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Reaper45 07-30-2005 02:46 AM

Now more than ever...
 
do the Kings need a legitimate enforcer. The Ducks have Fedoruk, the Stars have Downey, the Sharks have Parker, the Coyotes have guys like Spiller and Nazarov who are more than willing to throw them.

I really like Flinn, but will he manage to stay healthy? More importantly, will AM play him? We need a guy who's a serious heavy that AM will play. Any options out there?

Ziggy Stardust 07-30-2005 03:16 AM

What is with all the remarks towards Andy Murray's supposed dislike of enforcers? Some Kings fans have been taking shots at Andy Murray for not playing the tough guys. And I'm not just singling you out Reaper, but there are many out there who slam Andy Murray for this.

Lest we forget Andy Murray dressing Kip Brennan, Brad Norton and Ryan Flinn? Or how Stu Grimson was regularly used in the lineup. We have people making stupid claims that Andy Murray doesn't favor tough players... how does that explain Sean Avery being in the lineup just about every night? Sure he isn't a heavyweight but he is someone who isn't afraid of dropping the gloves and is a constant visitor of the penalty box (he led the league in PIM's... how soon we forget).

And it isn't too difficult to pickup an enforcer. There will be bunches of them available in the free agent pool and the Kings have a decent collection in Flinn, Avery and Cowan along with a few other scrappy players. There may be only one "heavyweight" enforcer in the lineup who may not play regularly, but I think the Kings have other priorities to address (such as top six forwards) over picking up a 4th line player who will see less than 5 minutes of ice time every night.

swinginutter* 07-30-2005 03:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust
What is with all the remarks towards Andy Murray's supposed dislike of enforcers? Some Kings fans have been taking shots at Andy Murray for not playing the tough guys. And I'm not just singling you out Reaper, but there are many out there who slam Andy Murray for this.

Lest we forget Andy Murray dressing Kip Brennan, Brad Norton and Ryan Flinn? Or how Stu Grimson was regularly used in the lineup. We have people making stupid claims that Andy Murray doesn't favor tough players... how does that explain Sean Avery being in the lineup just about every night? Sure he isn't a heavyweight but he is someone who isn't afraid of dropping the gloves and is a constant visitor of the penalty box (he led the league in PIM's... how soon we forget).

And it isn't too difficult to pickup an enforcer. There will be bunches of them available in the free agent pool and the Kings have a decent collection in Flinn, Avery and Cowan along with a few other scrappy players. There may be only one "heavyweight" enforcer in the lineup who may not play regularly, but I think the Kings have other priorities to address (such as top six forwards) over picking up a 4th line player who will see less than 5 minutes of ice time every night.

Check stats!

Are you serious dude? Since Stu, we have never seen a consistent "true" heavyweight in the line-up. You call Lappy protecting Allison against Sutton a fair match-up? How about Domi with Ziggy Palffy?

If AM played a heavyweight and promoted team toughness, we wouldn't have all these injuries. We are truly the softest team in the NHL. We don't even protect our goalie for ***** sake.

Just so you know this is the NHL not the IIHF.

It's not about Flinn it's about Murray.............So you win. You have to want a coach that wants to play physical. Not a coach that simply wants to play OH...fence!

King'sPawn 07-30-2005 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust
What is with all the remarks towards Andy Murray's supposed dislike of enforcers? Some Kings fans have been taking shots at Andy Murray for not playing the tough guys. And I'm not just singling you out Reaper, but there are many out there who slam Andy Murray for this.

Lest we forget Andy Murray dressing Kip Brennan, Brad Norton and Ryan Flinn? Or how Stu Grimson was regularly used in the lineup. We have people making stupid claims that Andy Murray doesn't favor tough players... how does that explain Sean Avery being in the lineup just about every night? Sure he isn't a heavyweight but he is someone who isn't afraid of dropping the gloves and is a constant visitor of the penalty box (he led the league in PIM's... how soon we forget).

And it isn't too difficult to pickup an enforcer. There will be bunches of them available in the free agent pool and the Kings have a decent collection in Flinn, Avery and Cowan along with a few other scrappy players. There may be only one "heavyweight" enforcer in the lineup who may not play regularly, but I think the Kings have other priorities to address (such as top six forwards) over picking up a 4th line player who will see less than 5 minutes of ice time every night.

Anti-management like to piss and moan about any possible excuse for things not going their way. It's Murray's fault for not dressing an enforcer to stop the opposition from taking liberties on Allison, Palffy, Deadmarsh, Frolov, etc.

The fact of the matter is, Reaper's right when he said Andy Murray doesn't like enforcers who lack skill and skating ability. He doesn't want to waste a 4th line to go out there for 5 minutes and act like a bunch of mindless goons.

Likewise, he doesn't seem to like goon defenseman. When there are only 6 (MAYBE 7) defenseman on any given night, why have a defenseman act as an enforcer so he can spend 5 minutes in the box? That really stretches the line-up of defensive help.

Either way... there's apparently no reason responding with logic. Some people have just convinced themselves that AM favors a soft, Euro-style system which deems "fight" as a four letter word.

Reaper45 07-30-2005 03:41 AM

The other teams in the division, who we are going to be seeing a hell of a lot more, have some serious heavy's with the exception of Phoenix and maybe Dallas, but regardless we need a guy who can handle their enforcers but still has the ability like Grimson did, to play a regular shift.

So with that criteria, are there any guys out there that can fit AM's style of play?

King'sPawn 07-30-2005 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swinginutter
If AM played a heavyweight and promoted team toughness, we wouldn't have all these injuries. We are truly the softest team in the NHL. We don't even protect our goalie for ***** sake.

Yes, because Montreal is filled with guys ready to drop the gloves. And how badly were they hurt? Or is it the absense of a goon that caused Koivu to get cancer? After all, once team toughness is there, nothing bad can happen to your team, right?

I agree that an enforcer serves an important role to the team, providing team toughness, swaying the momentum, etc.

However, to equate a goon's presence with # of injuries is just silly, and it's getting old.

BINGO 07-30-2005 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust
What is with all the remarks towards Andy Murray's supposed dislike of enforcers? Some Kings fans have been taking shots at Andy Murray for not playing the tough guys. And I'm not just singling you out Reaper, but there are many out there who slam Andy Murray for this.

If you think that Avery or Cowan can go with Fedoruk, your in for a surprise.

If AM's system was in favor of playing "team toughness", you would of seen some retribution for the hit on ZP. What happened? NOTHING.

Is it a coincidence that LA has had the most number of games lost to injury? How many concussions has LA's players suffered?

jt 07-30-2005 09:26 AM

You know I like you Reaper but how about let's do an exercise? Name the guys for each team that you believe they Kings need to match up with. We'll just do the west because that's who the Kings will play the VAST majority of their games:

San Jose
Dallas
Anaheim
Phoenix
Vancouver
Colorado
Calgary
Edmonton
Minnesota
Detroit
St. Louis
Nashville
Columbus
Chicago

Face Wash 07-30-2005 10:07 AM

Bottomline: AM wants guys who can play hockey and belongs in the NHL. If they can also take care of their teammates, great, but if he can't use them on a regular shift, they're useless to AM.

From my recollection the only goon AM has ever used consistently is Brad Norton because he could actually skate and play both up front and on the backline proficiently.

If they can skate and are coachable, AM will play them, if they can't they're useless to him.

KingsFan7824 07-30-2005 10:25 AM

In Murray's time as the coach, the players that would be considered heavyweights would be:

99-00 O'Donnell and McKenna
00-01 Grimson
01-02 K. Belanger (their best overall season, from start to finish. Had some injuries, but Allison and Deadmarsh played almost every game)
02-03 Norton (and if the Kings had 15 fighters, how does that stop what Sutton did? A) it was just in the flow of play. 2) Sutton is what, 6-6, 230lbs? I think he can handle whatever comes at him)
03-04 Brennan (the Kings barely had anything to fill out a roster, let alone protect)

Half the players on this team got hurt attempting to throw a simple check, or getting hit by their own teammates. Deadmarsh had a history of concussions.

How much can a fighter do? Honestly. The players that would go out just to hurt someone don't really care if they get in a fight. And players that play hard, and happen to injure someone during the course of the game, again, don't care if they get in a fight.

I'm not saying that the Kings shouldn't have that type of player on their team. But the guy isn't going to be Jesus, healing our wounded. Players will still be hit. They'll still have cheap shots taken against them.

swinginutter* 07-30-2005 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King'sPawn
Yes, because Montreal is filled with guys ready to drop the gloves. And how badly were they hurt? Or is it the absense of a goon that caused Koivu to get cancer? After all, once team toughness is there, nothing bad can happen to your team, right?

I agree that an enforcer serves an important role to the team, providing team toughness, swaying the momentum, etc.

However, to equate a goon's presence with # of injuries is just silly, and it's getting old.

Well, we can exxagerate the situation all we want. We're seriously beating on a dead horse here.
I know that most injuries can't be prevented with a true heavyweight in the line-up. But some can definitely be avoided. Brooks Orpik against Tim Gleason? Green against Lubo? Sutton with Allison?
Mark Recchi gets hit the wrong way by Havlat and the whole team including Hitchcock puts a bounty on the guy. These are my points! Every team protects their assets. WE DON'T! Simply because the guy can't skate. It's a load of ***** if you ask me. Four scoring lines also under AM is just as lame.

Just answer me this? Say somebody goes after Frolov? Let's say the latest Duck Todd Fedo*****. He hurts our player, and a star player at that. What message are you going to send to.
A.) Your team
B.) Their team
C.) The rest of the league


We're just not feared, and it's painfully obvious. I just hope AM proves me wong this year.

dafranchz 07-30-2005 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reaper45
do the Kings need a legitimate enforcer. The Ducks have Fedoruk, the Stars have Downey, the Sharks have Parker, the Coyotes have guys like Spiller and Nazarov who are more than willing to throw them.

I really like Flinn, but will he manage to stay healthy? More importantly, will AM play him? We need a guy who's a serious heavy that AM will play. Any options out there?


Spiller is not going to be the Coyotes enforcer. He won't back down, but he is not going to play that role. As far as Nazarov goes.....I believe he's not coming back. But I understand the jist of this.

Reaper45 07-30-2005 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jt
You know I like you Reaper but how about let's do an exercise? Name the guys for each team that you believe they Kings need to match up with. We'll just do the west because that's who the Kings will play the VAST majority of their games:

San Jose
Dallas
Anaheim
Phoenix
Vancouver
Colorado
Calgary
Edmonton
Minnesota
Detroit
St. Louis
Nashville
Columbus
Chicago

It'd take to long to do the rest since I don't really know what the other teams rosters are going to look like, but the teams in our division I can do off the top of my head.

sj: parker, davison, mclaren, w primeau, s thornton, smith,
dallas: ott, downey, morrow, erskine, guerin
anaheim: fedoruk, salei, ward, and possibly guys like o'brien, konopka, and brookbank
phoenix: spiller, nazarov, gauthier, o'donnell, nash, doan, hulse

I don't think the Kings need a guy like Bob Probert or a Link Gaetz who's best hockey skill was their fists, I think that the Kings need a guy who can go out and play more than 5 minutes a game and still be able to handle the big boys. Cowan comes close but he's no heavy. And no I don't think that dressing an enforcer will prevent injuries, injuries happen.

jt 07-30-2005 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swinginutter
Mark Recchi gets hit the wrong way by Havlat and the whole team including Hitchcock puts a bounty on the guy. These are my points! Every team protects their assets.

But did that actually make anyone stop hitting the Flyers "the wrong way"? That's what the real argument is...not there there is retaliation for those hits. The argument is that the goon PREVENTS those kinds of hits.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: any player who is such a pansie that getting hit or beat up by Todd Fedoruk will stop them from playing their game (i.e. Avery, TK, Cowan...and even Conroy and Klatt) needs to be cut, traded or otherwise gone from the team.

jt 07-30-2005 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reaper45
It'd take to long to do the rest since I don't really know what the other teams rosters are going to look like, but the teams in our division I can do off the top of my head.

sj: parker, davison, mclaren, w primeau, s thornton, smith,
dallas: ott, downey, morrow, erskine, guerin
anaheim: fedoruk, salei, ward, and possibly guys like o'brien, konopka, and brookbank
phoenix: spiller, nazarov, gauthier, o'donnell, nash, doan, hulse

I don't think the Kings need a guy like Bob Probert or a Link Gaetz who's best hockey skill was their fists, I think that the Kings need a guy who can go out and play more than 5 minutes a game and still be able to handle the big boys. Cowan comes close but he's no heavy. And no I don't think that dressing an enforcer will prevent injuries, injuries happen.

So who would you list as the Kings' comparables to the above guys...and who do they simply not have a guy to compare to?

Reaper45 07-30-2005 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jt
So who would you list as the Kings' comparables to the above guys...and who do they simply not have a guy to compare to?

Well the only guys we have on our roster who are willing to drop the gloves are Flinn, Avery, Cowan, Kostopolous and Quintal if they are resigned, and Gleason, although I'm sure AM will tell him not to drop the gloves because he doesn't like his d-men in the box. So bottom line to me is that we only have Flinn, Avery and Cowan who will drop the gloves on our team. Figure in that Flinn will only end up playing about 20-35 games or so, and really it comes down to Avery and Cowan. The two of them can more than handle themselves against the Smith's, and Ward's, but can no way hang with the big boys like Parker, Fedoruk and the like. Even today the Ducks added another tough guy to play against in Travis Moen. Bottom line is that everyteam in our division is getting tougher and we're not.

swinginutter* 07-30-2005 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingsFan7824
In Murray's time as the coach, the players that would be considered heavyweights would be:

99-00 O'Donnell and McKenna
00-01 Grimson
01-02 K. Belanger (their best overall season, from start to finish. Had some injuries, but Allison and Deadmarsh played almost every game)
02-03 Norton (and if the Kings had 15 fighters, how does that stop what Sutton did? A) it was just in the flow of play. 2) Sutton is what, 6-6, 230lbs? I think he can handle whatever comes at him)
03-04 Brennan (the Kings barely had anything to fill out a roster, let alone protect)

Half the players on this team got hurt attempting to throw a simple check, or getting hit by their own teammates. Deadmarsh had a history of concussions.

How much can a fighter do? Honestly. The players that would go out just to hurt someone don't really care if they get in a fight. And players that play hard, and happen to injure someone during the course of the game, again, don't care if they get in a fight.

I'm not saying that the Kings shouldn't have that type of player on their team. But the guy isn't going to be Jesus, healing our wounded. Players will still be hit. They'll still have cheap shots taken against them.

After Grimson which was 00-01. Check games played with the rest that you mentioned. I don't know which games you've watched in the past, but Norton was not in the game when Allison got blasted. Would he have prevented it. NO! Would Sutton and others be run at. You can bet your life, with an old-school coach. Lappy had to take on Sutton, which everybody loves him for....but was that fair to Lappy. The return match on March 1st? Not one true heavyweight to give him his payback. Maybe you like the soft side of the game........that's you. But everybody has a role, and twenty-nine other teams still think a true heavyweight needs to be in the line-up. Some even more than one! A heavyweight is not Jesus.....he's simply their to police the game......THE WAY IT'S ALWAYS BEEN DONE!
Maybe I can send you some Kings fight tapes when Gretz was there. But it wasn't Gretzky that got protected, it was the whole team. That no longer exists with this uniform.

Here's a recent quote from Lemieux. Read for yourself!

DOMI TO BECOME A PENGUIN?

ROGERS SPORTSNET: last night reported of growing speculation that popular Toronto Maple Leafs tough guy and UFA Tie Domi might end up signing with the Pittsburgh Penguins. Domi is a close friend of Penguins owner and captain Mario Lemieux and was seen golfing this week with Lemieux. Domi insists his first choice is to return to the Leafs but said that would depend on if the club can also re-sign Joe Nieuwendyk and Gary Roberts as well as his family needs. Lemieux didn't elaborate on whether or not he's interested in signing Domi but did admit his club will be in the market for an enforcer to "protect the team's assets".

Spector's Note: So much for Domi supposedly retiring if the Leafs fail to re-sign him. Given how tight the Leafs cap space is and how much the Penguins have available to spend on salaries this season, it's looking more likely that Domi could end up in Steeltown.


Lemieux doesn't know what he's talking about either!

swinginutter* 07-30-2005 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jt
But did that actually make anyone stop hitting the Flyers "the wrong way"? That's what the real argument is...not there there is retaliation for those hits. The argument is that the goon PREVENTS those kinds of hits.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: any player who is such a pansie that getting hit or beat up by Todd Fedoruk will stop them from playing their game (i.e. Avery, TK, Cowan...and even Conroy and Klatt) needs to be cut, traded or otherwise gone from the team.

That's not how the thread started or what the real argument was.

Did it stop making teams hitting the Flyers? Hell no! This is the NHL, but it certainly sent a message across the league that if you take a run at our star, we'll do the same and then some!
Anyways, we'll keep going in circles because some of you are under the conclusion that if the player can't skate he doesn't deserve to take a roster spot. That's where we disagree. I mean how much time does a fourth line log? 6 to 10 mins at best. You always have space for a seperate skater, so what's the scoop. Don't you think that a guy (heavyweight) just sitting there, still sends a presence.

As for your pansie analogy. You completely missed the point. So I assume Frolov has to fight now too? Hell Ziggy almost had to fight Domi because "not" one King was there to back him!

This subject has been stale the last few years. Bottom line is AM will not skate these guys, so why am I (or we) arguing about it. :shakehead

took420s 07-31-2005 01:54 AM

Don't the new rules include tougher instigater penalties?


To those who are crying about our lack of enforcer I would like to remind ya'll that there is basically no fighting in the playoffs.

I can remember Grimson sitting on the bench all playoffs, that spot could have been used by someone who could actually play.

Bottom line is no matter how much I love watching our bigs beat someone down it is not going to help come playoff time and that what it is all about right?

McSorley 33 07-31-2005 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reaper45
Well the only guys we have on our roster who are willing to drop the gloves are Flinn, Avery, Cowan, Kostopolous and Quintal if they are resigned, and Gleason, although I'm sure AM will tell him not to drop the gloves because he doesn't like his d-men in the box. So bottom line to me is that we only have Flinn, Avery and Cowan who will drop the gloves on our team. Figure in that Flinn will only end up playing about 20-35 games or so, and really it comes down to Avery and Cowan. The two of them can more than handle themselves against the Smith's, and Ward's, but can no way hang with the big boys like Parker, Fedoruk and the like. Even today the Ducks added another tough guy to play against in Travis Moen. Bottom line is that everyteam in our division is getting tougher and we're not.


Good points, but if all those guys play, the Kings will be fine! I like Quintal because he will fight the heavyweights like Flinn. Add in their Cowan, Gleason and little Avery and maybe Tom K and we look good.

I really believe a healthy Flinn will beat Fedoruk 7-10 fights and Cowan can take that Moen guy. Then Avery will come in and punch them both in the head when their not looking and then Quintal will step in and handle it. Thats why it's important to have a Quintal next to Sean on the third line to finish what Avery starts.

:kings

McSorley 33 07-31-2005 02:36 AM

I think we really need a power forward. We don't have one currently and really need one.


:kings

Randall Graves* 07-31-2005 03:36 AM

I certainly hope the kings get an enforcer or two, I would personally love to see flinn and fedoruk go at it.

If andy murray doesn't dress tough guys this year he is leaving his skill players unprotected.

Randall Graves* 07-31-2005 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingsFan7824
In Murray's time as the coach, the players that would be considered heavyweights would be:

99-00 O'Donnell and McKenna
00-01 Grimson
01-02 K. Belanger (their best overall season, from start to finish. Had some injuries, but Allison and Deadmarsh played almost every game)
02-03 Norton (and if the Kings had 15 fighters, how does that stop what Sutton did? A) it was just in the flow of play. 2) Sutton is what, 6-6, 230lbs? I think he can handle whatever comes at him)
03-04 Brennan (the Kings barely had anything to fill out a roster, let alone protect)

Half the players on this team got hurt attempting to throw a simple check, or getting hit by their own teammates. Deadmarsh had a history of concussions.

How much can a fighter do? Honestly. The players that would go out just to hurt someone don't really care if they get in a fight. And players that play hard, and happen to injure someone during the course of the game, again, don't care if they get in a fight.

I'm not saying that the Kings shouldn't have that type of player on their team. But the guy isn't going to be Jesus, healing our wounded. Players will still be hit. They'll still have cheap shots taken against them.

I think overall team toughness is really important, the allison/deadmarsh kings were physical and tough deadmarsh was especially a pain in the ass. Ever since they've been out the kings have gotten noticeably less physical IMO.

KingsFan7824 07-31-2005 10:18 AM

Quote:

The return match on March 1st? Not one true heavyweight to give him his payback.
I'm pretty sure Sutton was out for that game. I seem to remember everyone wanting someone in there just to run Kovalchuk. I may be wrong, but that just sticks in my head.

Quote:

I don't know which games you've watched in the past, but Norton was not in the game when Allison got blasted. Would he have prevented it. NO! Would Sutton and others be run at. You can bet your life, with an old-school coach
So even if Norton had been in the Atlanta game, it wouldn't have prevented a knee injury that was caused by bad defensive positioning on Sutton's part, but it would've somehow made it better had Norton gone mental at some later point in the game?

Quote:

Lappy had to take on Sutton, which everybody loves him for....but was that fair to Lappy.
We're talking about a topic where some make the argument to run the other teams star player, or to have vendetta orgies, and you ask is it fair? Was it fair to Laperriere? I'm afraid I don't know how to answer that.

Quote:

Maybe you like the soft side of the game........that's you.
Is that supposed to be an insult?

As I've said, I think the Kings should have a player like this in their lineup. But I don't have a blood lust about it. For the most part, the Kings, even under Andy "The Man in the Skirt" Murray, have had that player in their lineup.

Look at the Kings over the last few years. Not only did the star players get hurt, but the fighters got hurt too. Brennan had a concussion for a while. Norton had a skate go through his arm. Belanger got a concussion that cost him an entire year. Laperriere ran into some concussions. Flinn has had some injuires, and last year had a bad ankle while in Manchester. The Kings were left with a couple skill guys, a few vets that don't really fight, and the rest were minor leaguers and young players.

What are the Kings supposed to do when everyone gets hurt? Have a fighter, and a fighter to protect the fighter, and a fighter to protect the fighter who was protecting the fighter, and a fighter to protect the fighter who was protecting the fighter who was protecting the fighter?

swinginutter* 07-31-2005 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingsFan7824
I'm pretty sure Sutton was out for that game. I seem to remember everyone wanting someone in there just to run Kovalchuk. I may be wrong, but that just sticks in my head.



So even if Norton had been in the Atlanta game, it wouldn't have prevented a knee injury that was caused by bad defensive positioning on Sutton's part, but it would've somehow made it better had Norton gone mental at some later point in the game?



We're talking about a topic where some make the argument to run the other teams star player, or to have vendetta orgies, and you ask is it fair? Was it fair to Laperriere? I'm afraid I don't know how to answer that.



Is that supposed to be an insult?

As I've said, I think the Kings should have a player like this in their lineup. But I don't have a blood lust about it. For the most part, the Kings, even under Andy "The Man in the Skirt" Murray, have had that player in their lineup.

Look at the Kings over the last few years. Not only did the star players get hurt, but the fighters got hurt too. Brennan had a concussion for a while. Norton had a skate go through his arm. Belanger got a concussion that cost him an entire year. Laperriere ran into some concussions. Flinn has had some injuires, and last year had a bad ankle while in Manchester. The Kings were left with a couple skill guys, a few vets that don't really fight, and the rest were minor leaguers and young players.

What are the Kings supposed to do when everyone gets hurt? Have a fighter, and a fighter to protect the fighter, and a fighter to protect the fighter who was protecting the fighter, and a fighter to protect the fighter who was protecting the fighter who was protecting the fighter?

Seriously bro, we'll go at this topic for a decade. There is a new season ahead, so i'll just look forward to that, and be interested to what happens in the future.

I just hope that, those of you that don't appreciate that part of the game, soon realize that it's an integral part of the game, and it will never go away. I will disagree with opinions of how are star players are protected. That's the bottom line.


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