amateur scouting staff that can actually judge talent beyond picks 1-2-3; and we need a professional scouting staff .... well, mÍme chose. For xxxx sakes, we haven't had a decent xxxxxxxx scout in 10 years. In Stu we booze.

This.

40oz 09-06-2013 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bozwell (Post 70862417)
in the last ten years how many none first rounders drafted by the oilers players over 80 games in their career?

Peckham 160 games drafted 2006
Reddoxx 100 games drafted in 2004

2003 should have been a gold mind
JFJ 166
Stortini 257
Brodziuk 467
troy brodie 107 games played

so the oilers have produced only 6 players in ten years who were not drafted in the first round and only Brodziuk is any good

Some of those guys came from an era where the Oilers never had a farm team.
They've cleary saw the problems with the prospects playing in Wilkes barre-Scraton / Springfield. Which is why a few years back they basically started their own franchise (with Prodigal Hockey) from the ground up in OKC. I'm sure there has been a ton of changes, and 3 years in they've built a very good AHL team. Which is impressive in it's own rights, even if it may not benefit the Oiler lineup. I just don't think we can use those old examples since we know the majority of the people "in the system" helping bring these players along aren't even around anymore.

ManofSteel55 09-06-2013 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 40oz (Post 70862055)
I don't think we have the sample size to judge this, the Barons have only been around since the 10-11 season, and one could easily lay the blame on scouting for the talent that's been sent there.

That being said we need to see results.

This. The fact is that we only recently had any decent enough prospects on this team in the first place. Look at our d-men, they got pivotal roles last year because they earned them. Guys like Hamilton and Pitlick shouldn't be gifted ice time because we drafted them when other guys have played better. Our prospects need to know that they must earn their ice time.

Usual_Suspect 09-06-2013 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bozwell (Post 70862417)
in the last ten years how many none first rounders drafted by the oilers players over 80 games in their career?

Peckham 160 games drafted 2006
Reddoxx 100 games drafted in 2004

2003 should have been a gold mind
JFJ 166
Stortini 257
Brodziuk 467
troy brodie 107 games played

so the oilers have produced only 6 players in ten years who were not drafted in the first round and only Brodziuk is any good

You missed a big one - Petry 156gp. I'd say he's pretty good.

Plus Colin Mcdonald, Lander, and Omark are all going to hit 80 this year.

Everyone's favorite team to hold up as drafting successfully, Detroit, have 7 players that meet your criteria. The exact same as Edmonton does.

Teams that meet your criteria with 7 or less:
Detroit has 7
Vancouver has 4
Dallas has 7
Philly has 5
Phoenix has 5
Ottawa has 5
Carolina has 4
Washington has 4
Toronto has 7
Anaheim has 7
Florida has 3
Tampa has 7
Calgary has 6
NYI has 7
Atlanta/Wpg has 2
LA has 7
Minnesota has 6
NJ has 6

Your criteria pretty much proves the opposite of your point.

thadd 09-06-2013 09:17 PM

Our farm system is still a joke because our farm team doesn't teach the players to play the style of play that we play in the NHL. That's an impossible feat because we change coaches every year. Until we hold onto one coach in the NHL for 3+ years, I don't see this happening. Each coach that comes in is going to have their own style and it'll make players in the farm team have to adjust their game to be able to prepare to play effectively in Edmonton's system.

thalegion 09-06-2013 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thadd (Post 70865569)
Our farm system is still a joke because our farm team doesn't teach the players to play the style of play that we play in the NHL. That's an impossible feat because we change coaches every year. Until we hold onto one coach in the NHL for 3+ years, I don't see this happening. Each coach that comes in is going to have their own style and it'll make players in the farm team have to adjust their game to be able to prepare to play effectively in Edmonton's system.

That's all being changed this season though as per Mac t

GreatKeith 09-06-2013 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thadd (Post 70865569)
Our farm system is still a joke because our farm team doesn't teach the players to play the style of play that we play in the NHL. That's an impossible feat because we change coaches every year. Until we hold onto one coach in the NHL for 3+ years, I don't see this happening. Each coach that comes in is going to have their own style and it'll make players in the farm team have to adjust their game to be able to prepare to play effectively in Edmonton's system.

Well they were probably trying to win down there, I'd hope.:laugh:

Philly85 09-06-2013 10:31 PM

the scouting sucks. to be fair though it takes some of these later round picks several years to actually pan out, if they ever do at all. But yes, they're still paying now for the lack of offensive and solid role player depth, for the past 7 years of overall mediocre to below average drafting. It's going to take another 3-4-5 years until we see actual payoff of quality fill in players... if it happens at all. Personally I like to just think their scouting sucks :) , yes that includes Stu Mac.

bozwell 09-06-2013 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usual_Suspect (Post 70864297)
You missed a big one - Petry 156gp. I'd say he's pretty good.

Plus Colin Mcdonald, Lander, and Omark are all going to hit 80 this year.

Everyone's favorite team to hold up as drafting successfully, Detroit, have 7 players that meet your criteria. The exact same as Edmonton does.

Teams that meet your criteria with 7 or less:
Detroit has 7
Vancouver has 4
Dallas has 7
Philly has 5
Phoenix has 5
Ottawa has 5
Carolina has 4
Washington has 4
Toronto has 7
Anaheim has 7
Florida has 3
Tampa has 7
Calgary has 6
NYI has 7
Atlanta/Wpg has 2
LA has 7
Minnesota has 6
NJ has 6

Your criteria pretty much proves the opposite of your point.

go back and add up the pts

Joey Moss 09-06-2013 10:38 PM

What we need is a coach in OKC who plays a similar system to Eakins so the transition is easier for our prospects. Ottawa does this and you see how it's worked out for them. I do agree though, it seems like Todd Nelson is so much more focused on winning then working with the young guys. The Barons have relied on their veterans heavily for success. Look at Grand Rapids this year. Tomas Tatar was playoff MVP and he's one of Detroit's top prospects. Robin Lehner has been huge in Bingamton's success recently. For us it's been guys like Giroux, Arcobello (more of an AHL'er than a prospect), Danis etc..

Usual_Suspect 09-06-2013 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bozwell (Post 70867709)
go back and add up the pts

LMAO. You said nothing about pts. You were trying to prove a point based on games played. You're proven wrong so you change your argument as if it's what you meant all along...Shocker

SupremeTeam16 09-06-2013 11:46 PM

I agree the scouting of this team is awful. Stu and the boys need to start getting out there and identifying the type of player depth we need and buulding it whether it's through the draft or Europe and Russia or hidden gems in FA.

I know OKC is a new system but like other posters stated the farm team needs to be built like the Big club. Hopefully this year Mac can get everyone on the same page and some of our promising young guys can get some pro hockey minutes.

And how does it work for some of our younger players like Khaira and marco roy? The team has to decide whether they play in chl or ahl at the beginning of the year and if they play in the AHL does it use a year of their deal?

skorf 09-06-2013 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bozwell (Post 70862417)
in the last ten years how many none first rounders drafted by the oilers players over 80 games in their career?

Peckham 160 games drafted 2006
Reddoxx 100 games drafted in 2004

2003 should have been a gold mind
JFJ 166
Stortini 257
Brodziuk 467
troy brodie 107 games played

so the oilers have produced only 6 players in ten years who were not drafted in the first round and only Brodziuk is any good

to be fair, the last 3-4 years we've done a decent job... we still have high hopes for some of our later picks...

and last 10 years means really you're looking at a 6 year window... since later picks if they do make the NHL usually take at least 3-4 years to make it, so it isn't a huge sample of players.

Seedling 09-06-2013 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thadd (Post 70865569)
Our farm system is still a joke because our farm team doesn't teach the players to play the style of play that we play in the NHL. That's an impossible feat because we change coaches every year. Until we hold onto one coach in the NHL for 3+ years, I don't see this happening. Each coach that comes in is going to have their own style and it'll make players in the farm team have to adjust their game to be able to prepare to play effectively in Edmonton's system.

This is what I see as well. Good organizations that seem to always in the playoffs have very entrenched styles that are played at all levels of the club so the players know the system when they get the call.

Teams I would say that are excellent at this are Ottawa, Detroit, New Jersey, Anaheim, Boston, Nashville and Minnie. Say what you will about those teams, but they all have a style that the club endoctrinates their players into from day one. I would say they always seem to have adequate players in their system to address their needs. That is what we are lacking IMHO.

skorf 09-07-2013 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SupremeTeam16 (Post 70861169)
I think this is especially important with Mac-t's buck shot approach to drafting this year and some of his free agent signings. You never know when a guy, who is 20-21-22, who might of been passed over a few drafts or taken in a late round or is a undrafted FA signing, might turn the page and become a great hockey player kinda like Martin St louis did. I'm not saying we're going to find a guy like that but our focus right now should be big bodied players who aren't terrifically skilled but can offer a different dimension to the game, and generally speaking bigger guys usually don't find their hands and legs until their mid twenties. I think there are lots of guys out there who could be some real gems and we need to make some space in our farm system. I know we already have alot of guys who fit the big bodied bottom 6 profile in our system but in my eyes competition is key.

we are giving guys like that a try in OKC... Pitlick, Martindale, Hamilton, and we have guys like Yakimov and Slepyshev now in the KHL. Khaira will be in the AHL this year as well. How many big bodied bottom 6 guys would you want to compete? And really the Oilers as an organization have done an adequate job drafting and they are constantly on the lookout for players, we've brought in a few KHL guys and some NCAA guys as well... you can't ask for much more then that

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2sedins0cups
That being said though, I think you are completely right about giving them more ice time. Can't develop without responsibility and winning shouldn't be the top priority, development should.

Well if we're trying to develop the big bodied players as 3rd line, responsible defensive players... they shouldn't be getting big PP minutes and first line minutes. That's not what their role with the Oilers will be. Would it really do Pitlick or Hamilton any benefit to play first line minutes and be relied upon to score? And then their only chance to make the Oilers really is as a 3rd line type of player? I'd rather see them playing third line minutes myself and be relied upon to play solid defensive hockey, matchup against other teams top lines, and kill penalties.
And Rajala, Omark, Lander, and even Arcobello could all develop into NHL guys still (guys who play major minutes in the top 6 for OKC), really Miller will get minutes there as well this year and he could too. If those guys make the Oilers it will likely be as a top 6 type of guy, so might as well play them top 6 minutes.

Plus like someone else said, you have to earn minutes... nothing worse then gifting a prospect minutes that he does not earn. Look at how well our defense prospects have developed, and they've earned their minutes.

Oscar Acosta 09-07-2013 12:14 AM

What bothers me as an Oilers fan is that they spend years making the offense prospects jam packed, and then focus on defense. There was a time as an Oilers fan we thought we had the best defense in the league..

It's not one or the other. Hall, Yakupov, Eberle, Nugent-Hopkins are NHL ready now. The defense isn't close. In 5 years when they are, the Oilers will have a great defense, no offense prospects.. and the cycle continues.

2Sedins0Cups 09-07-2013 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SupremeTeam16 (Post 70869495)
I agree the scouting of this team is awful. Stu and the boys need to start getting out there and identifying the type of player depth we need and buulding it whether it's through the draft or Europe and Russia or hidden gems in FA.

I know OKC is a new system but like other posters stated the farm team needs to be built like the Big club. Hopefully this year Mac can get everyone on the same page and some of our promising young guys can get some pro hockey minutes.

And how does it work for some of our younger players like Khaira and marco roy? The team has to decide whether they play in chl or ahl at the beginning of the year and if they play in the AHL does it use a year of their deal?

I think they have to be over 20 years old or have 4 years of junior under their belts before they can go pro in the AHL. Both Khaira and Marco Roy will have to play junior this year. Khaira already committed to Everett, Roy will go back to the Q if he doesn't make the team, which is obviously a long shot. Although, he does look like an impressive pick right now.

2Sedins0Cups 09-07-2013 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skorf (Post 70869865)
Well if we're trying to develop the big bodied players as 3rd line, responsible defensive players... they shouldn't be getting big PP minutes and first line minutes. That's not what their role with the Oilers will be. Would it really do Pitlick or Hamilton any benefit to play first line minutes and be relied upon to score? And then their only chance to make the Oilers really is as a 3rd line type of player? I'd rather see them playing third line minutes myself and be relied upon to play solid defensive hockey, matchup against other teams top lines, and kill penalties.
And Rajala, Omark, Lander, and even Arcobello could all develop into NHL guys still (guys who play major minutes in the top 6 for OKC), really Miller will get minutes there as well this year and he could too. If those guys make the Oilers it will likely be as a top 6 type of guy, so might as well play them top 6 minutes.

Plus like someone else said, you have to earn minutes... nothing worse then gifting a prospect minutes that he does not earn. Look at how well our defense prospects have developed, and they've earned their minutes.

Ya, they don't need 1st line minutes, but they need more than 10 per. You don't have to put them on the PP. You can give them 18-20 min a night, they don't have to light it up, they just have to not get scored on and chip in with a few goals. Let them kill penalties instead of play PP. Doubt many people view Bergeron as a first line center for Boston because he doesn't light the lamp, but he isn't going to get outscored. So, really, he is just fine as a first liner. 1st line doesn't have to mean ultra talented scorer, but they better be effective and be a plus player if they are getting anywhere close to those minutes.


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