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-   -   When this team is healthy, it's still not that good (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1563523)

Pierre Gotye 12-18-2013 09:32 AM

When this team is healthy, it's still not that good
 
This team's problems aren't fixed by a complete roster alone:

-There is a bad mix of talent up the middle. Bozak is not a 1C, Kadri is best suited as a 2C, Bozak and Bolland are 3C's, and McClement beyond the 3C is scary. Holland isn't a 3C or a 4C. Smith is ok, but not a top 6 guy where he's seen time.

-The defenseman core has a multitude of problems. Dion not scoring, is a huge problem. Gunarsson will never be a point getter. Franson has been woefully inconsistent. Gardiner is an emerging talent but hasn't meshed well with anyone. Ranger has NHL talent, but can't find a niche. Fraser is struggling, and doesn't do anything very well. JML can't find a place and isn't suited for 3rd pairing minutes. Rielly needs ice time to develop, but can't find a good partner to play with. Having too many L shots is also a big problem.

-The strength of this team on paper is on it's wing. Aside from JVR/Kessel and Raymond, not much is going on there. Lupul has been inconsistent. Clarkson will never be a big scorer. Kulemin is a defensive forward. The team misuses the talent of Ashton. D'Amigo's been good but also deserves more time. Orr and McLaren aren't contributing very much, and never will. And neither of the two are even fighting very much lately, so it makes them both wasted roster spots, even if they only play 3-5 minutes a game.

-Bernier and Reimer worked earlier this season, but both are struggling lately. Reimer still panics in the net, scrambles for pucks, and last night the Leafs looked awful inside the slot and especially at keep pucks out of the crease area. Bernier is starting to allow too many softies.

-Don't get me started on coaching. The systems Carlyle is employing are not suited for this team. He wants a team to be a grinding, strong defensive team. This team was assembled by Burke for Ron Wilson who wanted to run and gun. Even with the Clarkson and Bolland additions, it's not geared to work under Carlyle's ideas. Good coaches know how to maximize team talents, not by personal preference, but by obvious skillset strengths.

There is not an easy fix for this lineup. The Leafs will panic, Nonis is going to trade Gardiner, because Carlyle doesn't appear to be very fond of him. Whoever acquires him will hit a homerun, and maximize his talent, and the Leafs will look dumb for dealing him.

The only way this team gets better is if Carlyle changes his tactics, which is unlikely, or if the Leafs figure out how to play in his systems(also unlikely). I hate to see a coach get fired, but I don't think RC get fired until it's official that the Leafs missed the playoffs. RC will use the injury excuse forever.

leafs in five 12-18-2013 09:41 AM

team's record with Bozak isn't better than the team's record without Bozak.

things are grim. and i don't see any reason to believe that the men running this organization are bright enough to make things better.

dubplatepressure 12-18-2013 09:53 AM

I notice all those fans calling people who cited advanced stats to tell us that the team was worse than their record showed in October are awfully quiet right about now. As they should be.

Our blue line stinks.

Pierre Gotye 12-18-2013 09:54 AM

Skating isn't an issue with this team. In fact, most of the Leafs skate pretty well. It should be a strength to cover gaps, but it's not being used to it's potential much at all.

Bozak by himself isn't a difference maker no matter how you slice it. He was signed to basically keep Kessel.

Same for Bolland. I like Bolland better than Bozak...but neither are like losing Stamkos to injury.

therealkoho 12-18-2013 10:06 AM

I hear the Sabres are looking for pro scouts, you should apply....... it certainly pays a lot better then the intertainmentnet

Glenn Healy 12-18-2013 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre Gotye (Post 76387367)
Skating isn't an issue with this team. In fact, most of the Leafs skate pretty well. It should be a strength to cover gaps, but it's not being used to it's potential much at all.

Bozak by himself isn't a difference maker no matter how you slice it. He was signed to basically keep Kessel.

Same for Bolland. I like Bolland better than Bozak...but neither are like losing Stamkos to injury.

The Leafs are a North South team. A recipe for disaster

This team was constructed by Burke/Nonis, you can only change how a player plays so much

RC is stuck with this flawed team. I hope he finds a better team elsewhere

hoglund 12-18-2013 10:24 AM

the title of this thread is a little misleading, "when this team is healthy, it's still not that good". This may be true, but we haven't had a chance to see this, the team hasn't been healthy since early November and at that point they WERE good. Bozak still isn't back Bolland probably won't be back this year, Lupul just got back etc. the full team hasn't been healthy as of late, so this team can't be assessed as a healthy team. Right now this team is playing terrible and are not getting the breaks they did in October, but to say this team isn't good even when healthy cannot be done until they ARE healthy.

Gary Nylund 12-18-2013 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoglund (Post 76388393)
the title of this thread is a little misleading, "when this team is healthy, it's still not that good". This may be true, but we haven't had a chance to see this, the team hasn't been healthy since early November and at that point they WERE good. Bozak still isn't back Bolland probably won't be back this year, Lupul just got back etc. the full team hasn't been healthy as of late, so this team can't be assessed as a healthy team. Right now this team is playing terrible and are not getting the breaks they did in October, but to say this team isn't good even when healthy cannot be done until they ARE healthy.

LOL. And the excuses continue. Yeah, just add Bozak, Bolland and wave the magic wand over Lupul so that his injury-proneness disappears and this team will be capable of "hanging in there" with anyone in the East right?

Saying this team was "GOOD" is dumb. The goalies played out of their mind is all.

dubplatepressure 12-18-2013 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoglund (Post 76388393)
the title of this thread is a little misleading, "when this team is healthy, it's still not that good". This may be true, but we haven't had a chance to see this, the team hasn't been healthy since early November and at that point they WERE good. Bozak still isn't back Bolland probably won't be back this year, Lupul just got back etc. the full team hasn't been healthy as of late, so this team can't be assessed as a healthy team. Right now this team is playing terrible and are not getting the breaks they did in October, but to say this team isn't good even when healthy cannot be done until they ARE healthy.

How do you figure we were VERY good? I think you're stretching the term if you think bottom 5 in shots for and against and heavy reliance on special teams and hot goalies is 'very good'. We overachieved with a healthy lineup - there's nothing to indicate this wouldn't be happening with a full lineup.

colchar 12-18-2013 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dubplatepressure (Post 76387331)
I notice all those fans calling people who cited advanced stats to tell us that the team was worse than their record showed in October are awfully quiet right about now. As they should be.



Advanced stats are ridiculously overrated.

hoglund 12-18-2013 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary Nylund (Post 76388769)
LOL. And the excuses continue. Yeah, just add Bozak, Bolland and wave the magic wand over Lupul so that his injury-proneness disappears and this team will be capable of "hanging in there" with anyone in the East right?

Saying this team was "GOOD" is dumb. The goalies played out of their mind is all.

Yes, since Bolland has been hurt is when the Leafs began to lose their winning ways, there are no excuses, they are FACTS, an excuse is when you make things up to defend poor play. It's true that ALL teams have injuries, but the Leafs have injuries to key players and they don't have a lot of depth, like the Penguins, but healthy the Leafs are a good team, they just need to stay healthy or add some depth.

Leafs87 12-18-2013 11:31 AM

Why is holland not a 3c ?

Antropovsky 12-18-2013 11:33 AM

Agreed... On not being that good

caribouPINE 12-18-2013 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colchar (Post 76389919)
Advanced stats are ridiculously overrated.

I used to think that too, then I realized the correlation between them (good advanced stats) and good teams is pretty significant.

I mean, the Leafs were literally the only top 10 team (for a time) defying the majority of the advanced statistics.... We were the outlier.

TheLeastOfTheBunch 12-18-2013 11:39 AM

With Bolland, Bozak and McClement in the lineup we have 3Cs who help out our defence well. Plus Bolland/Bozak are ~20 goal types as well. Allows a Kadri-Lupul duo on the 2nd line, with them going up against the other team's 3rd/4th lines.

We will see I guess (in a month?).

New Liskeard 12-18-2013 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre Gotye (Post 76386721)
This team's problems aren't fixed by a complete roster alone:

-There is a bad mix of talent up the middle. Bozak is not a 1C, Kadri is best suited as a 2C, Bozak and Bolland are 3C's, and McClement beyond the 3C is scary. Holland isn't a 3C or a 4C. Smith is ok, but not a top 6 guy where he's seen time.

-The defenseman core has a multitude of problems. Dion not scoring, is a huge problem. Gunarsson will never be a point getter. Franson has been woefully inconsistent. Gardiner is an emerging talent but hasn't meshed well with anyone. Ranger has NHL talent, but can't find a niche. Fraser is struggling, and doesn't do anything very well. JML can't find a place and isn't suited for 3rd pairing minutes. Rielly needs ice time to develop, but can't find a good partner to play with. Having too many L shots is also a big problem.

-The strength of this team on paper is on it's wing. Aside from JVR/Kessel and Raymond, not much is going on there. Lupul has been inconsistent. Clarkson will never be a big scorer. Kulemin is a defensive forward. The team misuses the talent of Ashton. D'Amigo's been good but also deserves more time. Orr and McLaren aren't contributing very much, and never will. And neither of the two are even fighting very much lately, so it makes them both wasted roster spots, even if they only play 3-5 minutes a game.

-Bernier and Reimer worked earlier this season, but both are struggling lately. Reimer still panics in the net, scrambles for pucks, and last night the Leafs looked awful inside the slot and especially at keep pucks out of the crease area. Bernier is starting to allow too many softies.

-Don't get me started on coaching. The systems Carlyle is employing are not suited for this team. He wants a team to be a grinding, strong defensive team. This team was assembled by Burke for Ron Wilson who wanted to run and gun. Even with the Clarkson and Bolland additions, it's not geared to work under Carlyle's ideas. Good coaches know how to maximize team talents, not by personal preference, but by obvious skillset strengths.

There is not an easy fix for this lineup. The Leafs will panic, Nonis is going to trade Gardiner, because Carlyle doesn't appear to be very fond of him. Whoever acquires him will hit a homerun, and maximize his talent, and the Leafs will look dumb for dealing him.

The only way this team gets better is if Carlyle changes his tactics, which is unlikely, or if the Leafs figure out how to play in his systems(also unlikely). I hate to see a coach get fired, but I don't think RC get fired until it's official that the Leafs missed the playoffs. RC will use the injury excuse forever.

Says the Boston Bruins fan. No agenda there of course. The reality is this, the Leafs were one of the hottest teams coming out of the gate this season, made the playoffs last year and nearly/should have beat your beloved Bruins, the Stanley Cup finalists just for starters. The Leafs have better goaltending and depth in net, than they have ever had in many many years. Its still one of the younger teams in the NHL, and although improvement is needed, they are a better team than you are giving credit for, and strange how the timing of your posts comes out?

Stephen 12-18-2013 11:47 AM

Leafs are probably not going to be that good when Bozak returns. Holland has done a decent job replacing him. Bolland is nice, but he'll have to play like Doug Gilmour for him to make any difference in the team's systematic problems.

Semantics 12-18-2013 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colchar (Post 76389919)
Advanced stats are ridiculously overrated.

Maybe, but they're currently the best predictors known.

BiggestLeafsFanEVER* 12-18-2013 10:24 PM

imo the Leafs are an average time, maybe a bit above average. But we have bad defense and need a coach who will coach in a way that will accentuate our strengths

Leafidelity 12-18-2013 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dubplatepressure (Post 76387331)
I notice all those fans calling people who cited advanced stats to tell us that the team was worse than their record showed in October are awfully quiet right about now. As they should be.

Our blue line stinks.

A broken clock is right twice a day.

jimmycarter 12-18-2013 10:33 PM

everybody is overpaid by at least 2 million.

Mess 12-18-2013 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre Gotye (Post 76386721)
-Don't get me started on coaching. The systems Carlyle is employing are not suited for this team. He wants a team to be a grinding, strong defensive team. This team was assembled by Burke for Ron Wilson who wanted to run and gun. Even with the Clarkson and Bolland additions, it's not geared to work under Carlyle's ideas. Good coaches know how to maximize team talents, not by personal preference, but by obvious skillset strengths.

The only way this team gets better is if Carlyle changes his tactics, which is unlikely, or if the Leafs figure out how to play in his systems(also unlikely). I hate to see a coach get fired, but I don't think RC get fired until it's official that the Leafs missed the playoffs. RC will use the injury excuse forever.

The fact that this team is built for run and gun and Carlyle and Nonis want to play possession game means that we are still at the early stages of the transition in preferred styles and what is wrong with this team.

Carlyle is not going to change his tactics to play run and gun no defense hockey because of the limitations of his players.. His players must evolve to play the coaches system or they will be moved out.

Backhandshelf81 12-18-2013 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iPunch (Post 76423727)
A broken clock is right twice a day.

Keep Calm and Corsi's Wrong, am I right? :laugh:
That's sure worked out well.

Anyway, great post OP, agreed on all points.

Gotta love the apologists who continue to insist that the injury woes are to blame.
Even with Bolland and Bozak back, this team will be lucky to make the playoffs. IMO, they only make it if the goaltending stays strong.. but alas, it appears both goaltenders have been trending downward in sv% since October:

OCT NOV DEC SEASON
Bernier .933 .923 .915 0.925
Reimer .949 .916 .906 0.925

Divine 12-18-2013 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Backhandshelf81 (Post 76428155)
Keep Calm and Corsi's Wrong, am I right? :laugh:
That's sure worked out well.

Anyway, great post OP, agreed on all points.

Gotta love the apologists who continue to insist that the injury woes are to blame.
Even with Bolland and Bozak back, this team will be lucky to make the playoffs. IMO, they only make it if the goaltending stays strong.. but alas, it appears both goaltenders have been trending downward in sv% since October:

OCT NOV DEC SEASON
Bernier .933 .923 .915 0.925
Reimer .949 .916 .906 0.925

And the decline in goaltending has nothing to do with injuries to two, at times 3, penalty killing and defensive minded centres right?

Backhandshelf81 12-18-2013 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dream (Post 76428399)
And the decline in goaltending has nothing to do with injuries to two, at times 3, penalty killing and defensive minded centres right?

Hahahha oh good lord this poor soul seems to think that forwards have an impact on sv%.

Nice mental gymnastics for sure.


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