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-   -   Holmgren Deserves to get Fired (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1510669)

briererocks 10-05-2013 09:11 PM

Holmgren Deserves to get Fired
 
1. Bryz signing was a disaster.

2. Richards trade has not worked out. Simmonds is heavily overrated by this board and Schenn has not developed into a good player yet.

3. Pronger trade in retrospect was arguably a mistake. Yes we made it to the SCF but we lost 4 first round draft picks and have probably the worst prospect pool in the NHL and are dealing with cap issues every season.

4. The Eminger trade for a first round pick was horrific.

5. The Meszros trade was bad.

6. The Matt Carle trade was bad.

7. The JVR trade was bad (and I like L. Schenn).

8. Our defense is the most expensive in the NHL and is probably the worst defense in the NHL.

9. He brought in Lavi.

He has been an epic failure.

LegionOfDoom91 10-05-2013 09:12 PM

:laugh:

I can't argue that he should go but your arguments for why is terrible.

RoDu 10-05-2013 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by briererocks (Post 72079495)
1. Bryz signing was a disaster.

2. Richards trade has not worked out. Simmonds is heavily overrated by this board and Schenn has not developed into a good player yet.

3. Pronger trade in retrospect was arguably a mistake. Yes we made it to the SCF but we lost 4 first round draft picks and have probably the worst prospect pool in the NHL and are dealing with cap issues every season.

4. The Eminger trade for a first round pick was horrific.

5. The Meszros trade was bad.

6. The Matt Carle trade was bad.

7. The JVR trade was bad (and I like L. Schenn).

8. Our defense is the most expensive in the NHL and is probably the worst defense in the NHL.

9. He brought in Lavi.

He has been an epic failure.

What made this one bad was going all out but forgetting to get a goalie

briererocks 10-05-2013 09:13 PM

10. Having Shelley and other useless players on our team every season.

briererocks 10-05-2013 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 (Post 72079773)
:laugh:

I can't argue that he should go but your arguments for why is terrible.

He signed Pronger a 35 year old defenseman and surprise - his body broke down. The Flyers have down the same thing repeatedly with older defensman with the same result - Rathje, Hatcher etc.. The took a huge risk on Pronger and a huge cap hit and sacrificed 4 first round draft picks gambling that he would help them win a cup. It did not work out. If it did he would be celebrated, but in retrospect, as I said at the time of the trade, it was a bad trade.

Newfy IceCapd 10-05-2013 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by briererocks (Post 72079839)
10. Having Shelley and other useless players on our team every season.

hey, don't talk about hal gill like that

Adam Warlock 10-05-2013 09:18 PM

Homer isnt perfect but this team is a pretty well constructed one. Everyone thought his offseason was dreadful, but so far the new guys have been the best ones out there. The problem has been getting these guys to play consistently as a team...and that falls on the coach. Homers biggest problem right now is his loyalty to Lavy.

Curufinwe 10-05-2013 09:18 PM

Prongers injury had nothing to do with his age. Your arguments are basically all terrible.

The reason Holmgren should be fired is that he didn't get a new coach in this off season despite it being plain as day that Laviolette had run his course here.

CyborgLindros 10-05-2013 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curufinwe (Post 72080841)
Prongers injury had nothing to do with his age. Your arguments are basically all terrible.

The reason Holmgren should be fired is that he didn't get a new coach in this off season despite it being plain as day that Laviolette had run his course here.

^this

As for Pronger your equating a concussion to a physical injury caused in part by his age. A concussion that serious can happen at any time to any player

MsWoof 10-05-2013 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyborgLindros (Post 72081369)
^this

As for Pronger your equating a concussion to a physical injury caused in part by his age. A concussion that serious can happen at any time to any player

Never mind the concussion, the 4 surgeries in 15 months had an impact on his play. He was always slow but he was getting beaten to the outside more frequently. Look at Kimmo now and that's basically what we'd have if Pronger was playing. People act like he's 30 years old and in his prime but he was starting to play worse.

LegionOfDoom91 10-05-2013 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curufinwe (Post 72080841)
Prongers injury had nothing to do with his age. Your arguments are basically all terrible.

The reason Holmgren should be fired is that he didn't get a new coach in this off season despite it being plain as day that Laviolette had run his course here.

Exactly this, not citing trades from 5 years ago.

Appleyard 10-05-2013 09:32 PM

For the Schenn discussion.

JVR averaged 15.10 in ice time his last season here and got 46 points (factored), 9th in ice time among forwards.

Last year he was at 56, this year he is pretty sure to break 60.

Schenn averaged 15.31 in ice time last year and got 46 points (factored), 8th in ice time among forwards

I imagine if we trade him the same trend will happen.

Garbage Goal 10-05-2013 09:33 PM

Yeah, I'm a big advocate of Homer being gone but you have some of the most terrible reasoning possible TC.

CyborgLindros 10-05-2013 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MsWoof (Post 72081957)
Never mind the concussion, the 4 surgeries in 15 months had an impact on his play. He was always slow but he was getting beaten to the outside more frequently. Look at Kimmo now and that's basically what we'd have if Pronger was playing. People act like he's 30 years old and in his prime but he was starting to play worse.

I'm not saying Pronger wasn't on a decline, but he wasn't playing terrible at the time of injury either. Would that trade be viewed so poorly if he was were still playing?

moosehead81 10-05-2013 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mota (Post 72080763)
Homer isnt perfect but this team is a pretty well constructed one. Everyone thought his offseason was dreadful, but so far the new guys have been the best ones out there. The problem has been getting these guys to play consistently as a team...and that falls on the coach. Homers biggest problem right now is his loyalty to Lavy.

If what I've seen in the first two games constitutes a well constructed team, then I'd hate to see a poorly constructed team. Start from the goal-tenders thru the defence and out to the forwards, I'll give you one out of two (the forwards). Goaltending is immensely unproven and the defence is slow and, in the case of Timmonen, getting mightily old. Add to that a system that relies heavily on offence first (likely trying to play to the strengths of the forwards) and what appears to be a "team" ready to quit on its coach and you have a recipe for disaster. It's very early yet and I am hopefully wrong but I fear the worse. At least Mike Richards tried to play both ends of the ice- I don't see that much from this group.

Roman Reigns 10-05-2013 09:55 PM

I don't agree with everything on your list and wouldn't call him an ''epic failure'' but I do agree he has to go.

MsWoof 10-05-2013 10:05 PM

The problem is he doesn't have a plan. You have way too many young guys, way too many old guys and not enough core guys entering or exiting their prime. Every year there is a massive panic move in the offseason and this off season was likely the worst. Vinny is playing great for now but he's got a ton of mileage on him and is injury prone. Streit's contract had red flags all over it from the beginning. Imagine what the team would look like if we didn't luck into amnesty buyouts?!?!?

Roman Reigns 10-05-2013 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MsWoof (Post 72087671)
The problem is he doesn't have a plan. You have way too many young guys, way too many old guys and not enough core guys entering or exiting their prime. Every year there is a massive panic move in the offseason and this off season was likely the worst. Vinny is playing great for now but he's got a ton of mileage on him and is injury prone. Streit's contract had red flags all over it from the beginning. Imagine what the team would look like if we didn't luck into amnesty buyouts?!?!?

Yup. He kind of just goes season by season reacting to what happened rather than staying the course. I can't put complete blame on him though because I don't feel Snider gives his GM's much time or patience to exercise a long term plan.

FreshPerspective 10-05-2013 10:11 PM

Holmgren's pushed the reset button a bit too many times now and we're still spinning our wheels as an organization....

Again..he has been very inconsistent and once again many of us that wanted him gone along with Bryz are being proven correct.

People who keep apologizing for him are not getting it..I mean the guy has no middle ground. He is either bold and brave with his moves sometimes reaping success or he dithers like he did with Stevens and now Lavi. I mean we almost missed the playoffs because he decided to extend Stevens which I was also against at the time and sure enough the season of his extension he got canned. Now the same crap with Lavi and this is worse because he missed out on some good coaches who were available.

FlyersFan61290 10-05-2013 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mota (Post 72080763)
Homer isnt perfect but this team is a pretty well constructed one. Everyone thought his offseason was dreadful, but so far the new guys have been the best ones out there. The problem has been getting these guys to play consistently as a team...and that falls on the coach. Homers biggest problem right now is his loyalty to Lavy.

This^

This should be a good team, they just aren't competing out there. He's made his mistakes but most look much worse in retrospect (Bryz) and many others "mistakes" listed above aren't that at all.

I wouldn't be opposed to letting Homer "step down" but I really don't think he deserves all this blame. Like the Pronger and Richards trade, come on bro.

JustJim 10-05-2013 10:51 PM

Paul Holmgren and the Flyers organization seem to be stuck in the 70's. The dump and grind approach is an absolute failure on the offensive side. The defense back in on their goalies, thus creating a pourous situation. They could have vintage Ken Dryder in the nets, but with their retreating defense, the goalie is forced out of position or is blinded by those huge bodies blocking his view.
Laviolette has very little control over his team, the same mistakes that have been taking place for the past two seasons are still happening. His assistant coaches are obviously not effectively achieving the problems that are constantly existing, so Laviolette's choices for his assistants are as equally unsuccessful as himself.
The Flyers have some very talented players, and their potential for greatness is being unfulfilled under the current management staff.
Holmgren should've never been named GM. The fact that he has maintained that job for so many years is an absolute failure for Ed Snider.
The changes needed will not take place as long as Snider is still at the head of this organization.
Snider cannot be fired, but I sure wish he could be bought out and silenced permanently!

captainpaxil 10-05-2013 10:56 PM

Promoted to vice president of next office over from bob clark

Roman Reigns 10-05-2013 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustJim (Post 72092353)
Paul Holmgren and the Flyers organization seem to be stuck in the 70's. The dump and grind approach is an absolute failure on the offensive side. The defense back in on their goalies, thus creating a pourous situation. They could have vintage Ken Dryder in the nets, but with their retreating defense, the goalie is forced out of position or is blinded by those huge bodies blocking his view.
Laviolette has very little control over his team, the same mistakes that have been taking place for the past two seasons are still happening. His assistant coaches are obviously not effectively achieving the problems that are constantly existing, so Laviolette's choices for his assistants are as equally unsuccessful as himself.
The Flyers have some very talented players, and their potential for greatness is being unfulfilled under the current management staff.
Holmgren should've never been named GM. The fact that he has maintained that job for so many years is an absolute failure for Ed Snider.
The changes needed will not take place as long as Snider is still at the head of this organization.
Snider cannot be fired, but I sure wish he could be bought out and silenced permanently!

Well the bright side is he's pretty damn old so it can't be that much longer. Maybe we'll have an ownership group and GM who will win us something before we break the Rangers 54 year cup drought record.

Victory5 10-06-2013 12:58 AM

Homer overreacts to everything


We should have kept the core from the 2010 run, and with Bob coming up, we could have had a solid goalie for years to come.


Simple in hindsight I guess

Unstable 10-06-2013 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SCOREacek (Post 72092765)
Well the bright side is he's pretty damn old so it can't be that much longer. Maybe we'll have an ownership group and GM who will win us something before we break the Rangers 54 year cup drought record.

Seriously?


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