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-   -   Do the Flyers win in 76 with a healthy Parent? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1524485)

Cyborg LeClair 10-26-2013 10:59 AM

Do the Flyers win in 76 with a healthy Parent?
 
Wikipedia doesnt have much information on Bernie Parent's injury problems in 76, but it limited him to 11 games in the regular season and he went 4-4 with poor numbers in the playoffs.

Having come off two historic seasons in a row, would a healthy and prime Bernie Parent have allowed the Flyers to beat the 1976 Montreal Canadiens?

Killion 10-26-2013 12:06 PM

No chance. Had they had more Reggie Leach's up-front (that was the year he scored 61G's through the Regular Season & 19G's in 16 Playoff Games) and a far more mobile defence... but even still, Montreal beyond formidable. Wayne Stephensons GAA in the Playoffs' wasnt at all shabby, a pretty solid goalie really who could be spectacular when called upon. Not in Bernies class but still.... Remember too the Flyers were pushed to 7 games against the Leafs, taking out the Bruins 4-1 before losing 4 straight to the Habs. I doubt if even a hand picked All Star Team wouldve beaten Montreal back then. They were that good.

Big Phil 10-26-2013 02:33 PM

I think come hell or high water the Habs were going to start winning Cups. This was a dynasty in the making and I just don't think the Flyers had the top shelf talent to compete at that stage with them anymore. Rick MacLeish missing the 1976 playoffs hurt as well, but even with those two, perhaps they take a couple games from Montreal, but Montreal winning was inevitable.

TheDevilMadeMe 10-26-2013 05:49 PM

The 1976 finals were a sweep

Game 1 May 9 Philadelphia Flyers 3 Montreal Canadiens 4
Game 2 May 11 Philadelphia Flyers 1 Montreal Canadiens 2
Game 3 May 13 Montreal Canadiens 3 Philadelphia Flyers 2
Game 4 May 16 Montreal Canadiens 5 Philadelphia Flyers 3

It's possible that Parent helps the Flyers win more games, but somewhat high scoring 1970s, you aren't going to win many games scoring only 1 or 2 goals.

BrimStone64 10-26-2013 06:51 PM

No team ever beats the '76 Canadiens.

Mike Farkas 10-27-2013 10:33 AM

With respect, this isn't the 'what if' in Flyers SC history. I think a closer question would be whether they win in '87 with an alive Lindbergh and that's with respect to Hextall's Conn Smythe in a losing effort in that playoffs.

reckoning 10-27-2013 10:49 AM

No. Parent missed most of the season and the Flyers record was still almost the same as the year before. The difference was the opposition in the Final. The '76 Canadiens were a much better team than the '74 Bruins or the '75 Sabres who each took the Flyers to six games. Outcoaching Bep Guidolin and Floyd Smith is one thing; doing it to Scotty Bowman is another matter.

And I can't imagine Pelle Lindbergh playing any better in '87 than Hextall did, so I'd vote no to that as well.

Beef Invictus 10-27-2013 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Farkas (Post 73320383)
With respect, this isn't the 'what if' in Flyers SC history. I think a closer question would be whether they win in '87 with an alive Lindbergh and that's with respect to Hextall's Conn Smythe in a losing effort in that playoffs.

I think the more recent "do they win in 2010 if Emery's hip doesn't die?" is the bigger what-if.

Cyborg LeClair 10-27-2013 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beef Invictus (Post 73329629)
I think the more recent "do they win in 2010 if Emery's hip doesn't die?" is the bigger what-if.

Or even "What if we had our best goal scorer in 87 (and 85), Tim Kerr"

ted1971 10-27-2013 07:20 PM

Flyers had no shot beating the 76 Habs with or without Bernie.

ted1971 10-27-2013 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beef Invictus (Post 73329629)
I think the more recent "do they win in 2010 if Emery's hip doesn't die?" is the bigger what-if.

With Emery in net the Flyers win the cup in 5 games.

ted1971 10-27-2013 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beef Invictus (Post 73329629)
I think the more recent "do they win in 2010 if Emery's hip doesn't die?" is the bigger what-if.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Farkas (Post 73320383)
With respect, this isn't the 'what if' in Flyers SC history. I think a closer question would be whether they win in '87 with an alive Lindbergh and that's with respect to Hextall's Conn Smythe in a losing effort in that playoffs.


That's a tough one. That Flyer team had the never give up and die attitude. They needed some more scoring to win the 87 series.

Sadekuuro 10-27-2013 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ted1971 (Post 73345823)
Flyers had no shot beating the 76 Habs with or without Bernie.

I never saw the '76 Finals and can't comment authoritatively or anything, but they did lose three one-goal games, which suggests that terrific goaltending could definitely have made a difference. No?

Mike Farkas 10-27-2013 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beef Invictus (Post 73329629)
I think the more recent "do they win in 2010 if Emery's hip doesn't die?" is the bigger what-if.

Perhaps. Emery is nothing more than a substandard goalie himself, lackluster lateral movement - on that front, not too dissimilar to that of minor leaguer Michael Leighton. Slight upgrade in net in Emery, but I'm not sure if it would have been enough. Both with poor lateral movement and rebound control. That said, he probably doesn't give up some of the leaky first-shot goals that Leighton surrendered including the golden goal.

Devonator 10-27-2013 08:13 PM

Not only was Bernie out, the Flyers most valuable player but also Rick Macliesh...and yes if they had had those 2 players, I think they likely would have beat the habs...as it was, 3 of those games were 1 goal losses....and the other was a 2 goal loss if memory serves.....

Amazing it was that close in each game without those 2 guys...

GKJ 10-27-2013 08:31 PM

In the 80s, the bigger question for the Flyers was more missing Tim Kerr than the goaltending. They lost Kerr halfway through the 85 finals (he wasn't healthy anyways), and didn't have him at all vs. the Oilers in 87. They Flyers, already undermanned, were without their 50 goal scorer.

The question mark around Lindbergh would qualify more in the long-term picture. Do the Flyers still fall off the cliff in the early 90s if they still had Lindbergh?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Farkas (Post 73348611)
Perhaps. Emery is nothing more than a substandard goalie himself, lackluster lateral movement - on that front, not too dissimilar to that of minor leaguer Michael Leighton. Slight upgrade in net in Emery, but I'm not sure if it would have been enough. Both with poor lateral movement and rebound control. That said, he probably doesn't give up some of the leaky first-shot goals that Leighton surrendered including the golden goal.

I've been through this argument a number of times, but I maintain that the Flyers could have gotten Dwayne Roloson and didn't pull the trigger, and made it look worse when they sniffed around other goaltenders, and traded Ryan Parent for the rights to Dan Hamhuis, and were lucky to get a draft pick for him. The rumor was 2nd round pick, we had Ryan Parent and a 3rd to give. Leighton was playing well, but the Flyers needed the insurance because that season was Cup or bust despite struggling to make the playoffs (and before that comment starts a war, just look at the turmoil the franchise has been through since then). They dispatched the Devils, but I don't think they would have gotten so far behind the Bruins. Alas, that series did turn out to be one of our golden moments as a franchise, but its still a consolation prize.

I think it was the difference because it's not like Blackhawks boat raced the Flyers. The Flyers were rolling 4 defensemen in front of a replacement-level goaltender and found themselves in overtime of Game 6. They scored at least 3 goals in 5 of the 6 games, and lost 4 of them. In any other year, with a goaltender who is above replacement-level, that gets the job done.

Clown Baby 10-27-2013 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Farkas (Post 73320383)
With respect, this isn't the 'what if' in Flyers SC history. I think a closer question would be whether they win in '87 with an alive Lindbergh and that's with respect to Hextall's Conn Smythe in a losing effort in that playoffs.

With all due respect, Hextall was one of four goaltenders with a .900 save percentage or higher in '87, while appearing in ten+ games. To think Lindbergh's career high .914 makes any significant difference... it's not even worth the bandwidth. There's just not that big of a gap.

In '76, the Flyers were forced to dress Wayne Stephenson, whose .904 post-season career high pales in comparison to Parent's .933 (to say nothing of his .922 Conn Smythe-worthy performance the year prior). And, as others have already pointed out, that's without mention of Rick MacLeish who led the Flyers in post-season scoring both '74 and '75 (by a minimum of 20%).

With three out of the four games decided by a lone goal, that's a pretty significant edge in favor the Canadiens. Wouldn't you agree?

LeBlondeDemon10 10-27-2013 11:34 PM

You can add goals with MaCleish or subtract goals with Parent, but there is a factor that has not yet been mentioned. That is that some teams are destined to win at some point. The 76 Canadiens were developed from 1971 to become champions at some point in the 70's and whether it was 76 or 77 it doesn't matter. They had all the tools to defeat the Flyers with a full roster. Similarly, had the 84 Islanders not played 5 grueling games against their rival Rangers and then get a scare from the Canadiens in the semi's, would they have had the strength to overcome the Oiler's in the SCF? I highly doubt it. There comes a time when the torch will be passed.

BrimStone64 10-28-2013 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Devonator (Post 73349687)
Not only was Bernie out, the Flyers most valuable player but also Rick Macliesh...and yes if they had had those 2 players, I think they likely would have beat the habs...as it was, 3 of those games were 1 goal losses....and the other was a 2 goal loss if memory serves.....

Amazing it was that close in each game without those 2 guys...

Habs were toying with them in that series though....remember Clarke's famous saying...."how can we beat them if we can't catch them?"

VMBM 10-28-2013 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 (Post 73368539)
You can add goals with MaCleish or subtract goals with Parent

No you can't :naughty:

Rhiessan71 10-28-2013 07:21 AM

Any chance for the Flyer's to beat the Habs by this point disappeared on Febuary 17th 1974.

It was just a matter of time. Once the Habs put all the pieces together by '76, the Flyer's, minus the intimidation factor, were severely outclassed.

BraveCanadian 10-28-2013 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Farkas (Post 73320383)
With respect, this isn't the 'what if' in Flyers SC history. I think a closer question would be whether they win in '87 with an alive Lindbergh and that's with respect to Hextall's Conn Smythe in a losing effort in that playoffs.

I don't think so.

Hextall didn't leave a lot of room for improvement.

He played amazingly well.

Beef Invictus 10-28-2013 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Farkas (Post 73348611)
Perhaps. Emery is nothing more than a substandard goalie himself, lackluster lateral movement - on that front, not too dissimilar to that of minor leaguer Michael Leighton. Slight upgrade in net in Emery, but I'm not sure if it would have been enough. Both with poor lateral movement and rebound control. That said, he probably doesn't give up some of the leaky first-shot goals that Leighton surrendered including the golden goal.

Emery is now a substandard goalie with bad lateral movement, but in 2009-10 before his hip started going down in November he was pretty quick and athletic; his transformation into a slow positional guy came after the hip injury. He played very well until the injury affected him and dragged his stats down; he played for something like 1.5-2 months hindered by that hip until he was no longer capable of playing.

Leighton by that point wasn't even an NHL-caliber backup, which Emery is even now with diminished abilities. Leighton was shielded by some very good defensive play...the Flyers played like they didn't have a goalie, because they essentially didn't. Any shot that made Leighton move a limb to stop it was generally going in the net, so the team had to desperately keep scoring chances to the perimeter to let Leighton shuffle himself into position to let the puck hit him. It was really horrifying to watch game after game and the only thing more horrifying was Homer signing him for 2 years in the offseason, having somehow watched the same spectacle and deciding "this is perfectly sustainable for multiple years!"

Killion 10-28-2013 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 (Post 73377761)
Any chance for the Flyer's to beat the Habs by this point disappeared on Febuary 17th 1974.

You know your stuff & fights Rhiessan. To save others looking it up, that was the night Larry Robinson pretty much put an end to the over-inflated scary monster reputation of one Dave The Hammer Schultz.... absolutely cleaned his clock.

Mike Farkas 10-28-2013 01:25 PM

Didn't a young Clark Gillies fill him in too around that time? Maybe in '75?


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