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-   -   Round 2, Vote 5 (HOH Top Centers) (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1548433)

Hawkey Town 18 11-29-2013 01:04 AM

Round 2, Vote 5 (HOH Top Centers)
 
IMPORTANT NOTE: Post 2 of every voting thread will contain instructions as to who to send your votes to. If you send your votes to the wrong person, we can't guarantee that they will be counted.

MOD: This is a strictly on-topic thread. Posts that don't focus on the centers listed in Post 2 will be deleted or moved at the discretion of the moderators. This will be strictly enforced in every Round 2 voting thread, regardless of who the OP is - TDMM

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2
  • The top 8-10 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
  • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
  • Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of at least five (5) days. Administrators may extend the discussion period if it remains active
  • Final voting will occur for two (2) days, via PM. Everyone ranks their top 8 players.
  • Top 4 players will be added to the list
  • Final results will be posted and the process repeated for the next 4 places with remaining players until a list of 60 centers is obtained
  • After Vote 5 (THIS ROUND), we may increase the number of players added per round to 5. Participants will be allowed to vote on whether to increase the number added per round to 5 or to stay at 4 per round
  • If there are major breaks in the Round 2 voting totals, we may add more or less than the targeted 4 or 5 players in certain rounds
  • The number of players available for discussion at once will increase from 8 as we move down the list, based on natural breaks in the aggregate list put together in Round 1

These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:
  • Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
  • Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
  • Please treat other debaters with respect
  • Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
  • Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (23):
bigbuffalo313; BillyShoe1721; Canadiens1958; DaveG; Dennis Bonvie; hardyvan123; Hawkey Town 18; intylerwetrust; Jigglysquishy; MadArcand; Mike Farkas; MXD; reckoning; Rob Scuderi; seventieslord; Sturminator; tarheelhockey; ted1971; the edler; TheDevilMadeMe; tony D; VanIslander; vecens24

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes.

Hawkey Town 18 11-29-2013 01:09 AM

Vote 4 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Friday, December 6th at 10 PM EST. You may PM votes to Hawkey Town 18 starting on Thursday, December 5th. There is also an optional procedural vote this round - see post 6 - PM your procedural vote to TheDevilMadeMe.

We will be sending out confirmations when we receive ballots from the voters. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume we never received it and should either resubmit it or contact the person collecting ballots to arrange a different method to submit the ballots.

Vote 4 will be for places 17 through 20 on the Top 60 list.

There are 9 eligible candidates for Vote 4. You will still only rank your Top 8 when voting.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Max Bentley
Sidney Crosby
Marcel Dionne
Sergei Fedorov
Peter Forsberg
Ted Kennedy
Joe Malone
Henri Richard
Milt Schmidt

Hawkey Town 18 11-29-2013 01:24 AM

The Pocket Rocket is an easy 1st for me here, and Max Bentley a fairly easy last...the rest are pretty up in the air for now.

Hardyvan123 11-29-2013 01:24 AM

Very surprised there is still only 1 European eligible.

Does anyone touch Sid with best player in the world (or in the mix) for a longer period of time?

Hawkey Town 18 11-29-2013 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 (Post 75199507)
Very surprised there is still only 1 European eligible.

2: Forsberg and Fedorov

TheDevilMadeMe 11-29-2013 01:26 AM

MOD: Hopefully this warning in unnecessary, but I feel like it's better safe than sorry, considering the players who are available this round. Two things:

1) The purpose of this thread is to help us rank the players in post 2. Anyone who uses the thread for any other purpose will be removed from the thread.
2) Anyone who is incapable of having this conversation in a civil manner will also be removed from the thread.

Carry on.


Remember, this round, there is an additional vote on procedure

1. You can vote on whether you wish to continue adding 4 players per round, or if you want to increase the number of adds per round to 5. The majority of votes received wins.

2. Let us know if you would like to continue having 8-10 candidates per round for a little while longer or if you'd like to expand the candidate pool sooner rather than later. This vote is non-binding, but we will take what you all want into account.

Hardyvan123 11-29-2013 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 (Post 75199505)
The Pocket Rocket is an easy 1st for me here, and Max Bentley a fairly easy last, but the rest are pretty up in the air.

I'm a career guy and Henri isn't a lock for first with me, outside of his prime his career takes a back seat to some others here.

Bentley is likely last for me , really surprised to see him up so early actually.

Bentley only has 5 top 10 finishes, same as Sid and both are still ahead of Schmidt in that metric and others.

TheDevilMadeMe 11-29-2013 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 (Post 75199505)
The Pocket Rocket is an easy 1st for me here, and Max Bentley a fairly easy last...the rest are pretty up in the air for now.

Likewise Richard #1 for me - I see him as something of a more consistent Milt Schmidt. I had Henri and Schmidt very close heading into this project, but now am much more impressed by Henri.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 (Post 75199737)
I'm a career guy and Henri isn't a lock for first with me, outside of his prime his career takes a back seat to some others here.

Bentley is likely last for me , really surprised to see him up so early actually.

Bentley only has 5 top 10 finishes, same as Sid and both are still ahead of Schmidt in that metric and others.

IMO, Henri is easily #1 among the "career" guys who are left. I don't know what more you can ask - arguably the best even strength player in the world for the first 12 years of his career, was a key part of a Stanley Cup in the 18th year of his career when he outplayed Bobby Clarke head to head, then won the Bill Masterdon Trophy in the 19th year of his career.

The only guys I can see with a case to go ahead of him are Crosby and Forsberg and their cases are pure peak.

seventieslord 11-29-2013 01:43 AM

I look forward to a comprehensive comparison of Kennedy and Schmidt. Two more similar players are rarely seen, yet, canon has Schmidt solidly ahead. Why?

TheDevilMadeMe 11-29-2013 01:43 AM

My first thoughts - Henri #1.

I'm going to give Forsberg and Crosby serious looks here. Now that Lalonde and Apps are in, is there a center other than those two with a case as best player in the world for an extended period of time? I realize that lack of career value and the inability to string together consecutive elite seasons due to injuries are downsides to both players.

I think one of the three 40s guys should probably go this round. Canon says Schmidt. I plan on focusing mostly on a comparison of Schmidt vs Kennedy vs Bentley this round to see if canon holds up.

Dionne continues to be the clear cut worst playoff player to come up so far, and now Fedorov is the clear cut worst regular season player to come up.

seventieslord 11-29-2013 01:46 AM

Richard will be an easy #1, and it appears that the Forsberg/Dionne/Schmidt trio will be tough to unseat, and Malone is best compared to the guys added to this round's discussion (he is highly unlikely to challenge those 4) But who can challenge those 4? Who jumps out off the bat?

I'd have to say Kennedy since he compares so well to Schmidt, and Crosby since his higher peak (his whole career, basically) could arguably outweigh Forsberg's longer career. Both are decidedly better than Fedorov, and Bentley is pretty meh.

TheDevilMadeMe 11-29-2013 01:50 AM

I think I had Bentley and Dionne back to back on my submitted list, but then I'm probably lower on Dionne than most here.

This recent thread on Crosby vs Forsberg left me convinced that the two should be ranked very close together: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1487757

But I'm open to being unconvinced.

MadArcand 11-29-2013 03:08 AM

Schmidt, Richard definitely in, then a bunch of 5 I'm not decided on exact order.

Do we have to vote for 8 guys? Guess I'll have to sully my hands with a vote for Forsberg then, as Crosby being up for the vote is an absolute joke.

the edler 11-29-2013 03:18 AM

Nice to see Fedorov in despite his offensive DPE numbers. The guy could play. So talented at both sides of the table. People like to complain about Malkin's consistency today, but think about how Malkin's numbers would look if he had to play defense all the time as a second fiddle center on a Bowman team. And even though Fedorov didn't lit it up offensively in he regular seasons a la Selänne I think he showed what he could do there from 93–96. Also had 10 seasons with 30 or more goals. But I agree his 97–02 numbers, 63–63–62–69–68, doesn't look like the numbers of a world beater. Anyone know why he was suddenly back as a PPG player in 02–03? Was it only a matter of effort or did he get a different kind of role or new linemates? Or did he showcase himself for a potential trade? ;)

MXD 11-29-2013 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 (Post 75199179)
Vote 4 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Friday, December 6th at 10 PM EST. You may PM votes to Hawkey Town 18 starting on Thursday, December 5th. There is also an optional procedural vote this round - see post 6 - PM your procedural vote to TheDevilMadeMe.

We will be sending out confirmations when we receive ballots from the voters. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume we never received it and should either resubmit it or contact the person collecting ballots to arrange a different method to submit the ballots.

Vote 4 will be for places 17 through 20 on the Top 60 list.

There are 9 eligible candidates for Vote 4. You will still only rank your Top 8 when voting.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Max Bentley
Sidney Crosby
Marcel Dionne
Sergei Fedorov
Peter Forsberg
Ted Kennedy
Joe Malone
Henri Richard
Milt Schmidt

At first glance, the first four newcomers start at the bottom of the list, save maybe with Crosby which I actually see as a very close call with Malone.

MXD 11-29-2013 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 75199937)
My first thoughts - Henri #1.

I'm going to give Forsberg and Crosby serious looks here. Now that Lalonde and Apps are in, is there a center other than those two with a case as best player in the world for an extended period of time?

... I think I missed something about Forsberg having such a case. Best center? Certainly. But player...?

Hardyvan123 11-29-2013 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 (Post 75199531)
2: Forsberg and Fedorov


My bad, that's what happens when I stay up too late drinking...lol

BraveCanadian 11-29-2013 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the edler (Post 75201019)
Anyone know why he was suddenly back as a PPG player in 02–03? Was it only a matter of effort or did he get a different kind of role or new linemates? Or did he showcase himself for a potential trade? ;)

Contract year?

Based on talent Fedorov certainly belongs here but on accomplishment.. geez.. awfully slim outside playoffs on stacked clubs.


The interesting thing for me this round will be seeing how people compare two players like Forsberg and Crosby.

Crosby has an even smaller amount of GP but even better PPG rates compared to his peers. And more traditional Top 10s as well.

Dom 11-29-2013 09:17 AM

I'm curious to see what made Stastny drop from above Forsberg in the 2008 top 100 to him appearing at least two rounds later. Probably more time digesting Forsberg's work because he played 2 games since then.

Hardyvan123 11-29-2013 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadArcand (Post 75200967)
Schmidt, Richard definitely in, then a bunch of 5 I'm not decided on exact order.

I see the case for Henri but is anyone made the case for Schmidt being a lock here?

Other than some implied reference as to his standing in the ATD, his case hasn't been made very well.

Fedorov's regular season isn't as bad as it looks and he is arguably the best playoff performer here along with Forsberg and perhaps Richard.


Quote:

Do we have to vote for 8 guys? Guess I'll have to sully my hands with a vote for Forsberg then, as Crosby being up for the vote is an absolute joke.
How would you be sullying your hands with Forsberg and how can Crosby be a joke, his peak, prime, career is simply outstanding....period.

People will make the case for both this round but judging by your comments is it worth the effort?

Perhaps looking at everyone's case and setting aside preconceptions will help, how hard is it to rank 8 guys really?

Hardyvan123 11-29-2013 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom (Post 75203803)
I'm curious to see what made Stastny drop from above Forsberg in the 2008 top 100 to him appearing at least two rounds later. Probably more time digesting Forsberg's work because he played 2 games since then.

I think 2 thing can be made fo Forsberg's case, well 3 actually

1) In the mix for best player in the world for a period of time, ie higher yearly ranking than Peter

2) Better playoff performer, Peter is arguably in the 5-10 range all time for centers.

3) Better ES play, or more impact on the ice.

MadArcand 11-29-2013 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 (Post 75203873)
How would you be sullying your hands with Forsberg and how can Crosby be a joke, his peak, prime, career is simply outstanding....period.

Peak, yes. Prime, maybe, if you consider prime to be <4 seasons. But career, hell no. I'm certainly far more of a career than peak guy, and any faults Forsberg has in career regard (due to his injuries), Crosby has tenfold. Unlike Crosby, Forsberg actually has a case to be up for vote now.

BraveCanadian 11-29-2013 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadArcand (Post 75204221)
Peak, yes. Prime, maybe, if you consider prime to be <4 seasons. But career, hell no. I'm certainly far more of a career than peak guy, and any faults Forsberg has in career regard (due to his injuries), Crosby has tenfold. Unlike Crosby, Forsberg actually has a case to be up for vote now.

Based on the criteria that people are using to prop up Forsberg, Crosby has even more of a case. (ie. all those PPG arguments)

The only con is he did it in even fewer actual games.

Crosby is the same case as Forsberg amplified even more both on the pro and con side.

Hardyvan123 11-29-2013 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BraveCanadian (Post 75203703)
Contract year?

Based on talent Fedorov certainly belongs here but on accomplishment.. geez.. awfully slim outside playoffs on stacked clubs.


The interesting thing for me this round will be seeing how people compare two players like Forsberg and Crosby.

Crosby has an even smaller amount of GP but even better PPG rates compared to his peers. And more traditional Top 10s as well.

Dave Lewis also became the coach and Feds had a more expanded offensive role than under Scotty, along with Yzerman only playing in 16 games that year down from his larger role in 52 GP the year before.

Simply looking at Feds top 10 finishes, or counting stats, doesn't tell the complete story here on how good Feds was as a player.

BraveCanadian 11-29-2013 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 (Post 75204353)
Simply looking at Feds top 10 finishes, or counting stats, doesn't tell the complete story here on how good Feds was as a player.

I saw his whole NHL career so I know exactly what he was capable of as a player.

My issue is how rarely he decided to show it.


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