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-   -   A very porous blueline! (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1513447)

NewHabsEra* 10-09-2013 11:45 PM

A very porous blueline!
 
And the reason is quite simple, we have too many 6-7th defensemen on this squad.. Without Emelin, our lack of depth at the blueline becomes evident.. with all due respect to Josh Gorges, he isnt a quality top 4 anymore (Has he ever been?), I think he can be a reliable bottom pairing defensemen when used adequately but you clearly see that he just cant play on a top 4 role, first he doesnt have any offensive skills and secondly he isnt physical at all, at least before he was taking the body and was finding ways to be reliable but right now he just makes too many mistakes and is exposed big time.. Bouillon looks used to not say finished, he looks overall very bad and shouldnt play as a regular anymore.. Sorry to break your bubble but Tinordi shouldnt play in the NHL right now, his place is in the AHL where he should spend at least another season to work on his quickness, decision making and puck skills, right now he looks like a poor man Hal Gill out there... Diaz is an average puckmover, undersized, who has his bad times defensively, he is at best a decent 5th defenseman caliber.. I think Markov still can be considered a decent top 4 from what he shown so far this season but the guy isnt getting younger or any faster.. Asking Markov to play with a bottom pairing defenseman is too much asking for his capacities, thats why the lost of Emelin hurts us that much, Emelin was easily developing in a pretty solid and reliable top 4 defenseman, the kid skates well, moves the puck well, has good reading of the play, very good mobility, great size and hits like a truck, in fact the only thing he cant do is running a 1PP unit..

We all love Subban and all but the charge on his shoulders right now is too huge.. The guy has no help at all, not only we ask him to play top minutes with a 6th defenseman but he has all the pressure to generate all the offense from behind while we ask him to be perfect and never out of position at the same time.. There is no way this team can succeed with a such porous blueline unless Price is miraculous every nights til Emelin comes back and gets back to the level he was before the injury..

It could be a pretty long season since quality top 4 defensemen are a rare thing to get in this league..

Lafleurs Guy 10-09-2013 11:50 PM

We have one of the best blueline groups in the league... don't you know this?

bdawg1989* 10-09-2013 11:54 PM

What is even more scary is we have no potential top4 D in our prospect pool...

Beendair Donedat 10-09-2013 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bdawg1989 (Post 72318771)
What is even more scary is we have no potential top4 D in our prospect pool...

Disagree completely.

Dietz, Thrower, Beaulieu and possibly Nygren could all be top four blueliners in the NHL.

bdawg1989* 10-10-2013 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beendair Donedat (Post 72318901)
Disagree completely.

Dietz, Thrower, Beaulieu and possibly Nygren could all be top four blueliners in the NHL.

Nope. Just others overrated Habs prospect. Like Diaz and his 'potential' when he first arrived, and Weber before him...

NewHabsEra* 10-10-2013 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beendair Donedat (Post 72318901)
Disagree completely.

Dietz, Thrower, Beaulieu and possibly Nygren could all be top four blueliners in the NHL.

Thats overly and grossly optimistic.. No one, outside Beaulieu, showed flashes of real promise of a future top 4.. All the guys named are marginal prospects as we are speaking.. While Beaulieu has obvious very high skills set, he needs alot of work defensively and work on his consistency..

Draft 10-10-2013 12:22 AM

Josh Gorges is absolutely a top-4 defenceman. He's a great +20min defenceman who can kill penalties, block shots, and can be relied upon to play big minutes without much hassle. He's low maintenance and can play just about anywhere. However, he's not a #2 defenceman and not currently a good compliment to PK Subban. He should be playing on the second pairing, no question.

XXXX-Subban
Gorges-Emelin
Tinordi-Nygren/Diaz/Beaulieu
(Pateryn/Drewiskie)

*XXXX does not stand for Markov.

Beendair Donedat 10-10-2013 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewHabsEra (Post 72319317)
Thats overly and grossly optimistic.. No one, outside Beaulieu, showed flashes of real promise of a future top 4.. All the guys named are marginal prospects as we are speaking.. While Beaulieu has obvious very high skills set, he needs alot of work defensively and work on his consistency..

"Could be" being the key words. Marginal prospects like those, most teams would love to have in their systems... Time will tell, I think you'll see a couple of those guys in the top 4.

Lafleurs Guy 10-10-2013 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draft (Post 72320033)
Josh Gorges is absolutely a top-4 defenceman. He's a great +20min defenceman who can kill penalties, block shots, and can be relied upon to play big minutes without much hassle. He's low maintenance and can play just about anywhere. However, he's not a #2 defenceman and not currently a good compliment to PK Subban. He should be playing on the second pairing, no question.

Once upon I time I used to think he was very good. That time has passed. He's totally expendable now.

Agnostic 10-10-2013 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy (Post 72318559)
We have one of the best blueline groups in the league... don't you know this?

You waste so much time acting like an 8 year old. Don't you have anything useful to say?

TheGoalJudge 10-10-2013 12:25 AM

When everyone's healthy I think it's basically this:

_____ - Subban
Markov - Emelin
Gorges - _____

Fill in the blanks and we might be alright. Right now we're trash back there. Bouillon's on the ice when we need a goal.

Agnostic 10-10-2013 12:27 AM

Blue line concerns being overstated. A couple mistakes hit the back of the net but this was a very winnable game . This team will not win with only one forward line clicking.

Lafleurs Guy 10-10-2013 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGoalJudge (Post 72320185)
When everyone's healthy I think it's basically this:

_____ - Subban
Markov - Emelin
Gorges - _____

Fill in the blanks and we might be alright. Right now we're trash back there. Bouillon's on the ice when we need a goal.

Bouillion is past his best before date. He's a number 7 or 8 guy and we're playing him way too much.

And I've always liked Bouillon too. He has heart, stands up for his teammates and was a pretty decent blueliner for a long time. But he's done. And I don't know what MT sees in this guy...

Beaker 10-10-2013 12:36 AM

Guys, c'mon, we got Murray coming to the rescue soon.

Frozenice 10-10-2013 12:39 AM

This isn't a simple, quick or easy problem to fix.

If we're talking about drafting players, 4 or 5 years will be needed unless we are tanking outright and then it can be done quicker.

For the last couple of drafts I've been saying we need to draft d-men and almost everyone dismissed the idea. Maybe we'll get lucky, sometimes good d-men are available for a reasonable price, I hope we can score something there.

Chfan 10-10-2013 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bdawg1989 (Post 72319081)
Nope. Just others overrated Habs prospect. Like Diaz and his 'potential' when he first arrived, and Weber before him...

:help:

NewHabsEra* 10-10-2013 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beendair Donedat (Post 72320047)
"Could be" being the key words. Marginal prospects like those, most teams would love to have in their systems... Time will tell, I think you'll see a couple of those guys in the top 4.

Alot of teams have marginal prospects like Dietz Nygren Thrower Pateryn.. in their prospects pool, no one of these guys showed anything concrete at the AHL level or at the main camp, outside Beaulieu, to elevate their status to serious top 4 potential..

Draft 10-10-2013 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy (Post 72320089)
Once upon I time I used to think he was very good. That time has passed. He's totally expendable now.

I don't think he's VERY good, I just think he's a heck of a lot better than what we make him out to be. He's not a game-changer and he doesn't have a huge impact on the game, negatively or positively, and that's a good thing in a lot of ways. He should be a second pairing defenceman and logging minutes, he shouldn't be relied upon to hold down a pairing or provide offence. He's a valuable part of our team.

Dharvey33 10-10-2013 01:18 AM

We should give Diaz's or Bouillon's spot to Beaulieu. Might as well live and die with his rookie mistakes. At least we know he will be learning.

Tinordi had a bad night tonight but he shouldn't have been bencher in favor of Bouillon an absolute offense killer.

I would do Gorges Subban
Emelin Beaulieu
Markov Tinordi.

Suit up Murray when we play tought rivals.
Trade Diaz and Bouillon.

NewHabsEra* 10-10-2013 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draft (Post 72321781)
I don't think he's VERY good, I just think he's a heck of a lot better than what we make him out to be. He's not a game-changer and he doesn't have a huge impact on the game, negatively or positively, and that's a good thing in a lot of ways. He should be a second pairing defenceman and logging minutes, he shouldn't be relied upon to hold down a pairing or provide offence. He's a valuable part of our team.

Gorges has a big heart, thats why I agree with you that he still is a valuable part of our team, but no way he should be part of a decent NHL top 4, thats where we desagree.. He has no puckmoving skills, a weak and inacurrate shot, below average passing and isnt physical.. The only things he does well is blocking shots, is positionally sound and has experience.. He has his utility, especially on a penality kill, but as a bottom pairing defenseman, no more. Also, his contract in today's market is pretty bad, 3.9M for the next 5 years, ouch, I really doubt he is movable at that price... BTW, who signed him Bergevin or Gauthier I dont recall??

compile 10-10-2013 03:25 AM

I honestly want these pairings...

Emelin-Subban
Markov-Bealieu
Murray - Tinordi/Gorges.

I honestly don't understand some coaches, you need a mix.

Subban can skate and is a TWD, while Emelin is slower but more defensive sound.

Markov is slower and more offensive minded and Bealieu is a speed demon

The last pairing is strictly PK and defensive zone coverage, full out stay at home dmen.

I'd rather a rookie make mistakes then a 15year+ vet.

couris 10-10-2013 07:32 AM

diaz tu tasse ca avec lindex gauche -Ron Fournier

Tuggy 10-10-2013 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bdawg1989 (Post 72318771)
What is even more scary is we have no potential top4 D in our prospect pool...

What a crook. Beaulieu has an incredibly high ceiling.

Monctonscout 10-10-2013 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bdawg1989 (Post 72318771)
What is even more scary is we have no potential top4 D in our prospect pool...

What prospect pool are you looking at? We have as many top 4 defense prospect as any NHL team. Tinordi Beaulieu Nygren plus guys like Dietz and Bennett who have a shot at being #3-4 guys.

onice 10-10-2013 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewHabsEra (Post 72318299)
And the reason is quite simple, we have too many 6-7th defensemen on this squad.. .

If this is in reference to last night's game, you are partly right. The defence played badly especially in the first period.

But I ask you did Calgary's defence play any better? An argument can be made that their defence played as badly if not worse yet Calgary won.

I don't blame Price for the loss but he sure as hell was one of the reasons the team lost. The first goal it was bad rebound management. The third goal he was just too slow to react.

Gorges, DD, Briere, Tinordi playing like a chicken with his head cut off, Boullion on in the last minutes, the coaching staff, those were other reasons.

Last night was a perfect example of what some of the Price detractors have been saying. Both defence sucked yet Calgary won the game because their goalie outplayed ours. That's twice in three games that the opposing goaltender outplays Price. If he is going to live up to his elite goalie status that has to stop.

He is being paid to outplay opposing goal tenders. That's what an elite goal does, Except for Markov no one on the defence is being paid to outplay the opposing defence.

You want a defence that consistently outplays the opposing defence well you better go find the cap space to make that happen.


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