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-   -   Speculation: Trade Rumors/Speculation Part IX: Dubinsky, Rozsival and a 2nd (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1566415)

*Bob Richards* 12-22-2013 05:14 PM

Trade Rumors/Speculation Part IX: Dubinsky, Rozsival and a 2nd
 
Continue.

LeetchisGod 12-22-2013 05:18 PM

How many playoff series have the leafs won with phaneuf? Zero. I'm not paying $7.5 million for that. Way too much money for another non elite player.

OverTheCap 12-22-2013 05:22 PM

Dubinsky, Rozsival and a 2nd for Heatley? Make it happen Slats!

Raspewtin 12-22-2013 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RangersHank (Post 76633015)
What does he do exactly for 7.5?

1. Gives you size and intimidation on your top pair. Phaneuf is feared around the league, and for good reason. Don't think people are going to skate willy-nilly through the neutral zone with him being a heat seeking missile. Fear and intimidation are very underrated factors in hockey.

2. Plays absolutely insane minutes, and does well. According to behindthenet.ca, last season he had a Corsi Relative QoC (quality of competition) of 2.144. That's a high rating that indicates high possession play against really difficult opponents (generally top line players), and was actually 3rd best in the league only behind OEL and Zbynek Michalek. While playing with Carl Gunnarsson, who's a good defenseman but he's not even close to McD level (who I assume Phaneuf would be playing with). He averaged 25:10 TOI/game last year, 11th highest in the league.

Source: http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...6+63+67#snip=f

3. Brings intense physicality. Lets be real, the defense on this team is soft as ****. McIlrath by himself isn't the answer, especially because I don't see him being a top pair d-man. He clears the crease with authority, and god DAMN does he hit hard. Nobody is going to try to cut the neutral zone clearly with him on the ice. He's also good for 4-5 fights a season if he must. He's 7th in the league in hits amongst defensemen.

To be fair however, he has somewhat of a reputation for stepping up for a big hit, that misses, and creates an odd man rush. Just thought I'd point that out. I think you gotta give to get here though.

4. Brings good offensive instincts, especially on the powerplay. That big shot this whole fanbase is dying for? Yeah, well he's got it. Man he shoots hard. Plays the dual QB/Triggerman for Toronto's top PP unit, as he can make passes or take the shot. While, to be fair, he's not scoring as much as he used to, he's still very capable of racking up points, with 28 in 48 games last year, which would've led the Rangers defensemen.

He sacrificed some of his offense to be better defensively. And he's also playing in Randy Carlyle's system, which allows very little creativity and playmaking from defensemen. He's capable of scoring more than he is. Pretty damn scary.

On top of that, he gives Ryan McDonagh a real capable partner to work with, which he hasn't had in a long time. He won't have to drag him around the ice like he has with Girardi.

I really think he's worth the investment.

Barnaby 12-22-2013 05:27 PM

Maybe I'm out to lunch a bit, but I saw an article on ESPN that Washington could be interested in MDZ. I don't have the insider so I couldn't read the whole thing. I'm not sure if it's pure speculation or there's some smoke there.

I haven't seen Washington play more than once or twice this year, but Marcus Johansson was rumored to be available in the offseason. It looks like he's playing on the top line in a bit of a Carl Hagelin support role.

Would MDZ for Johansson be anywhere near fair value? The Rangers could add a decent prospect or pick to even things out. His speed would probably be a great asset on this team, and he's the same age as MDZ. I doubt Washington is necessarily looking to move him, but would he be available for a fair price? Downside is that he's never scored 15 goals. Upside is that he has good size, and great speed. It might open things up a bit. Kreider/Johansson/Hagelin is great depth on the LW moving forward… TON of speed.

Raspewtin 12-22-2013 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeetchisGod (Post 76633283)
How many playoff series have the leafs won with phaneuf? Zero. I'm not paying $7.5 million for that. Way too much money for another non elite player.

So a player sucks unless he carries his garbage team into the playoffs, got it.

Raspewtin 12-22-2013 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barnaby (Post 76633591)
Maybe I'm out to lunch a bit, but I saw an article on ESPN that Washington could be interested in MDZ. I don't have the insider so I couldn't read the whole thing. I'm not sure if it's pure speculation or there's some smoke there.

I haven't seen Washington play more than once or twice this year, but Marcus Johansson was rumored to be available in the offseason. It looks like he's playing on the top line in a bit of a Carl Hagelin support role.

Would MDZ for Johansson be anywhere near fair value? The Rangers could add a decent prospect or pick to even things out. His speed would probably be a great asset on this team, and he's the same age as MDZ. I doubt Washington is necessarily looking to move him, but would he be available for a fair price? Downside is that he's never scored 15 goals. Upside is that he has good size, and great speed. It might open things up a bit. Kreider/Johansson/Hagelin is great depth on the LW moving forward… TON of speed.

Johansson would be really redundant. We need more play drivers, not complimentary pieces. He's a great player though, and in most other situations I'd definitely like him.

Barnaby 12-22-2013 05:32 PM

As for Phaneuf - You are probably looking at 8 million over 7 years if he doesn't get resigned. I would think that TML would make it work, but if not then that's probably the bench mark. With the rising cap I wouldn't be shocked to even see 8.5 or 9 million since top defensemen in their 20's very rarely go UFA, and many teams will be able to fit him in. I don't think he's worth that until he's 35. Chara or Weber? Sure. Phaneuf? He's not quite at that level.

IF you did make it work, then I'd imagine that Girardi walks as a free agent or he resigns, and you move Staal. I'd strongly consider moving Staal if I could get fair value only because of his injury history.

RangersHank* 12-22-2013 05:34 PM

Dubinsky, Rozi and a 1st for Ryan

LeetchisGod 12-22-2013 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raspewtin (Post 76633601)
So a player sucks unless he carries his garbage team into the playoffs, got it.

Never said that he sucks. He just isn't worth the money he will get in free agency. Ranger fans should know all about this with our track record. For $7.5 million I want an elite player, a difference maker. I don't see phaneuf as that.

Raspewtin 12-22-2013 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barnaby (Post 76633815)
As for Phaneuf - You are probably looking at 8 million over 7 years if he doesn't get resigned. I would think that TML would make it work, but if not then that's probably the bench mark. With the rising cap I wouldn't be shocked to even see 8.5 or 9 million since top defensemen in their 20's very rarely go UFA, and many teams will be able to fit him in. I don't think he's worth that until he's 35. Chara or Weber? Sure. Phaneuf? He's not quite at that level.

IF you did make it work, then I'd imagine that Girardi walks as a free agent or he resigns, and you move Staal. I'd strongly consider moving Staal if I could get fair value only because of his injury history.

He's absolutely not worth 8 million +. No defenseman is. Period.

Barnaby 12-22-2013 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raspewtin (Post 76633617)
Johansson would be really redundant. We need more play drivers, not complimentary pieces. He's a great player though, and in most other situations I'd definitely like him.

I know what you're saying, but I don't think MDZ is bringing back that type of value at this point, and I don't think tossing in mediocre prospects or 2nd/3rd round picks will change that. If you can get a top 6 player whose young and under control contract wise, then you have to look at it. As fast as Kreider and Hagelin are - this team still lacks speed from the forward group.

Raspewtin 12-22-2013 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeetchisGod (Post 76633923)
Never said that he sucks. He just isn't worth the money he will get in free agency. Ranger fans should know all about this with our track record. For $7.5 million I want an elite player, a difference maker. I don't see phaneuf as that.

I literally wrote an essay on how he's a difference maker, how is he not? I actually want to know, because all of HF hates him it seems.

RangersHank* 12-22-2013 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raspewtin (Post 76633547)
1. Gives you size and intimidation on your top pair. Phaneuf is feared around the league, and for good reason. Don't think people are going to skate willy-nilly through the neutral zone with him being a heat seeking missile. Fear and intimidation are very underrated factors in hockey.

2. Plays absolutely insane minutes, and does well. According to behindthenet.ca, last season he had a Corsi Relative QoC (quality of competition) of 2.144. That's a high rating that indicates high possession play against really difficult opponents (generally top line players), and was actually 3rd best in the league only behind OEL and Zbynek Michalek. While playing with Carl Gunnarsson, who's a good defenseman but he's not even close to McD level (who I assume Phaneuf would be playing with). He averaged 25:10 TOI/game last year, 11th highest in the league.

Source: http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...6+63+67#snip=f

3. Brings intense physicality. Lets be real, the defense on this team is soft as ****. McIlrath by himself isn't the answer, especially because I don't see him being a top pair d-man. He clears the crease with authority, and god DAMN does he hit hard. Nobody is going to try to cut the neutral zone clearly with him on the ice. He's also good for 4-5 fights a season if he must. He's 7th in the league in hits amongst defensemen.

To be fair however, he has somewhat of a reputation for stepping up for a big hit, that misses, and creates an odd man rush. Just thought I'd point that out. I think you gotta give to get here though.

4. Brings good offensive instincts, especially on the powerplay. That big shot this whole fanbase is dying for? Yeah, well he's got it. Man he shoots hard. Plays the dual QB/Triggerman for Toronto's top PP unit, as he can make passes or take the shot. While, to be fair, he's not scoring as much as he used to, he's still very capable of racking up points, with 28 in 48 games last year, which would've led the Rangers defensemen.

He sacrificed some of his offense to be better defensively. And he's also playing in Randy Carlyle's system, which allows very little creativity and playmaking from defensemen. He's capable of scoring more than he is. Pretty damn scary.

On top of that, he gives Ryan McDonagh a real capable partner to work with, which he hasn't had in a long time. He won't have to drag him around the ice like he has with Girardi.

I really think he's worth the investment.

isnt he left handed?

Raspewtin 12-22-2013 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RangersHank (Post 76633995)
isnt he left handed?

Yup, plays the right side though. Has his whole career.

RangersHank* 12-22-2013 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raspewtin (Post 76634007)
Yup, plays the right side though. Has his whole career.

Big contracts just freak me out, we have no luck.

Barnaby 12-22-2013 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raspewtin (Post 76633955)
He's absolutely not worth 8 million +. No defenseman is. Period.

Phaneuf isn't. I'd pay Chara or Weber that money in a heart beat.

The problem with signing Phaneuf is that he isn't at that level, but some team will come out of the wood work and pony up that type of cash. If the right team has a need, then they'll overpay. We see that happen every year.

Raspewtin 12-22-2013 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barnaby (Post 76633965)
I know what you're saying, but I don't think MDZ is bringing back that type of value at this point, and I don't think tossing in mediocre prospects or 2nd/3rd round picks will change that. If you can get a top 6 player whose young and under control contract wise, then you have to look at it. As fast as Kreider and Hagelin are - this team still lacks speed from the forward group.

This team lacks speed from it's centers. That's what really hurts them. The center carries the puck up ice, and the winger can't rush into the zone for fear of being offsides. It really slows the play down. Our wingers are actually pretty damn fast. On top of being an idiot, Pouliot is so frequently offsides because he's very fast, and the centers he plays with can't keep up.

Dominic Moore is the only center who's a great skater on this team. Not good.

RangersHank* 12-22-2013 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raspewtin (Post 76634067)
This team lacks speed from it's centers. That's what really hurts them. The center carries the puck up ice, and the winger can't rush into the zone for fear of being offsides. It really slows the play down. Our wingers are actually pretty damn fast. On top of being an idiot, Pouliot is so frequently offsides because he's very fast, and the centers he plays with can't keep up.

Dominic Moore is the only center who's a great skater on this team. Not good.


Sign Gomez

Raspewtin 12-22-2013 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RangersHank (Post 76634035)
Big contracts just freak me out, we have no luck.

Meh, it's a fair point.

Phaneuf is one of those players that normally don't make it to FA, though. Which is why I'm so high on signing him. Kinda like when Chara made it to FA (not comparing their skill, though).

A lot of dud signings this team has made are because they were on players that made it to FA for a reason. In other words, typical free agents. You gotta go all in on those players that 7/10 times don't make it.

Ail 12-22-2013 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeetchisGod (Post 76633283)
How many playoff series have the leafs won with phaneuf? Zero. I'm not paying $7.5 million for that. Way too much money for another non elite player.

I'm not exactly on board with signing Phaneuf to a big contract, but defensemen aren't exactly the type of players who carry their team to playoff series victories alone. That's a pretty lame reason not to sign him. Sure, he's no Lidstrom or Leetch, and is probably not worth 7.5 mil a year, but sincerely how many players in this league right now are worth every penny of their contract? This is how the market works. If a player is going to hit FA and is a desirable piece for a team, he is going to get overpaid. Unless that player really really wants to play for a certain team and is willing to take less money to do so, they are going to go to the highest bidder.

Everyone complains about the Nash contract, is he worth it? No, of course not. He didn't get that contract because he was worth all of it, he got it because Columbus wanted him to stay in Columbus and the only way they were getting him to stay there was to pay him big money. Especially with his resume at the time. This is how it works. Players get overpaid by teams every year. This is especially true for teams who want to sign a big name player who doesn't necessarily want to play there for various reasons. Pony up if you you want to convince that player to play for your team because what else do you have to offer? New York is lucky not to be one of those teams, but they still need to overpay players who are a demand among other teams who will pay even more money.

It's a risk, and usually one that doesn't pay off, but you can't fill every need your team has through the farm. Especially the Rangers with the positions they typically end up drafting.

RangersHank* 12-22-2013 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raspewtin (Post 76634149)
Meh, it's a fair point.

Phaneuf is one of those players that normally don't make it to FA, though. Which is why I'm so high on signing him. Kinda like when Chara made it to FA (not comparing their skill, though).

A lot of dud signings this team has made are because they were on players that made it to FA for a reason. In other words, typical free agents. You gotta go all in on those players that 7/10 times don't make it.


I guess but it still freaks me out. Toronto is definetly letting him go?

LeetchisGod 12-22-2013 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raspewtin (Post 76633989)
I literally wrote an essay on how he's a difference maker, how is he not? I actually want to know, because all of HF hates him it seems.

Has he ever been a Norris finalist in his career? When experts talk about the best defensemen in the league I rarely hear his name mentioned. He simply isn't on the weber, suter, chara, doughty, Keith, subban, karlsson level but he will be paid like he is.

Raspewtin 12-22-2013 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barnaby (Post 76634063)
Phaneuf isn't. I'd pay Chara or Weber that money in a heart beat.

The problem with signing Phaneuf is that he isn't at that level, but some team will come out of the wood work and pony up that type of cash. If the right team has a need, then they'll overpay. We see that happen every year.

He's not on Weber-Chara-Suter level, but he's not far from it at all.

Honestly the only players on that Chara-Suter-Weber level, are Chara, Suter, and Weber, and arguably Doughty.

Phaneuf is more on the level of Kronwall. That's the only comparison I can find.

Raspewtin 12-22-2013 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RangersHank (Post 76634205)
I guess but it still freaks me out. Toronto is definetly letting him go?

They would have signed him by now if they really wanted to keep him, me thinks.

Would be REALLY stupid of them to let him go, however.


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