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-   -   Anyone agree with Simmons? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=151489)

ATG 07-15-2005 01:49 PM

Anyone agree with Simmons?
 
Steve Simmons today wrote a big article in the Sun stating that the leafs should buy out everyone but Stajan, Tucker, Sundin and Tellqvist and let their RFA's walk as well.Do you agree with him?

Dar 07-15-2005 01:55 PM

Agree + Simmons = NO !!!

albathegreat* 07-15-2005 01:58 PM

no

Mess 07-15-2005 02:00 PM

Buying out Kaberle in his article should be a good indication how clueless Simmons is ..

Kill 'Em All 07-15-2005 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dar
Agree + Simmons = NO !!!

i'm gonna go with that.

Transplanted Caper 07-15-2005 02:03 PM

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Columnists...33203-sun.html

link to the article

ATG 07-15-2005 02:08 PM

Seems that Philly may buy out Danny Markov. I would love to see him back in blue and white...

Leaf Army 07-15-2005 02:10 PM

What an imbecile.

For some reason he thinks that having $29 million to sign 19 players is a good position to be in. Meanwhile ignoring that some of the players you just bought out are better than the ones you could hope to sign.

This is along the same lines as those who think Boston is in a great position right now. I couldn't disagree more.

Boston will be forced to hand out bad contracts- just wait and see.

The Bruins pretty much have one month to sign 20 players. That means they'll have a signing to announce 2/3 days of the month. Sure that might be exciting if you're a Boston fan but it's not a good way to build a team.

When you've got 20 players to sign, there's no fooling around. You can't afford sit there and be picky. If there's a player they want, they won't be able to sit there and hardline them. There will be tremendous pressure on them to sign a lot of players very quickly.

Also, I hear that Sinden has promised the fans they will spend the cap limit. Another mistake- that's when bad, bad decisions are made. When it gets down to near the end of August, many guys are already signed and they've still got money to spend and a promise to the fans, that's when they'll overpay for someone badly. You watch.

DutchLeafsfan 07-15-2005 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leaf Army
This is along the same lines as those who think Boston is in a great position right now. I couldn't disagree more.

Boston will be forced to hand out bad contracts- just wait and see.

The Bruins pretty much have one month to sign 20 players. That means they'll have a signing to announce 2/3 days of the month. Sure that might be exciting if you're a Boston fan but it's not a good way to build a team.

Hehe

Harry Sinden: "Hey player X. Harry Sinden of the Boston Bruins here. We are currently building a team for next year, and were wondeirng if you would be interested in playing for us?

Player X: "Oh hi Harry, I do like Boston as a city, but I do have a couple of questions. How are you going to work everything out with salaries, and who will I be playing with?"

Sinden: "Well, we do have Joe Thornton..."

Player X: "The rights to Thornton who is an RFA? Anything else?"

Sinden: "Er..."

Dar 07-15-2005 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leaf Army
What an imbecile.

I think the funniest thing about the whole article is that in the same paper, same day, one of his associates, Mike Ulmer totally dismisses Simmons theory:

Unassailable truth No. 4: The fewest players you have under contract, the better off you are.

Bottom line: Maybe not.

Teams will have 10 days after the ratification of the deal, expected next week, to sign their protected players. Then comes the free-agency sweepstakes some time after the July 30 draft. That doesn't leave a lot of time for cool thinking

"Good luck signing 15 players in just a couple of weeks," a GM said.


Link

Mess 07-15-2005 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leaf Army
What an imbecile.

For some reason he thinks that having $29 million to sign 19 players is a good position to be in. Meanwhile ignoring that some of the players you just bought out are better than the ones you could hope to sign.

This is along the same lines as those who think Boston is in a great position right now. I couldn't disagree more.

Boston will be forced to hand out bad contracts- just wait and see.

The Bruins pretty much have one month to sign 20 players. That means they'll have a signing to announce 2/3 days of the month. Sure that might be exciting if you're a Boston fan but it's not a good way to build a team.

When you've got 20 players to sign, there's no fooling around. You can't afford sit there and be picky. If there's a player they want, they won't be able to sit there and hardline them. There will be tremendous pressure on them to sign a lot of players very quickly.

Also, I hear that Sinden has promised the fans they will spend the cap limit. Another mistake- that's when bad, bad decisions are made. When it gets down to near the end of August, many guys are already signed and they've still got money to spend and a promise to the fans, that's when they'll overpay for someone badly. You watch.

I for one have changed my postiton on this issue a little all things considered ..

The buyout with no cost to cap is huge ..

if you are a player though and you have had to put up with Jacobs and his tactics then Bean town is not so attractive .. Joe Thornton has already gone on record he wants out of Boston and may take that earliest opportunity ..

I think the key is team success posibility .. How do you lure top UFA to your town with the unknown roster .. You could sign a couple players and then promote you AHL team and play at league minimum .. So that is scary from a UFA point of view ..

Think of it from the Boston GM O'Connell point of view .. How can you figure out spending and who is coming when you throw 15 balls in the air and see what happens .. While you are negotiating on one player or getting in a bidding war .. Some of the other players you are interested in may be signing elsewhere ..

From that standpoint Toronto is in excellent position ..They know they have Mats and Eddie and already McCabe, Kabs, Carlo and Klee on D .. You have vets that want to return to Toronto and will patiently wait for a TO offer to come without running off, or at least give Fergy the heads up to match another offer ..
Cap space is not all its cracked up to be, when certainty of the team having core players under contract is a benefit ..

It Kills Me 07-15-2005 02:31 PM

What a dumbass. Does he want us to be messed by like the Bruins. A convo with Fergy and Player X... Um we have Sunday.

This guy just wasted another 2 minutes of my life. I always turn off the TV when he's on TSN.

Transplanted Caper 07-15-2005 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skittles.TML
What a dumbass. Does he want us to be messed by like the Bruins. A convo with Fergy and Player X... Um we have Sunday.

This guy just wasted another 2 minutes of my life. I always turn off the TV when he's on TSN.


Just wait...the Leafs will have one surprise buyout (lets say Kaberle) and Simons will claim that the Leafs are listening to him again. Remember oour winning streak 2 years ago?

It Kills Me 07-15-2005 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoLeafsGo2003
Remember oour winning streak 2 years ago?

No.

Leaf Army 07-15-2005 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Messenger
Think of it from the Boston GM O'Connell point of view .. How can you figure out spending and who is coming when you throw 15 balls in the air and see what happens .. While you are negotiating on one player or getting in a bidding war .. Some of the other players you are interested in may be signing elsewhere ..

This is a good point and one that sometimes as fans we don't really think about.

It takes a long time to negotiate a contract. You don't just call up an agent and a couple hours later you're announcing the deal to the media. Every contract negotiation you're in will take time away from another possible deal. This certainly applies RFA negotiations too let alone UFA deals.

Even from a strictly logistical standpoint I don't envy O'Connell. Needless to say he won't have any time off during August.

Transplanted Caper 07-15-2005 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skittles.TML
No.


really? Simmons wrote an article saying there was a huge rift in the Leafs dressing room. The Leafs proceeded to go an undefeated streak of a dozen games or so, and Simmons took credit for the turnaround :shakehead

habfan4 07-15-2005 02:45 PM

It's nice that Simmons wants to spend all my wife's pension money retooling the Leafs. :amazed: Anyone have this dolts address so I can egg his house.

Mess 07-15-2005 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leaf Army
This is a good point and one that sometimes as fans we don't really think about.

It takes a long time to negotiate a contract. You don't just call up an agent and a couple hours later you're announcing the deal to the media. Every contract negotiation you're in will take time away from another possible deal. This certainly applies RFA negotiations too let alone UFA deals.

Even from a strictly logistical standpoint I don't envy O'Connell. Needless to say he won't have any time off during August.

To build on that point further ..

We don't really know what market price is under the new CBA .. There is no track record .. If you are a UFA are you going to jump at the first offer (unless its the team you want) ?? Not very likely IMO ..

I would take a wait and see approach and watch as the market unfolds ..

Particularly the big Stars .. They will get their money .. But a team like Boston waiting on them to make a decision is difficult knowing you need 15 more UFA to fill the team .. As you go off buying minor fillers you get further from the player in cap room and without being able to land the big name early how do you sell the team to other UFA ?? The old Chicken and Egg concept which came first ..

If Toronto talks to Forsbergs or Naslund agent they know Mats is there looking for a winger .. and a Healthy Belfour gives them a chance at a playoff run ..

Teams in the position to pick and chose the right fit rather then having to fill 15 fits is much better IMO ..

Take teams like Habs and Sens they have core guys Theo & Saku and Hossa and Haveltt and Spezza to get signed as RFA .. Until you do you can't really go UFA shopping as you will never know what you can truely offer a player ..

Again the leafs have minor RFA .. with maybe Ant the biggest name on the list ..

DutchLeafsfan 07-15-2005 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by habfan4
It's nice that Simmons wants to spend all my wife's pension money retooling the Leafs. :amazed: Anyone have this dolts address so I can egg his house.

If you manage to find it, be sure to let us know. I am sure at least 90% of the Leafs' fanbase would gladly join you...

One thing which jut came to mind btw, is that the whole consensus after the Leetch/Gonchar deals was that the Bruins had gotten the better deal, getting a younger guy they should be able to keep for a while after signing him. Kind of turned out differently...

wasting time 07-15-2005 02:54 PM

In fairness to Simmons, he was not saying that dumping the roster was the best way to go. He was only saying that it is "an extreme option" and worth some thought, but I am sure he does not believe that it is the best option.

Why is it a bad option? Because it is an all-in gamble. Such an extreme measure is rarely attempted and only if the upside is perceived to be substantial. For example, the Philly/Quebec for Lindros trade - that was an extreme gamble that did not pay off. Purging the roster so you can sign up 20 yet undefined players is ridiculous.

However, I do think that the buy out option should be looked at more seriously for more players than just Nolan. I believe players like McCabe, Berg and Antropov may be slightly over-priced in this new market. Belfour, Kaberle and Sundin are pillars for the team, in my opinion.

I suppose it depends whether the scouts saw any improvement in Berg and Antropov in Europe? As for McCabe, well, I saw enough of him the first 4 months of the season after they took away his beloved can-opener; I saw enough of him in the Philly series; and I am pretty sure I would have seen enough of him in Sweden. This guy, while a decent player, and a good Quinn trade IS OVER RATED, OVER PRICED and a head case.

Leaf Army 07-15-2005 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wasting time
As for McCabe, well, I saw enough of him the first 4 months of the season after they took away his beloved can-opener; I saw enough of him in the Philly series; and I am pretty sure I would have seen enough of him in Sweden. This guy, while a decent player, and a good Quinn trade IS OVER RATED, OVER PRICED and a head case.

What I think is overrated is the notion that taking away the can-opener from McCabe had any impact whatsoever on his play.

1. He still does it sometimes.

2. Even when it was "allowed" (although technically it never was) he only did it once every two or three games. It's not like he used it on every single play.

3. It's not like it provides any great advantage. It's just a stupid stick move to catch guys off balance and knock them down.

4. If Harry Neale didn't start calling it the can-opener and pointing it out every time, no one would even know what it was or notice that he was doing it.

5. Losing his spot on the PP to Svehla and being paired with Lumme all year did far more to hinder McCabe's performance then the stupid can-opener ever did.

wasting time 07-15-2005 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leaf Army
What I think is overrated is the notion that taking away the can-opener from McCabe had any impact whatsoever on his play.

1. He still does it sometimes.

2. Even when it was "allowed" (although technically it never was) he only did it once every two or three games. It's not like he used it on every single play.

3. It's not like the can-opener actually improved his play. It's just a stupid stick move to catch guys off balance and knock them down. It's not like it provides any great advantage.

4. Losing his spot on the PP to Svehla and being paired with Lumme all year did far more to hinder McCabe's performance then the stupid can-opener ever did.

the point was that McCabe struggled through the first half of that season because he lacked the mental capacity to change to the stricter enforcement of the rules. When the refs backed off, his game improved.

regardless McCabe is not a thinking man's dman that's for sure. He is way over rated by Leaf fans.

gobuds 07-15-2005 03:16 PM

I happen to agree that they should buy out more then just nolan- I would say bye bye to eddie, mcabe (he is done playing hockey for the rest of his life anyway) for sure. Kaberle would depend on what i thought i could get for equal money, same with klee.

Mess 07-15-2005 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leaf Army
What I think is overrated is the notion that taking away the can-opener from McCabe had any impact whatsoever on his play.

1. He still does it sometimes.

2. Even when it was "allowed" (although technically it never was) he only did it once every two or three games. It's not like he used it on every single play.

3. It's not like it provides any great advantage. It's just a stupid stick move to catch guys off balance and knock them down.

4. If Harry Neale didn't start calling it the can-opener and pointing it out every time, no one would even know what it was or notice that he was doing it.

5. Losing his spot on the PP to Svehla and being paired with Lumme all year did far more to hinder McCabe's performance then the stupid can-opener ever did.

But you would have to admit there is something to not being invited to the World Cup or World Championship or Olympics and the coach of the team is your own Pat Quinn ..

Despite being named an All-Star and producing , there must be a reason why talent evaluators and team builders always leave his name of these lists ..

wasting time 07-15-2005 03:54 PM

Before the lock out Rathje makes 2.1, Hannan makes 1.25, Regyr makes 1.25. After the lock out McCabe still makes 3? Nah, way overpaid. Last year, no big deal, this year, very big deal.

I say cut him loose. My guess is that his maket value in the new CBA will be somewhere around $1.7-$2.0 million on a maximum 2 year deal. My guess is that Antropov will command maybe $700,000. Aki Berg, maybe $900,000. Is it worth overpaying these 3 guys a combined $1.5 - $2 million?


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