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-   -   Sather - AV Disconnect (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1558197)

rdhstlr23 12-10-2013 09:54 PM

Sather - AV Disconnect
 
In AV's press conference he said he wants to play a more offensive style of hockey, but he doesn't have the personnel.

How much more damning to Sather can that be?

We hire an offensive style coach but we don't have the players to run the system. Or we can't bring in players that fit the system.

Clearly there is an issue of accountability here and it sounds like AV fired the first shots at Sather.

slipknottin 12-10-2013 09:57 PM

Just means Sather will fire AV in another year or two and say the system didn't work

Fact is they don't have the players to run any system well

And it's not like they have loaded prospects coming up either. The wolfpack are even worse than the rangers

Mikos87 12-10-2013 10:02 PM

AV and Arnie clearly see that the personnel can't play thus system. So why not go back to what worked? Cause AV & Arnie didn't think of it?

Seriously don't think that this coaching staff wants to coach the guys on the team.

In management you manage what you have, and AV & Arnie clearly are looking the other way.

RangersHank* 12-10-2013 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikos87 (Post 75949097)
AV and Arnie clearly see that the personnel can't play thus system. So why not go back to what worked? Cause AV & Arnie didn't think of it?

Seriously don't think that this coaching staff wants to coach the guys on the team.

In management you manage what you have, and AV & Arnie clearly are looking the other way.


What? So you wanna go back to dump and chase hockey? We tried that remember? Time to clear the roster and bring in some skill. Enough of this already

TrueBlue9 12-10-2013 10:04 PM

Sather bought into Torts' system of grinders, defense first, jam guys. You can't just flip a team overnight. It took years to weed guys out and shape the team entirely to Torts' likening. The most perfect example is trading Gaborik for depth and spare parts. An AV team would be better off with Gaborik and Nash, but that ship has sailed. To get the personnel reversed to AV's standards (offense first, high tempo) will also take years. And like someone else said there is nothing significant waiting in the farm.

slipknottin 12-10-2013 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikos87 (Post 75949097)
AV and Arnie clearly see that the personnel can't play thus system. So why not go back to what worked? Cause AV & Arnie didn't think of it?

Seriously don't think that this coaching staff wants to coach the guys on the team.

In management you manage what you have, and AV & Arnie clearly are looking the other way.

There is no "other way". The players that made Torts system work are no longer here.

When Dubinsky, Prust, Fedetenko, and Anisimov are adequately replaced then we can talk system change.

But you are just not going to field a capable bottom 6 with the guys they have now. None of them with the exception of Dorsett play on the boards, can skate, have the intensity, and can play defensively.

Crease 12-10-2013 10:14 PM

You don't hire a math teacher to teach social studies. Coaches have specialties. AV's is offense. Please don't ask him to run a defensive system. Do your job Sather.

Mikos87 12-10-2013 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slipknottin (Post 75949471)
There is no "other way". The players that made Torts system work are no longer here.

When Dubinsky, Prust, Fedetenko, and Anisimov are adequately replaced then we can talk system change.

But you are just not going to field a capable bottom 6 with the guys they have now. None of them with the exception of Dorsett play on the boards, can skate, have the intensity, and can play defensively.

No they are being asked to skate it into the zone when the roster doesn't have elite talent that can do that. Add to that the lack of toughness and compete, you have a euro-league offense upfront kept up at .500 by elite goaltending and a competent defense core.

HatTrick Swayze 12-10-2013 10:19 PM

Torts' mantra coming in was "safe is death". Contrary to popular belief, he did not suffer from a split personality disorder. Wanting to implement a system and being able to are two different things. Given that overhauling a roster is an extremely complex process that takes time and involves waste (new system = devalued assets = waste when selling) it is often much easier to adjust tactics in the short term. Unless the team has visions of completely pissing this year down the drain. Then by all means, square peg meet round hole.

By the time Sater switches the roster over in a few years I'm sure AV will be on his last legs anyway. Case in point why the lack of leadership and any type of long term plan is the real problem.

Mikos87 12-10-2013 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze (Post 75950683)
Torts' mantra coming in was "safe is death". Contrary to popular belief, he did not suffer from a split personality disorder. Wanting to implement a system and being able to are two different things. Given that overhauling a roster is an extremely complex process that takes time and involves waste (new system = devalued assets = waste when selling) it is often much easier to adjust tactics in the short term. Unless the team has visions of completely pissing this year down the drain. Then by all means, square peg meet round hole.

By the time Sater switches the roster over in a few years I'm sure AV will be on his last legs anyway. Case in point why the lack of leadership and any type of long term plan is the real problem.

Exactly. After the partway through the 2010 season where the Ranger backup goalie gave a total of 0 points the entire year Torts went from Safe is Death to the 6 goalie system. That year the team was down in the standings for large chunks of the year, and had a 19 year old DZ and Matt Gilroy play major minutes. By middle of 2011 the 6 goalie system was a part of who they were, and roster started seeing upgrades that fit that system.

You hit the nail on the head, to try and become a Detroit would take years of losing, and AV & Arnie won't be around to see their grand vision.

Trxjw 12-10-2013 10:25 PM

Hiring a new coach was easier than admitting he put together a team with mediocre talent.

JHS 12-10-2013 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikos87 (Post 75949097)
AV and Arnie clearly see that the personnel can't play thus system. So why not go back to what worked? Cause AV & Arnie didn't think of it?

Seriously don't think that this coaching staff wants to coach the guys on the team.

In management you manage what you have, and AV & Arnie clearly are looking the other way.

AV said in so many words that he has to coach in a much more defensive way than he wants to because clearly scoring is a struggle. Yeah that's not turning away from the problems. He knows the problems but can't do much to fix them.

Trades have to happen now. It is clear that AV is even driving a wedge between himself and his team now knowing full well, that this is not the group of players he wants to coach and needs to have to be succesful. If Sather hired this guy, he owes it to him to give him some tools to work with.

I think what AV said after the game was a brilliant move. If the front office does not respond, AV has laid his cards out on the table for everyone to see!

RangersHank* 12-10-2013 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHS (Post 75951339)
You could not have listened to the actual post game If you wrote this. AV said exactly what you are accusing him of not doing. He said in so many words that he has to coach in a much more defensive way than he wants to because clearly scoring is a struggle. Yeah that's not turning away from the problems. He knows the problems but can't do much to fix them.

Trades have to happen now. It is clear that AV is even driving a wedge between himself and his team now knowing full well, that this is not the group of players he wants to coach and needs to have to be succesful. If Sather hired this guy, he owes it to him to give him some tools to work with.

I think what AV said after the game was a brilliant move. If the front office does not respond, AV has laid his cards out on the table for everyone to see!


Either it plays out good or bad. Sucks it has to be this way

rdhstlr23 12-10-2013 10:37 PM

A lot of good points.

I thought it was telling that AV basically shifted accountability to the personnel guys. In so many words, he said he isn't being given the right guys to run the system.

Most of us hate Sather, but it's just another string of blunders. You hire a coach that doesn't fit the players. Then you don't bring in players he needs?

Trades have to happen yes.

StaalWars 12-10-2013 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trxjw (Post 75951131)
Hiring a new coach was easier than admitting he put together a team with mediocre talent.

Agreed, I think Sather has always taken the easiest road in front of him which leads to the interesting question: What does he do now? Just firing AV would be an admission that he screwed up, so I don't see that happening. He has to make some moves to bring in some AV suited personnel but that's easier said than done.

StaalWars 12-10-2013 10:50 PM

The other problem which someone else pointed out in another thread is that "Torts" style players are infinitely easier to find than the players AV seems to want. I've been watching Van lately and you know who is playing 18+ minutes a night for them? Chris Higgins.

The big guns that drove AV's VAN teams were all draft picks. Look at the offensive teams in this league. Now look at their top players. Now tell me how many of those players were acquired in ways other than the draft.

OverTheCap 12-10-2013 10:53 PM

Sather actually thought this team was skilled enough to play in AV's system, which is part of the reason why he hired him. He failed to recognize the deficiencies in the roster he constructed. If Sather can't even properly assess the talent level on this team, how can he be trusted to go about fixing the roster?

Blueshirt Believer 12-10-2013 11:03 PM

I actually don't think there is a disconnect at all folks. I think Sather knew exactly what he was getting out of AV. I think Sather is probably taken a bit off guard that some of the guys are struggling in the system. But I can't imagine Sather Brian Boyle and Taylor Pyatt were going to be quality guys in a puck possession system.

My point is this season was probably always intended to be a work in progress.

FromTheSide 12-10-2013 11:05 PM

I don't know what system AV is trying to impliment here but it's a god awful one at that. I agree we don't have the personel for a run and gun type of offensive system but holy **** are they absolute garbage on the ice.

AV just has to go. If sather is trying to find an "offensive coach" hire Lavi.

Blueshirt Believer 12-10-2013 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FromTheSide (Post 75954335)
I don't know what system AV is trying to impliment here but it's a god awful one at that. I agree we don't have the personel for a run and gun type of offensive system but holy **** are they absolute garbage on the ice.

AV just has to go. If sather is trying to find an "offensive coach" hire Lavi.

He isn't trying to implement a "run and gun style". He is trying to implement a puck possession system and has too many grinders who can't play the style.

Lavi would be no improvement.

mullichicken25 12-10-2013 11:08 PM

Way to pass the buck AV.... Pathetic.

You knew who was on this roster before you took the job

Crease 12-10-2013 11:11 PM

I'll never understand the mindset that the coach should adjust to the personnel. Coaches aren't jack-of-all-trades. What the hell is the GM's job?

Matt Carle Place 12-10-2013 11:13 PM

This thread should be renamed "Sather - Modern Hockey Disconnect."

Punxrocknyc19* 12-10-2013 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Carle Place (Post 75954941)
This thread should be renamed "Sather - Modern Hockey Disconnect."

:laugh: sad but true. he does know anything about winning in the modern era. why is that.. :sarcasm:

BlueshirtBlitz 12-10-2013 11:15 PM

Sather's made a subpar team.

AV isn't a good coach.

It's a recipe for what we have.


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