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cwede 10-25-2013 02:05 PM

Coaching Discussion Thread
 
Vigneault? another Trottier\Tom Webster\Ron Stewart\Larry Popein\Boom Boom

cripes, has any other team had so many ineffective new coaches since '60's expansion?

Maybe AV gets to finish his first season, unlike the guys I listed (Webster was actually health), but this is pathetic.

The players haven't produced, but the team has no identity or presence.

beef 4 lunch 10-25-2013 02:29 PM

couple thoughts on AV:

I doubt that he was hired with the expectation that this team would be successful right away. Maybe it was not expected to be THIS bad, but as I've said before, this is a terrible roster, just terrible. No coach could win with this roster.

I would expect that AV presented a plan to achieve success over a period of one or two or three years. The 1st part of this season would be dedicated to getting to know the roster and making personnel decisions. As the season goes on, I expect the Rangers to be active in trading undesirables and acquiring players that better fit the system and team identity.

As time goes goes by, and the coach has acquired the players he wants, the bar will be raised. I would be completely shocked if he got the boot this year.....it would take a worse than last place finish.

I am excited at the prospect of a new coach and system AND regular playing time for some young blood in the form of young guys from Hartford, high draft picks, and skilled players from trades.

Just need to ride out this low point.

Machinehead 10-25-2013 02:34 PM

I want Herb Brooks.

Savant 10-25-2013 02:57 PM

Alain Vigneault is a good hockey coach. However I think he is a terrible fit.

I disagree he was that brought in with low expectations, that makes no sense to me. They got him because he was a veteran "players" coach that has a reputation for winning. If they wanted to go for an overhaul they would have gone in a different direction, and changes to the roster would have reflected this, and a rebuild would have began. It is a logical time to rebuild because of all the impending free agents, but it is unlikely Sather goes in that direction because he is Sather.

They thought getting rid of Torts and adding a more offensive coach would lead to more wins, but instead the defense is worse because they don't know what to do in his system, and the offense is horrendous, not only because of injuries, but because they lack the personnel to play how AV wants to. To use an NFL analogy, it is very hard to play a 3-4 defense if you have 4-3 personnel, and everyone suffers because it represents a lot of square pegs in round holes. I also think hiring Arniel was a massive mistake and put another unnecessary distraction in the mix.I don't think AV's shtick works with the NY media and the fan base, and I can't imagine he is a good fit in the locker room. Honestly the whole thing reminds me of what happened when the Red Sox hired Bobby Valentine as manager and we know how that is ending up.

True Blue 10-25-2013 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beef 4 lunch (Post 73220145)
No coach could win with this roster.

Not exactly true
Quote:

As the season goes on, I expect the Rangers to be active in trading undesirables and acquiring players that better fit the system and team identity.
And what is that identity?
Quote:

I am excited at the prospect of a new coach and system AND regular playing time for some young blood in the form of young guys from Hartford, high draft picks, and skilled players from trades.
Have there not been young players regularly making the team and playing meaningful minutes?

pld459666 10-25-2013 03:12 PM

AV needs time.

what we see is that we have a team that is small, slow and not very skilled.

stringing 2-3 passes together should not be something to applaud. Yet this team fails at that very simple thing game in and game out. That's not systemic, that's just pathetic.

beef 4 lunch 10-25-2013 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue (Post 73221313)
Not exactly true

And what is that identity?

Have there not been young players regularly making the team and playing meaningful minutes?

Maybe not exactly true but no one will know. I say that based on my opinion of the roster.

No idea what the identity is. But can a new coach create an identity In a month? With players that have no identity.

There have been young players but the lineup is riddled with garbage. Moore, Pyatt, Poulliot, and Boyle play too much and we will not win with em in the lineup. I want hungry guys with something to prove.

Machinehead 10-25-2013 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue (Post 73221313)
Not exactly true

Only two coaches could win with this roster: Herb Brooks and Jesus H. Christ.

They're both dead.

Shadowtron 10-25-2013 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue (Post 73221313)
Have there not been young players regularly making the team and playing meaningful minutes?

Exactly. The Callys and the Dubis were the yoots posters like you and I were smacked and told to wait for whenever we raised a criticism about the direction this GM was taking. Well...they're here and pushing 30 and we're talking a rebuild now? Time for a new GM. End of story.

SingnBluesOnBroadway 10-25-2013 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beef 4 lunch (Post 73220145)
couple thoughts on AV:

I doubt that he was hired with the expectation that this team would be successful right away. Maybe it was not expected to be THIS bad, but as I've said before, this is a terrible roster, just terrible. No coach could win with this roster.

Disagree. You don't fire a coach who has gone to the ECF and 2nd round of playoffs in consecutive years and replace him with the idea that you are going to take a step back when the roster is by and large the same. The injuries certainly hasn't helped but I don't think it's a bad roster. I'm not so sure how it fits into AV's system.

Quote:

Originally Posted by beef 4 lunch (Post 73220145)
I would expect that AV presented a plan to achieve success over a period of one or two or three years. The 1st part of this season would be dedicated to getting to know the roster and making personnel decisions. As the season goes on, I expect the Rangers to be active in trading undesirables and acquiring players that better fit the system and team identity.

The Rangers made a big-time trade to add Rick Nash who was supposed to be the final, missing piece. They had a disappointing season but still managed to make the playoffs and win a round. The GM constantly (and sometimes insanely) says that goal of the team is to win the Stanley Cup. You don't hire a coach who then gives you a 2-3 year plan. If for no other reason than that's not the way Sather operates.

Quote:

Originally Posted by beef 4 lunch (Post 73220145)
As time goes goes by, and the coach has acquired the players he wants, the bar will be raised. I would be completely shocked if he got the boot this year.....it would take a worse than last place finish.

Nope. You hire a coach who will mesh well with the current personnel. Or the coach needs to adapt to the players he has. Tortorella coached differently when he didn't have a Vincent Lecavalier, Martin St. Louis or Dan Boyle on his roster. The bar has been raised. Any thought that Glen Sather's plan was to take a step back this season is pure folly.

True Blue 10-25-2013 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machinehead (Post 73222353)
Only two coaches could win with this roster: Herb Brooks and Jesus H. Christ.

They're both dead.

Tortarella seemed to have success with a very similar roster.

True Blue 10-25-2013 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beef 4 lunch (Post 73222115)
Maybe not exactly true but no one will know. I say that based on my opinion of the roster.

What did the previous coach do with a substantially similar roster?
Quote:

No idea what the identity is. But can a new coach create an identity In a month? With players that have no identity.
An identity path can be started on and adherence to it can be enforced.
Quote:

There have been young players but the lineup is riddled with garbage. Moore, Pyatt, Poulliot, and Boyle play too much and we will not win with em in the lineup. I want hungry guys with something to prove
.
In the last 4 years, there have been more youth given meaningful minutes than in the last 25 years. Don't like Moore, Pyatt or Pouliot? Blame either Sather for signing them or AV for asking for them.

NikC 10-25-2013 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machinehead (Post 73222353)
Only two coaches could win with this roster: Herb Brooks and Jesus H. Christ.

They're both dead.

Christ Jesus is risen from the dead

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

stan the caddy 10-25-2013 04:09 PM

I don't think that management expected everything to click in the first 5 games but a coaching change was made because the old coach was supposedly holding the team back. Glen Sather based his decision on the Rangers dumping the puck in too much, lmao.

beef 4 lunch 10-25-2013 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway (Post 73222897)
Disagree. You don't fire a coach who has gone to the ECF and 2nd round of playoffs in consecutive years and replace him with the idea that you are going to take a step back when the roster is by and large the same. The injuries certainly hasn't helped but I don't think it's a bad roster. I'm not so sure how it fits into AV's system.

If there was some master plan for a new coach to take us over the hump, why trade our best scorer? Because he didn't mesh well with Torts. Torts was forced out by the players, and i dont think Sather intended on firing torts until he heard from his big players.

And this roster is bad. there are good players but overall, they are where they belong.


Quote:

Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway (Post 73222897)
The Rangers made a big-time trade to add Rick Nash who was supposed to be the final, missing piece. They had a disappointing season but still managed to make the playoffs and win a round. The GM constantly (and sometimes insanely) says that goal of the team is to win the Stanley Cup. You don't hire a coach who then gives you a 2-3 year plan. If for no other reason than that's not the way Sather operates.

Disagree. A more ridiculous suggestion is to think the Glen is simple minded enough to think that a new coach would take this roster to the Stanley Cup the first year. or the AV would be so bold as to promise that he could do that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway (Post 73222897)
Nope. You hire a coach who will mesh well with the current personnel. Or the coach needs to adapt to the players he has.Tortorella coached differently when he didn't have a Vincent Lecavalier, Martin St. Louis or Dan Boyle on his roster. The bar has been raised. Any thought that Glen Sather's plan was to take a step back this season is pure folly.

That is not why you hire a coach. Don't you expect PLAYERS to adapt to the COACH? or the coach has the authority to bring players that play a style. Glen said that the rangers were unwatchable. AV style was supposed to address that, let him get the players he needs and implement the system.

beef 4 lunch 10-25-2013 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue (Post 73223251)
What did the previous coach do with a substantially similar roster?

What did he do? he got run out of town by his players. And torts' best years here were with a very different team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue (Post 73223251)
An identity path can be started on and adherence to it can be enforced.

Not sure what you mean here.
.
Quote:

Originally Posted by True Blue (Post 73223251)
In the last 4 years, there have been more youth given meaningful minutes than in the last 25 years. Don't like Moore, Pyatt or Pouliot? Blame either Sather for signing them or AV for asking for them.

I blame Sather of course. How could you blame AV. he just got here and hasnt had a chance to adjust the roster.

SingnBluesOnBroadway 10-25-2013 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beef 4 lunch (Post 73225469)
If there was some master plan for a new coach to take us over the hump, why trade our best scorer? Because he didn't mesh well with Torts. Torts was forced out by the players, and i dont think Sather intended on firing torts until he heard from his big players.

You're using the benefit of hindsight. You're assuming there was a plan in place to replace Torts when the Gaborik trade was made.

Quote:

Originally Posted by beef 4 lunch (Post 73225469)
And this roster is bad. there are good players but overall, they are where they belong.

The roster is not full of players who are going to thrive in the current system.


Quote:

Originally Posted by beef 4 lunch (Post 73225469)
Disagree. A more ridiculous suggestion is to think the Glen is simple minded enough to think that a new coach would take this roster to the Stanley Cup the first year. or the AV would be so bold as to promise that he could do that.

Oh, there's no doubt in my mind the Sather thinks that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by beef 4 lunch (Post 73225469)
That is not why you hire a coach. Don't you expect PLAYERS to adapt to the COACH? or the coach has the authority to bring players that play a style. Glen said that the rangers were unwatchable. AV style was supposed to address that, let him get the players he needs and implement the system.

No, there are more players than coaches. It's up to the coach to get the most out his players. Players can't make themselves skate faster or score more goals. You play to your team's strengths.


And I don't care if the team was unwatchable Being watchable isn't the goal. Winning is. And truth be told this season has been some of the most unwatchable hockey I've seen.

To let AV get the players he wants and implement his system is to just keep the revolving door going. So in three years they can get another coach and start the wheel of disfunction again?

beef 4 lunch 10-25-2013 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway (Post 73225785)
You're using the benefit of hindsight. You're assuming there was a plan in place to replace Torts when the Gaborik trade was made.



The roster is not full of players who are going to thrive in the current system.




Oh, there's no doubt in my mind the Sather thinks that.



No, there are more players than coaches. It's up to the coach to get the most out his players. Players can't make themselves skate faster or score more goals. You play to your team's strengths.


And I don't care if the team was unwatchable Being watchable isn't the goal. Winning is. And truth be told this season has been some of the most unwatchable hockey I've seen.

To let AV get the players he wants and implement his system is to just keep the revolving door going. So in three years they can get another coach and start the wheel of disfunction again?

Amen. But i don't think this has anything to do with AV.

Savant 10-25-2013 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway (Post 73225785)
You're using the benefit of hindsight. You're assuming there was a plan in place to replace Torts when the Gaborik trade was made.



The roster is not full of players who are going to thrive in the current system.

On these two points, I do not believe the Gaborik trade was made with the plan to fire Torts. If anything that trade got rid of Gaborik for Torts. I think AV would have been thrilled to go into this season with Nash and Gaborik. Torts needed another year with the guys he got from Columbus, or he needed to be fired midseason before Gaborik was traded.

Also I honestly think Laviolette could win with this roster, not that Sather is going to fire AV, but this team has a lot of Laviolette friendly personnel and Laviolette is familiar with the team from being in division and from team USA.

Right now the team is just watered down and there is a major disconnect at all levels. I do think AV botched the preseason and the team is obviously out of sync. The Rangers seemed to feed off Torts' passion. AV is a gum chewing robot. To me it's just a bad fit, and I don't see it getting better.

bernmeister 10-25-2013 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NikC (Post 73223413)
Christ Jesus is risen from the dead

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Hallelujah
(optional on the chorus or the Leonard Cohen version)

I understand people are trying to figure out exactly the gospel (actually 4 recognized major ones in the New Testament which are similar w/subtle differences).

IMO, We get a partial pass there because God enlightens us all differently, so we are judged on a curve based on what we are supposed to do within the construct of what we are given.

However, notwithstanding the fact that our favorite team could use all the Divine intervention it can get, let's not get anybody --- and I mean Anybody --- pissed by being disrespectful.

Since some of us know the middle initial, ok, but let's take care beyond that.

bernmeister 10-25-2013 06:06 PM

Getting back to the subject, AVs system has a track record. It works. But it REQUIRES speed.

We have some guys with average jump, but our real speedsters are
Kreider Miller Fast
who should be playing as a line.

When returned, Hags + Cally could be 2/3s of another line.

The rest of our F guys:
keep/trade for premium assets / or upgrade: Stepan, /Brassard, Moore
not able to move for obvious reasons: Richards
guys to move if the price is right, decent value ok: Boyle, Dorsett
guys to dump for cap space: Pouilot, MZA, Pyatt

Savant 10-25-2013 06:16 PM

AV has had plenty of chances to move Fast up but he has not done so. I would love to put the kids together but AV does not share that sentiment.

OverTheCap 10-25-2013 06:32 PM

At AV's press conference, Sather said that maybe if the team stayed healthy like the Blackhawks or the Bruins, then the Rangers would have been in the finals. He did not recognize the deficiencies of the roster back then and from many of the comments made that day, it sure seems like he hired AV with the notion that this team would contend almost immediately.

beef 4 lunch 10-25-2013 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OverTheCap (Post 73229047)
At AV's press conference, Sather said that maybe if the team stayed healthy like the Blackhawks or the Bruins, then the Rangers would have been in the finals. He did not recognize the deficiencies of the roster back then and from many of the comments made that day, it sure seems like he hired AV with the notion that this team would contend almost immediately.

One of our best scorers ever was traded and our 1a center rode the bench through the playoffs and Sather thinks injuries were the problem?

Bullseyes 10-25-2013 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OverTheCap (Post 73229047)
At AV's press conference, Sather said that maybe if the team stayed healthy like the Blackhawks or the Bruins, then the Rangers would have been in the finals. He did not recognize the deficiencies of the roster back then and from many of the comments made that day, it sure seems like he hired AV with the notion that this team would contend almost immediately.

The Rangers have a lot of problems and as most probably would agree, are not close to the Blackhawks or the Bruins.

Every team deals with injuries in the playoffs.


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