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-   -   Is JFJ the right man for the job? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=151049)

MrMackey 07-13-2005 11:25 PM

Is JFJ the right man for the job?
 
Before the lockout I had a pretty good debate with a bunch of posters here, right around the time of the Belfour/Nieuwendyk/Roberts signings.

I can't remember who was involved in the discussion, but one comment that stuck out was that JFJ was a cap expert and had a good handle on where things would end up. The concensus was that all JFJ's moves were great for the team, completely necessary and that they'd be all right heading in to the new CBA.

I'm wondering, now that the deal is done:

A) Does that feeling still hold true with Leaf fans?

B) Has he made the right moves so far as GM (both in 03/04 and prior to the lockout)?

C) Is the team's goal still to win the Cup now, no matter what the long term costs and implications?

D) Is JFJ the right man to meet the team's goals?

I'd try to dig up the original thread but searching's disabled.

Joey24 07-14-2005 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMackey
Before the lockout I had a pretty good debate with a bunch of posters here, right around the time of the Belfour/Nieuwendyk/Roberts signings.

I can't remember who was involved in the discussion, but one comment that stuck out was that JFJ was a cap expert and had a good handle on where things would end up. The concensus was that all JFJ's moves were great for the team, completely necessary and that they'd be all right heading in to the new CBA.

I'm wondering, now that the deal is done:

A) Does that feeling still hold true with Leaf fans?

B) Has he made the right moves so far as GM (both in 03/04 and prior to the lockout)?

C) Is the team's goal still to win the Cup now, no matter what the long term costs and implications?

D) Is JFJ the right man to meet the team's goals?

I'd try to dig up the original thread but searching's disabled.

I have no clue why even bother posting this trade? What bad moves/decisions has the guy made thus far to question his abilites or the direction he is taking this team. He already stated what he plans to do with this team and thats build through the draft while keeping a competive team on the ice. JFJ is going to have his job cut out for him with in the next few weeks and I am sure he will make the right moves to get the team in a finacial status where they are able to compeat next season. And the thing people have to realize is Toronto is not the only team in this situation and with the birth of a cap system in the NHL GM's are going to hold the purse strings a lot tighter and those free agents ain't gonna get nearly as much as they did in the past.

Frankie 07-14-2005 07:48 AM

i have no faith in jfj whatsoever. most of his moves so far have been awful.

his grand plan of focussing on drafting and player development seems to have been flushed down the toilet. in this new cba, amateur scouting and player development will be less important then ever before.

makes you wonder if he has any clue what's going on.

Transplanted Caper 07-14-2005 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frankie
i have no faith in jfj whatsoever. most of his moves so far have been awful.

his grand plan of focussing on drafting and player development seems to have been flushed down the toilet. in this new cba, amateur scouting and player development will be less important then ever before.

makes you wonder if he has any clue what's going on.

Frankie,

Why do you believe it will be less important?

Frankie 07-14-2005 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoLeafsGo2003
Frankie,

Why do you believe it will be less important?

same reason brian burke thinks so.....

Anaheim's new GM (and former TSN panel analyst) stated that there would be a de-emphasis on amateur scouting and an emphasis on pro scouting. This was due to the fact that liberalized free-agency, combined with the GM's task to stay under the cap, would create alot of roster changes each year, especially during the summer. The even playing field, financially that the 30 teams face has allowed for this situation.

with the best players being ufa at ages 25-27, drafting and amateur scouting becomes pointless.

Augustus 07-14-2005 08:20 AM

It is too early to tell. We haven't yet had the chance to judge his abilities or his judgment. It takes several years for a general manager to do much about a team positive or negative (barring extraordinary incompetence or extraordinary luck).

Repeat this thread after the playoffs of 2007 and I will have some strong opinions about this matter.

It Kills Me 07-14-2005 08:22 AM

He hasn't done much that would make me think otherwise.

Pappy 07-14-2005 10:07 AM

Would Pat Quinn be the right Guy
 
Ferguson hasn't proven he's any different than Quinn, his moves up until now have all been Quinn moves, Jackman out Berehowsky in, a 1st and 2nd rd pick and two prospects for Leetch. It's apparrent that Quinn's large shadow is looming large over young Ferguson and he might not have the balls to over come the burden.

Patty Lee 07-14-2005 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pappy
Ferguson hasn't proven he's any different than Quinn, his moves up until now have all been Quinn moves, Jackman out Berehowsky in, a 1st and 2nd rd pick and two prospects for Leetch. It's apparrent that Quinn's large shadow is looming large over young Ferguson and he might not have the balls to over come the burden.

so you don't think a team who is close should do anything at the trade deadline to make themself closer? Let all the other teams they will be battling with improve but do nothing to improve your current roster? If Leetch had of put them over the top the Fergy is a genuis in your eyes.

I don't think you have to worry about his balls Pappy. They're the same size as his father's.

Pappy 07-14-2005 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Around in 67
so you don't think a team who is close should do anything at the trade deadline to make themself closer? Let all the other teams they will be battling with improve but do nothing to improve your current roster? If Leetch had of put them over the top the Fergy is a genuis in your eyes.

I don't think you have to worry about his balls Pappy. They're the same size as his father's.

Any one who thought Brian Leetch would put a team like the Leafs who were consitantly bounced out of the playoffs by more physical teams like New Jersey and Philly, I would consider lacking in foresight and judgement in player evaluation. His father had large balls on the ice but never in the GM portfolio, his teams failed and he eventually was judged to be the reason and dismissed, he had the biggest payroll in hockey as the czar of the NY Rangers but they were unsuccessful in his tenure there. Those trades that Jr. made reminded me of what Fans would have done not a competent GM of an NHL francise, so far he's proven that he's a young man with a lot to learn.

Mess 07-14-2005 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMackey
Before the lockout I had a pretty good debate with a bunch of posters here, right around the time of the Belfour/Nieuwendyk/Roberts signings.

I can't remember who was involved in the discussion, but one comment that stuck out was that JFJ was a cap expert and had a good handle on where things would end up. The concensus was that all JFJ's moves were great for the team, completely necessary and that they'd be all right heading in to the new CBA.

I'm wondering, now that the deal is done:

A) Does that feeling still hold true with Leaf fans?.

Well First I would say it is too early to judge .. I think we will have a better idea of this once we see what the roster looks like come October.

Fergy's pre-lockout decisions make sense ..

Some points to consider on this that I did ..

No one knows how this was going to unfold post lockout .. If there had been a 1/2 season (if people believed that may be more likely then throwing one away) .. Then the Leafs would have hit the ground running bring back their old team ..

20/20 hindsight now that the facts are in ..its hard to complain .. If there was a cap how do we know it would be Grandfathered in or High enough to support a team ??. We know now not then ..

We knew nothing of the 24% rollback .. But $60 mil salary going in, less the 24% put the Leafs roster at $45 mil .. The final offer $42.5 mil got turned down .. Had the NHL said okay $45 mil or had the NHLPA accepted $42.5 then Fergy would have required only a minor adjustment moving forward..

Quinn is your coach and you build a team that fits your coach. So resigning Quinns vets Roberts & Newy etc fit that bill..What if Fergy thought the season was a write off so what harm did it do to please Leaf Fans by signing players like Roberts and Newy and others to 1 year deals.. Now he has had time to decide if Quinn is his coach and find out Quinns feelings on a new team under the new rules..

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMackey
B) Has he made the right moves so far as GM (both in 03/04 and prior to the lockout)?.

I don't think he has made any real bad moves as a rookie GM and the youngest in the league to boot .. Not like he got schooled in any trade from an old vet GM .. He traded for Leetch (who had extra year left) for picks and a couple of late round prospects, in a attempt to win the Cup .. Newy was a great signing at 2 mil .. Classy guy, great for development of Stajan and maybe Leafs best player in the playoffs to boot.

Belfour has showed no signs of slowing down at the time .. He had 34 wins on the season including 10 shutouts.. He single handidly eliminated the Sens in Round 1 by shutting them out 3 or the 4 games, and the older leafs team was a big underdog against the young as fast Sens and then he was invited to Team Canada Camp for the World Cup as Brodeur's backup.. Resigning him was almost a no brainer.. The money seemed high maybe but we don't know what the other 29 teams would have done or offered to steal him away .. Arch Rival Sens might have been the biggest fear or Detroit or even Colorado all in Cup drives ..


Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMackey
C) Is the team's goal still to win the Cup now, no matter what the long term costs and implications?.

I think in TO now post Ballard that is always the goal and should be .. When you speak of costs .. I don't think you are going to see the trading of picks or prospects to continue now going forward, so your NO MATTER has limitations .. Will they spend every penny they can to try a win .. Absolutely they will !!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMackey
D) Is JFJ the right man to meet the team's goals?

I'd try to dig up the original thread but searching's disabled.

We don't know that answer yet .. However being young and new school and having the ability to mold the team in his image now will be interesting going forward .. he has extended his Pro and Amateur scouting and has Quinn and Maurice to draw from as well for advice .. .

Future will tell what is in store .. but us arm chair Leaf GM's can see options in the future with the team, so Fergy is much further ahead then anyone of us with all the info he has .. He only had 8 players under contract so basically a clean slate and a whole new set of rules to play under that might require a GM of Fergy's skill set to become a capologists and mould his team ..

Patty Lee 07-14-2005 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pappy
Any one who thought Brian Leetch would put a team like the Leafs who were consitantly bounced out of the playoffs by more physical teams like New Jersey and Philly, I would consider lacking in foresight and judgement in player evaluation. His father had large balls on the ice but never in the GM portfolio, his teams failed and he eventually was judged to be the reason and dismissed, he had the biggest payroll in hockey as the czar of the NY Rangers but they were unsuccessful in his tenure there. Those trades that Jr. made reminded me of what Fans would have done not a competent GM of an NHL francise, so far he's proven that he's a young man with a lot to learn.

you're right. They should become a more physical team like Tampa Bay. we didn't mention Fergy Sr's record as a GM, only the balls he had. If you don't think he's got big ones than tell him that.

ULF_55 07-14-2005 11:53 AM

http://www.torontosun.com/Sports/Hoc...31130-sun.html

Though Ferguson has a fairly extensive background in contract negotiations, he confirmed yesterday he is in the process of hiring a capologist, a person whose major responsibility will be to memorize every nook and cranny of the salary cap. It's thought that once the CBA is ratified next week, clubs will have a grace period to study the lengthy document before players can be signed.

"There is no definite time frame, but we all have a pretty good understanding that it will take some time to digest, and soon after it will be time to get right down to it," said Ferguson, who concurred that the next few months will be frantic. "We have done a great deal of projection and research."

think-blue- 07-14-2005 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frankie
same reason brian burke thinks so.....

Anaheim's new GM (and former TSN panel analyst) stated that there would be a de-emphasis on amateur scouting and an emphasis on pro scouting. This was due to the fact that liberalized free-agency, combined with the GM's task to stay under the cap, would create alot of roster changes each year, especially during the summer. The even playing field, financially that the 30 teams face has allowed for this situation.

with the best players being ufa at ages 25-27, drafting and amateur scouting becomes pointless.

Pointless? That's absurd. Citing Brian Burke hardly helps your case. If there's a team that has been worse, or equally as bad than the Leafs with regards to drafting in recent years, its been Vancouver. Burke didn't care before, this is just an excuse so he doesn't have to care now. I thought you were good at identifying conspiracy theories and not taking comments at face value, so Im quite surprised in this case.

But, pointless, eh...Let me know when Lou Lamoriello fires David Conte and reallocates his resources into pro scouting :sarcasm:

And for the record, Ferguson has identified both pro and amateur scouting as areas in need of improvement, and has made changes in both areas.

Frankie 07-14-2005 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by think/blue
Pointless? That's absurd. Citing Brian Burke hardly helps your case. If there's a team that has been worse, or equally as bad than the Leafs with regards to drafting in recent years, its been Vancouver. Burke didn't care before, this is just an excuse so he doesn't have to care now. I thought you were good at identifying conspiracy theories and not taking comments at face value, so Im quite surprised in this case.

:biglaugh:

what burke says makes perfect sense. you don't see that?

Quote:

And for the record, Ferguson has identified both pro and amateur scouting as areas in need of improvement, and has made changes in both areas.
ah, "indentified". another one of those trendy hockey words. didn't take a genius to "identify" the leafs problems in those areas.

lets hope jfj now focusses entirely on the pro scouting. let the amateur crowd do their thing, but their jobs just became far less important.

Mess 07-14-2005 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frankie
:biglaugh:

what burke says makes perfect sense. you don't see that?



ah, "indentified". another one of those trendy hockey words. didn't take a genius to "identify" the leafs problems in those areas.

lets hope jfj now focusses entirely on the pro scouting. let the amateur crowd do their thing, but their jobs just became far less important.

Focus on prospect development in the AHL and make them into players at the expense of wins column ..

Fans in TO will be able to accept that this approach will benefit the team right down the street ..

Frankie 07-14-2005 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Messenger
Focus on prospect development in the AHL and make them into players at the expense of wins column ..

Fans in TO will be able to accept that this approach will benefit the team right down the street ..

make them into losing players? excellent!

has nothing to do with the topic. i'm glad they're gone. its quite sad that you continue to harp on that everytime i make a point that you cannot argue with.

berney fkaj 07-14-2005 01:18 PM

JFK will adapt to the new cba quite well.....For all of those who say he mess up the team/made bad moves/made great moves , there is no point getting all worked up about it. All that matters now is if JFK can work this new CBA to his advantage. Toronto still has a huge advantage in that players want to play here...even for less money.

Mess 07-14-2005 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frankie
make them into losing players? excellent!

has nothing to do with the topic. i'm glad they're gone. its quite sad that you continue to harp on that everytime i make a point that you cannot argue with.

You seem to think that Amateur scouting and development are no longer an issue in the new NHL .. Just because a few players will become UFA at an earlier age you feel it is no longer important .. That might be the greatest nonsense you have ever posted ..

In a Cap world inexpensive ELS contracts are more important then ever even if you have hopes of stealing away a player years down the road by offering him the 20% player max ..

Frankie 07-14-2005 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Messenger
You seem to think that Amateur scouting and development are no longer an issue in the new NHL .. Just because a few players will become UFA at an earlier age you feel it is no longer important .. That might be the greatest nonsense you have ever posted ..

i love how you flip flop on topics when you know you don't have an argument. :biglaugh:

but at least i got you back on the topic of this thread.

i seem to think that amateur scouting and development are no longer an issue? have you even read this thread? i'm saying it point blank.

"a few players will become ufa at an earlier age"? :biglaugh: you're going to downplay the effect of ufa's at 25 compared to 31 just for the sake of arguing with me? just yesterday you could barely contain your excitement about the leafs getting a thornton or a nash in their prime years. now you shrug it off as just "a few players at an easlier age"?? that really is hilarious. :biglaugh:

what burke said makes perfect sense. amateur scouting and played development mean far less in this new cba. jfj's master plan took a huge hit.

ULF_55 07-14-2005 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frankie
what burke said makes perfect sense. amateur scouting and played development mean far less in this new cba. jfj's master plan took a huge hit.

Maguire that you?

Knew you were a Hab fan all along.

Come on Pierre, you do the same thing every year, call for the Leafs to miss the playoffs and then eat crow each spring. You are kind of like Fischer in the US who called for the Rangers to win the Cup for about 30 years straight, and then jumped up and down saying, "I called it!"

Frankie 07-14-2005 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ULF_55
Maguire that you?

Knew you were a Hab fan all along.

Come on Pierre, you do the same thing every year, call for the Leafs to miss the playoffs and then eat crow each spring. You are kind of like Fischer in the US who called for the Rangers to win the Cup for about 30 years straight, and then jumped up and down saying, "I called it!"

bothers you, eh? over the past few months you've been here trying to dissect the new cba and playing "lawyer" with the new cba, but you didn't see this one coming!!!

and in one sentence i blew all your little theories to pieces. :teach:

i don't know why you guys don't like it. the leafs have never been good at amateur scouting, and now they don't have to worry about it anymore.

Pappy 07-14-2005 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ULF_55
http://www.torontosun.com/Sports/Hoc...31130-sun.html

Though Ferguson has a fairly extensive background in contract negotiations, he confirmed yesterday he is in the process of hiring a capologist, a person whose major responsibility will be to memorize every nook and cranny of the salary cap. It's thought that once the CBA is ratified next week, clubs will have a grace period to study the lengthy document before players can be signed.

"There is no definite time frame, but we all have a pretty good understanding that it will take some time to digest, and soon after it will be time to get right down to it," said Ferguson, who concurred that the next few months will be frantic. "We have done a great deal of projection and research."

FYI Kevin Abrams is a Canadian and the capologist for the NY Giants think we can lure him here.

ULF_55 07-14-2005 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frankie
bothers you, eh? over the past few months you've been here trying to dissect the new cba and playing "lawyer" with the new cba, but you didn't see this one coming!!!

What was not obvious from the beginning?

Lay off the screetch you're babbling.

Frankie 07-14-2005 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ULF_55
What was not obvious from the beginning?

Lay off the screetch you're babbling.

apparently it wasn't obvious to you. the importance of amateur scouting and development being taken away. "lawyering" the cba to death in all these threads. :biglaugh:

and its screech. no t.


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