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-   -   Player Discussion: The Curious Case of Seth Jones's TOI (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1563247)

Top 6 Spaling 12-17-2013 09:48 PM

The Curious Case of Seth Jones's TOI
 
I've been busy with college-y things and haven't been able to spend as much time watching the team. Last I checked, Jones was playing 25 minutes a night, including PP and PK, and now all the sudden he's playing about 12 and no PP or PK...why? He looked amazing the 5 or so times I've seen him, and IMO was the best PPQB I can remember on this team?

Why is Trotz treating him like a 3rd pairing Dman?

NoNecksCurse 12-17-2013 09:50 PM

typical rookie treatment... there is no reason for it.

Top 6 Spaling 12-17-2013 09:53 PM

On a somewhat related note....Ekholm scratched for Ellis? Again, small sample size, but Ellis has looked like an AHLer when I've seen him, and Ekholm has looked like a very solid 2nd pairing guy.

PredsV82 12-17-2013 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoNecksCurse (Post 76364497)
typical rookie treatment... there is no reason for it.

What a load of crap. He was getting the big minutes when Josi was out. Josi is now bac k on the top pair. It may be that Trotz doesn't think hes a good fit with Klein, ergo, he drops to the third pair.

we all knew he would have growing pains...

Top 6 Spaling 12-17-2013 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PredsV82 (Post 76365287)
What a load of crap. He was getting the big minutes when Josi was out. Josi is now bac k on the top pair. It may be that Trotz doesn't think hes a good fit with Klein, ergo, he drops to the third pair.

we all knew he would have growing pains...

I'm sorry, that's no reason to play a talent like Jones for 6:19 through two periods. And this is the norm now.

PredsV82 12-17-2013 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Top 6 Spaling (Post 76365891)
I'm sorry, that's no reason to play a talent like Jones for 6:19 through two periods. And this is the norm now.

Im guessing he isnt on the PK and thats killing his time tonite for sure.

he has also been making typical rookie mistakes and im guessing Trotz figures this is not the team to have those mistakes happen against

Jones is good but hes still a kid and has a lot to learn, and we happen to have several world class d men in front of him

Top 6 Spaling 12-17-2013 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PredsV82 (Post 76366619)
Im guessing he isnt on the PK and thats killing his time tonite for sure.

he has also been making typical rookie mistakes and im guessing Trotz figures this is not the team to have those mistakes happen against

Jones is good but hes still a kid and has a lot to learn, and we happen to have several world class d men in front of him

Jones with 8:20 tonight, Bartley with 14:30, Ellis with 12:11. I get why he's behind Weber, Josi, and Klein, but he easily is better than those two.

PredsV82 12-17-2013 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Top 6 Spaling (Post 76367095)
Jones with 8:20 tonight, Bartley with 14:30, Ellis with 12:11. I get why he's behind Weber, Josi, and Klein, but he easily is better than those two.

Bartley plays PK and is paired with Klein. I have not noticed but when he is playing is he now getting to play on his natural side?

its looking like trotz doesnt trust him on special teams

101st_fan 12-17-2013 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoNecksCurse (Post 76364497)
typical rookie treatment... there is no reason for it.

no reason other than the numerous rookie mistakes noted here when Josi was out. Those mistakes continue so his ice time drops ... very simple. Look at his play tonight ... 3rd period specifically ... gets the puck, delays, waits, then blasts the puck into a defenders shins leading to an opposition rush which is all too typical of his play of late. He isn't making good decisions, he presses, he makes mistakes and that combination on a team hovering just above .500 is deadly.

XxPRODxX 12-17-2013 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 101st_fan (Post 76373449)
no reason other than the numerous rookie mistakes noted here when Josi was out. Those mistakes continue so his ice time drops ... very simple. Look at his play tonight ... 3rd period specifically ... gets the puck, delays, waits, then blasts the puck into a defenders shins leading to an opposition rush which is all too typical of his play of late. He isn't making good decisions, he presses, he makes mistakes and that combination on a team hovering just above .500 is deadly.

Exactly Jones may be a great player but to many mistakes are being done by him. Honestly I think Ellis is playing great but still has room to grow same with Ekholm. Now Bartley I feel has play really well in that group of young dmen.

:handclap:

Top 6 Spaling 12-18-2013 12:32 AM

I'll defer to people who have watched more games than me. Hopefully Jones eliminates his mistakes and can get back to playing big minutes.

glenngineer 12-18-2013 08:46 AM

If Jones should be sitting because of mistakes so should half the team. They were horrible in the second and third last night. Too many mental mistakes. Let's take a kid who is a talent and every time he makes a mistake sit him on the bench a little longer to think about said mistakes. It doesn't work. It hampers the development. If you fall off a bike or crash it, what do you do, get right back on it. When he sits, he thinks too long and then he starts to grip his stick too tight causing more mistakes. You have to be able to react out there, not sit and think about every little thing. Certain things should be natural. Let the kid play. Let Ekholm play. He was good enough to play first pairing minutes with Weber when Josi was out. He was able to play the PK and PP as well. The PP sucked except for the first one we had yet we kept doing the same thing. Change it up. Put Jones back out there. I don't get it unless he's nursing an injury but I think it's Trotz taking the fun out of the game for the kids again and making him play his system. While you have to play a team game, let the kid play his game too. You might be surprised with the results. Wilson scores four in a game and is told that's not the way we play the game and what has he done since? Let's stifle the kids. Let's play the vets and grinders. Stupid stupid stupid.

triggrman 12-18-2013 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenngineer (Post 76385405)
If Jones should be sitting because of mistakes so should half the team. They were horrible in the second and third last night. Too many mental mistakes. Let's take a kid who is a talent and every time he makes a mistake sit him on the bench a little longer to think about said mistakes. It doesn't work. It hampers the development. If you fall off a bike or crash it, what do you do, get right back on it. When he sits, he thinks too long and then he starts to grip his stick too tight causing more mistakes. You have to be able to react out there, not sit and think about every little thing. Certain things should be natural. Let the kid play. Let Ekholm play. He was good enough to play first pairing minutes with Weber when Josi was out. He was able to play the PK and PP as well. The PP sucked except for the first one we had yet we kept doing the same thing. Change it up. Put Jones back out there. I don't get it unless he's nursing an injury but I think it's Trotz taking the fun out of the game for the kids again and making him play his system. While you have to play a team game, let the kid play his game too. You might be surprised with the results. Wilson scores four in a game and is told that's not the way we play the game and what has he done since? Let's stifle the kids. Let's play the vets and grinders. Stupid stupid stupid.

Totally agreed. I can't point out mistakes Bartley makes in every shift. Josi was full of mistakes last night too.

It's an ego game Trotz plays with every rookie, even Suter.

Roman Yoshi 12-18-2013 09:09 AM

The fact Ryan "too short to ride this ride" Ellis is getting more ice time than Jones is tantamount to murder of Jones' confidence. One is a specialist player. One is a special player. We all know which one is which. If trotsky dug his head out of his rectum, he would know too.

Predarat 12-18-2013 09:17 AM

Looks like they are Trotzin' Defenseman now! I thought they only did that to forwards.

PredsV82 12-18-2013 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roman Yoshi (Post 76386003)
The fact Ryan "too short to ride this ride" Ellis is getting more ice time than Jones is tantamount to murder of Jones' confidence. One is a specialist player. One is a special player. We all know which one is which. If trotsky dug his head out of his rectum, he would know too.

youre insane.

hes a rookie, learning to play with adults, with less than half a season's experience.

if he's so damn fragile that his ego will be shattered by learning the game behind some truly great players with a lot more experience, then there isnt anything "special" about him... if what you say is true then he has the mental toughness of an undercooked waffle and is destined for head-case land.

Fortunately, I believe he is smart enough to understand that he isnt going to be a top pair defenseman on this team for a while and I think he will be just fine

triggrman 12-18-2013 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Predarat (Post 76386243)
Looks like they are Trotzin' Defenseman now! I thought they only did that to forwards.

Nope, he did it with Hamhuis, Klein and Suter too.

Did it a lot with Suter.

SeventyOneTN 12-18-2013 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Top 6 Spaling (Post 76367095)
Jones with 8:20 tonight, Bartley with 14:30, Ellis with 12:11. I get why he's behind Weber, Josi, and Klein, but he easily is better than those two.

NHL.com showed him with 11:56 last night. I think this is normal development curve. I hope he doesn't hit the rookie wall, and hopefully this will help. Right now the coaching staff trusts the other pairings more in certain situations, but Jones is still in a great position to learn, develop and contribute. If he was actually benching him it would be different.
Also, with all the earlier ice time, teams appear to have figured out his game a little bit and have adjusted. This is typical, he will adjust his game.

PredsV82 12-18-2013 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by triggrman (Post 76388125)
Nope, he did it with Hamhuis, Klein and Suter too.

Did it a lot with Suter.

ever think that maybe he does that with top prospects so they will learn that they are supposed to be exceptional, and not just decent??

I can imagine the message to Suter was, yes, you belong here and could play, but you can be so much better, so I am going to sit you until you give me your best, not just enough to be better than Mark Eaton or Shane Hnidy


Jones is probably better right now than Bartley will ever be, but if Trotz simply lets him coast along being "just good enough" he wont reach his full potential

sighthndlady 12-18-2013 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PredsV82 (Post 76389767)
ever think that maybe he does that with top prospects so they will learn that they are supposed to be exceptional, and not just decent??

I can imagine the message to Suter was, yes, you belong here and could play, but you can be so much better, so I am going to sit you until you give me your best, not just enough to be better than Mark Eaton or Shane Hnidy


Jones is probably better right now than Bartley will ever be, but if Trotz simply lets him coast along being "just good enough" he wont reach his full potential

I think you're right. In the end, it certainly didn't hurt the development of any of those three guys.

I had an inspirational thought last night. We are in total, desperate need of a franchise forward. Something we've never had. This would be so totally outside Poile's comfort zone that I'm sure he'd never do it, but just consider: we have a franchise D-man, and some pretty darn good ones behind him in Josi & Klein. Do we really, really need Seth Jones? Once the draft lottery is done, why not approach the #1 team and say to them: look, we've got a sure thing franchise D-man. We've already given him a year of NHL seasoning, and he's ready to play big minutes on your team. We'll trade him to you straight up for the #1 pick. If we make the 2nd round of the playoffs next year, we get your #2 then as well.

If you were, say, Buffalo - would you do it?

Top 6 Spaling 12-18-2013 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sighthndlady (Post 76392193)
I think you're right. In the end, it certainly didn't hurt the development of any of those three guys.

I had an inspirational thought last night. We are in total, desperate need of a franchise forward. Something we've never had. This would be so totally outside Poile's comfort zone that I'm sure he'd never do it, but just consider: we have a franchise D-man, and some pretty darn good ones behind him in Josi & Klein. Do we really, really need Seth Jones? Once the draft lottery is done, why not approach the #1 team and say to them: look, we've got a sure thing franchise D-man. We've already given him a year of NHL seasoning, and he's ready to play big minutes on your team. We'll trade him to you straight up for the #1 pick. If we make the 2nd round of the playoffs next year, we get your #2 then as well.

If you were, say, Buffalo - would you do it?

Depends on how they see Reinhart. IMO their bigger need is at center (Hodgson) over defense (Myers, Ehrhoff, Pysyk, McNabb), so I probably wouldn't, but who knows?

If it's the Isles, I'd bet they do it.

glenngineer 12-18-2013 12:16 PM

This is BS about development. The coach said last week this is about winning, not development. He either belongs here or he doesn't. If he doesn't send him to Milwaukee, if he does, play him.

Why do you think Suter is gone? Possibly by the way he was treated by Trotz? It couldn't be that because Trotz is the king around here but he alienates his young players way too often to "teach" them a lesson. It's BS and I'm sick and tired of it. Other teams have had rookies come in and do just fine.

If Trotz didn't come out and say what he did about winning versus development last week the arguments are valid but since he said this is about winning and not development, he can't have it both ways and neither can we.

This is a league about winning. Can we do it with the current roster and management team. No. Then change it. Plain and simple.

Nashville Transplant 12-18-2013 12:20 PM

Reading some of these posts is both comical and infuriating.

1. The name Housley never appears in this thread. If you know ANYTHING about NHL coaching staffs, you know that the defense is generally run by coaches like him. Of course, Trotz is the head coach, and the entire coaching staff makes decisions regarding situational play, but that you all lay blame at the feet of the head coach is just incorrect...

2. of course, there's no blame to be laid. Jones is a special talent and will be a cornerstone of the franchise for a long time, and so curtailing his minutes over a small period of time is not meant to be punishment, and not meant as a message sender... it's meant to give him time to observe situations. Paired with Weber or Josi, he got more minutes, because either of those guys, when in the lineup, get more minutes, plain and simple. This idea that we rank defensemen from 1 to 6, and dole out minutes accordingly is just dumb. There are "pairings" and yes, right now, because he is not paired with Klein, he is in the third pairing, and is not being used a ton in special teams situations. Over time, this will change.

I love seeing the passion from the fans, but sometimes I wonder how a lot of your ideas ruminate... Follow other teams...Study the game. Watch the ice time for guys like Lindholm in Ana, Matta in Pitt, and even guys like Gelinas in NJ and Reilly in Tor... it's a LONG season... Jones will have plenty of ice time when it's all said and done.

glenngineer 12-18-2013 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nashville Transplant (Post 76392937)
Reading some of these posts is both comical and infuriating.

1. The name Housley never appears in this thread. If you know ANYTHING about NHL coaching staffs, you know that the defense is generally run by coaches like him. Of course, Trotz is the head coach, and the entire coaching staff makes decisions regarding situational play, but that you all lay blame at the feet of the head coach is just incorrect...

2. of course, there's no blame to be laid. Jones is a special talent and will be a cornerstone of the franchise for a long time, and so curtailing his minutes over a small period of time is not meant to be punishment, and not meant as a message sender... it's meant to give him time to observe situations. Paired with Weber or Josi, he got more minutes, because either of those guys, when in the lineup, get more minutes, plain and simple. This idea that we rank defensemen from 1 to 6, and dole out minutes accordingly is just dumb. There are "pairings" and yes, right now, because he is not paired with Klein, he is in the third pairing, and is not being used a ton in special teams situations. Over time, this will change.

I love seeing the passion from the fans, but sometimes I wonder how a lot of your ideas ruminate... Follow other teams...Study the game. Watch the ice time for guys like Lindholm in Ana, Matta in Pitt, and even guys like Gelinas in NJ and Reilly in Tor... it's a LONG season... Jones will have plenty of ice time when it's all said and done.

People using arguments that contradict exactly what the coach said last week then praise said coach emphatically. We love him, we'll make our own excuses for him, to me, you can't have it both ways. If the game is about winning, does limiting Jones's minutes hurt or help this team and/or his growth over time? The PP is not clicking yet he's on the bench.

Seth Lake 12-18-2013 02:17 PM

Here's an interesting thought...

Could the reduction in ice time be a decision to help maintain Jones for the long haul of an 82 game season against men as an 18 yo?

Jones has played a lot of hockey. No doubt he can do it, but after a great start he did struggle for a stretch. Right now his ice might be limited to simply have him concentrate on developing a few areas, maintaining his body, and continuing to learn the demands of the pro game.

I lived through Chris Pronger's rookie year in Hartford. Jones is going a lot smoother...


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