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-   -   Can Nolan resurrect Leino? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1548551)

joshjull 11-29-2013 10:01 AM

Can Nolan resurrect Leino?
 
Leino has been playing pretty well under Nolan. If Nolan can get him to continue this level of play or better does that change anyone's mind about using a compliance buyout on him in the offseason?


I ask because we will still need stop gap vets for the next year or so. If Leino can fill the bill as a top 6 or top 9 center. It would help take some pressure of the young centers in the system. It would also allow the team to keep players on the wing that should be there.

One of many things about Rolston that drove me crazy was his insistence on forcing young players into the center position. Particularly ones that belonged on the wing and tracked out down the line as wingers. He also had no plan for how to deploy his lines. Rolston should have been using stop gap vets in the roles that were open not forcing kids out of position. With Nolan using Leino at center its allowed Grigs to be sheltered behind two straight forward top 6 lines with centers that will be tasked with the heavy lifting (Hogdson/Leino). Its also allowed Ennis and Foligno to go back to the wing.


I know keeping Leino is verboten with many on here. But we will still need vets on the team and we need centers as well. We really don't have any potential NHL ready centers coming up next season beyond Larsson. Counting on Grigs as one of the top 9 centers next year is still a dicey proposition even with his improved play under Nolan. Leino's contract really isn't that bad if viewed in the light of this new role. As in 4.5mil for a stop gap top 6/9 center so the kids can develop in their proper slots. We really wouldn't be able to sign a player like that for much less.

Granted the idea of keeping Leino assumes he will continue to play as he has under Nolan for the rest of the season. So I realize its premature to assume he will. But lets assume it anyway for the purposes of this discussion :laugh:


Thoughts

Revelate 11-29-2013 10:21 AM

I get your point and agree we need a veteran center as a buffer for our younger guys. However, I can't fathom not using our one chance to rid us of Leino's contract. I think there is a real possibility that he rebounds slightly under Nolan, but he has been incredibly injury prone. If it wasn't for the injuries, I'd entertain it.

Afino 11-29-2013 10:22 AM

If we're planning on a full long-term rebuild, we may need high cap hit players like Leino just to hit the floor.

I honestly don't have a problem with him being on the team as long as he's not taking a spot from a younger player. Which at this point isn't a concern for reasons you stated.

Keep him on through 2015 at least if the tank's going to take at least that long. Then at that point it's only two more years left on the deal and a smaller buy out cost. Or maybe he'll actually have trade value at that point.


To me, getting something, ANYTHING out of the sunk cost of Leino is worth trying right now.

CraniumCram 11-29-2013 10:23 AM

I've always thought Leino got a little too much flack around here. He got paid beyond his capabilities, and then succumbed to injuries. I think he can be productive in the right spots, and maybe he can do that if he becomes dedicated to playing center. The one thing I always notice is that he can extend possession and protect the puck in the O-zone, giving more time for others to setup, which could work if he has some decent linemates, not Ott and D'agostini.

I don't think we're in a position to buyout a veteran like him on a team like this.

joshjull 11-29-2013 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CraniumCram (Post 75205413)
I've always thought Leino got a little too much flack around here. He got paid beyond his capabilities, and then succumbed to injuries. I think he can be productive in the right spots, and maybe he can do that if he becomes dedicated to playing center. The one thing I always notice is that he can extend possession and protect the puck in the O-zone, giving more time for others to setup, which could work if he has some decent linemates, not Ott and D'agostini.

I don't think we're in a position to buyout a veteran like him on a team like this.

To that point we only have two vet forwards signed for next season (Leino and Stafford) and possibly a 3rd if Kaleta is back.

jvirk 11-29-2013 10:41 AM

i do understand your points though and also thought of this..but at the end of the day you still use the buyout..he's overpaid ridiculously AND he's extremely injury prone

Afino 11-29-2013 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jvirk (Post 75205941)
i do understand your points though and also thought of this..but at the end of the day you still use the buyout..he's overpaid ridiculously AND he's extremely injury prone

but again - we may actually have cap FLOOR issues. If you're going to pay someone, pay a guy who's already on the roster and have a chance to "resurrect" something out of him.

Prospector74 11-29-2013 11:08 AM

Great OP. Very logical presentation.

WRT Leino, I'd say wait and see how the rest of the season plays out and then decide. I have liked what I've seen of Leino under Nolan but there are still a lot of games to evaluate him. Good, thought provoking thread but I'd like to see another ~60 games out of him before passing judgment on whether or not to buy him out.

Chainshot 11-29-2013 11:11 AM

I have no issue if Leino can return to being an NHL-level player under Nolan. He's shown well since Ted took over and his line has actually been in possession of the puck more in the offensive zone than I recall just about any other line over the course of the entire year. If his rebound continues, he's a usable player who helps them hit the cap floor.

BloFan4Life 11-29-2013 11:27 AM

He is paid to put up points, he has 3 points in 14 games.

Buy out, next question.

La Cosa Nostra 11-29-2013 11:56 AM

NO. Use a CBO and get this overpaid garbage bum out of here. I am sick of him skating with one hand on his stick doing nothing. He sucks defensively and has no offense whatsoever. Call him Ville Lein because there is no O to him.

JLewyB 11-29-2013 11:59 AM

he's definitely become useful. I don't see his value becoming greater than a 2nd and some change at any point during his contract though. So It's not worth the potential anchor his contract becomes 3 years from now. I say buy him out and hope to use the space needed to hit the floor on vet rentals who can be worth something at the deadline.

Girgenburger 11-29-2013 12:06 PM

I think Leino is going to trick us and finish strong this year. Still don't want him. Please, (insert GM name here)...buy him and Stafford out. Make a few creative trades and replace them with younger and more consistent scoring threats.

dire wolf 11-29-2013 12:06 PM

He's played well enough under Nolan to keep around. I haven't actually added up any numbers yet, but my sense is that the cap floor is a real issue. If we buy him out, we'll probably have to over-pay another UFA - if we can sign one. If he keeps up his play, I'd keep him.

tsujimoto74 11-29-2013 12:24 PM

I'm sure we can find more affordable stop gaps. Leino still needs to play his way into staying. This is our last summer to use those CBOs, and I'd hate to see his contract get in the way of resigning our RFAs when the time comes.

BloFan4Life 11-29-2013 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dire wolf (Post 75208899)
He's played well enough under Nolan to keep around. I haven't actually added up any numbers yet, but my sense is that the cap floor is a real issue. If we buy him out, we'll probably have to over-pay another UFA - if we can sign one. If he keeps up his play, I'd keep him.

The cap floor excuse is lame and so uneducated. No GM is going to keep Leino around for 4 years to hit the cap floor for one. You overpay a veteran and then sell him off at the deadline for picks. Pretty simple.

ZZamboni 11-29-2013 12:38 PM

I have been patient and didn't over react after his first year here. Many wanted him gone then. I wanted to see what year two looked like. I also wanted to see how year three was shaping up to be like for him.

Well, all things considered and options weighed, I came to the conclusion recently, I would like Leino to be bought out.

Kyndig86 11-29-2013 12:58 PM

Hes been hitting the post on nearly every shot he takes....sadly thats a compliment lately. :laugh:

Leino has improved under Nolan, hes been upgraded from a turd sandwich to a waste of space. Get rid of him asap.

Afino 11-29-2013 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BloFan4Life (Post 75209891)
The cap floor excuse is lame and so uneducated. No GM is going to keep Leino around for 4 years to hit the cap floor for one. You overpay a veteran and then sell him off at the deadline for picks. Pretty simple.

So, regardless of a owner who is willing to pay it....you buy out Leino, replace him with ANOTHER overpaid veteran, and shell out untold millions of Pegulabucks that he wouldn't otherwise have to spend.

Tell Terry that and let me know how that goes.

Myllz 11-29-2013 01:35 PM

Even if he can be revived under Nolan, I have my doubts that he'd continue to play well under whatever new coach would be brought in. A revival doesn't mean much if it's not guaranteed he'll continue to be a functional player under the permanent coach. Too much risk involved there, so I'd buy him out either way.

dire wolf 11-29-2013 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BloFan4Life (Post 75209891)
The cap floor excuse is lame and so uneducated. No GM is going to keep Leino around for 4 years to hit the cap floor for one. You overpay a veteran and then sell him off at the deadline for picks. Pretty simple.

Assuming the cap floor is only an issue next year, then you only have 2 more years of Leino after that, which isn't much. They still need bodies for the next couple of years to fill the roster anyway. I don't think you can make a decision on Leino until the end of the year. All I'm saying is that if he is able to keep up his recent play for the rest of the year, then you keep him. If he goes back to suck mode, then you buy him out. Pretty simple.

jvirk 11-29-2013 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BloFan4Life (Post 75209891)
The cap floor excuse is lame and so uneducated. No GM is going to keep Leino around for 4 years to hit the cap floor for one. You overpay a veteran and then sell him off at the deadline for picks. Pretty simple.

exactly...if he had just a couple years on his deal that would of been fine to keep him around. i think it's better to overpay a veteran OR since we may have an issue hitting the cap floor we could take a cap dump back in a trade..just another option to think about

joshjull 11-29-2013 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BloFan4Life (Post 75209891)
The cap floor excuse is lame and so uneducated.

What is uneducated is ranting without a very good grasp of the economics.

For starters next season we currently have 11 players counting against the cap at a roughly 30mil cap hit. Thats with Leino. That puts us roughly 20mil below the cap floor and about 38mil below the likely upper limit. So next season we will need Leino's deal to help get over the lower limit as well as signing other vets.

After next season the massive Roger's TV deal will start impacting the cap. Early projections have the cap lower and upper limits as 55.7mil/74.8mil for the 15-16 season. Meaning Leino's deal will not be an issue in its last two years barring a massive free agent spree. We will have a ton of cap space.

Quote:

No GM is going to keep Leino around for 4 years to hit the cap floor for one.
He wouldn't have to keep him around for 4 years since Leino has 3 years left on his contract not 4.

Quote:

You overpay a veteran and then sell him off at the deadline for picks. Pretty simple.
Who exactly are these awesome vets that we can sign? Vets that will garner picks (plural) at the deadline and will be kind enough to sign for just one season so we can trade them at the deadline.

Zman5778 11-29-2013 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshjull (Post 75224687)
So next season we will need Leino's deal to help get over the lower limit as well as signing other vets.

Buffalo signs C Matt Stajan to a 2 year, $9 million deal.

Can't wait to see the reaction to these types of deals.



Leino's contract is necessary to get to the floor for the next two years (ie THROUGH the 15/16 season...coincidentally, when Grigorenko, Pysyk and Larsson will need new deals). Then he'll have one year to go on his contract when a whole slew of people will need new deals (Risto, Zads, Armia, Cat, Girgs).

For that one year where we might be competing for a possible playoff spot.....that $4.5 mil deal won't be hurting us against the cap.


I think Leino's a Sabre for his contract, unless his play slides to completely unacceptable levels.

joshjull 11-29-2013 04:51 PM

Keep this in mind. I'm coming at this from an assumption.

That assumption being that Leino can continue the level of play we've seen from him under Nolan. Maybe even build on it. If he can't and flames out again as the season moves along. Then my argument is moot. As dire wolf said we need to wait until the season ends to know.


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