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-   -   Ulf Samuelsson discussion time? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1574193)

SlingshotVv 01-03-2014 11:07 PM

Ulf Samuelsson discussion time?
 
The defense is among the poorest in the league. Considering that the majority of this defensive roster has been among the best in the league in the not too distant past, it begs the question: how effective is Ulffie's system? Staal goes from a stud to a journeyman? Girardi doesn't look like the All-Star calibre guy he was maturing into. MDZ has regressed into a hole. Moore doesn't even look competent. Stralman gets the most praise following McD, and that's basically for not looking terrible. McD' offensive numbers are up, but he doesn't look near the same in his own zone. Lundqvist has looked mediocre at very best.

Should I really believe what my eyes are telling me; that all these guys have become incompetent at the exact same time? Or is this something deeper that won't be fixed until the staff is replaced?

What teams currently, or in the recent past employ Ulffie's system?


Edit: before people point out that we don't score goals, I know that. We hVent scored lots of goals in a long time. That problem is huge as well, but our defense has fallen apart in one season. From one of the best, to absolutely Fawlty Towers, That can't be normal.

Dactyl* 01-03-2014 11:10 PM

This system isn't working. Something clearly needs to be changed. I don't think it's the players either. All of these guys (except McDonagh) haven't sucked this bad before the man on man system. Please for the love of god try going back to zone.

RangersHank* 01-03-2014 11:14 PM

The players are the same but something is missing on the whole team. They dont even play with each other no more and its not a team game out there. Locker room might be messed up and if i was a player who saw my coach benching DZ but letting J Moore and Nash play, i would question the sanity of that coach. Something went wrong and it started last year, i dont understand how a team coming off an ECF appearance can all turn on their coach after a lockout year. I dont understand how these new coaches are coaching this team. Its just a mess

HatTrick Swayze 01-03-2014 11:18 PM

Thread is long overdue. A top defense in the league shouldn't just become awful overnight.

Yes, Torts' system may have masked some mobility issues. Yes, the players are making some poor reads which is a huge issue. But they are also clearly being coached to play extremely aggressively, and it is moronic. I've said my piece on this a bunch so I will do what I can not to type a novel.

2nd goal tonight is again a classic example. Staal pressures Gibbons erratically and aggressively behind the net. It's an ok play. Would be better if he won the battle like he used to. I personally would like to see him hold his ground and limit passing lanes. But then you have 3 forwards just clueless in recognizing that they need to take Jokinen. Stralman at the other corner watching "his man" vs watching the slot.

More than disagreeing with the system, I have no ever loving idea how the staff has not recognized a need to make changes. Ya know so they don't leave Henrik out to dry every single night and are able to win some games. But nah. Be aggressive. Who cares about the slot.

SlingshotVv 01-03-2014 11:38 PM

We're halfway through the season, and the regular trade talk is Girardi, MDZ, Staal, and that Moore is useless, McIlrath still isn't ready. I think the defense could be fine under a different system. I think McI could be ready right now under a different system.

My question is: is this system worth keeping at the expense of blowing up the current blue line corps? Who is Ulffie's pedigree? Where did he use it successfully and who were the players he had? Who's employing man-to-man? Who's done it in the passed and had it work? What's the majority of the NHL doing?

Baby Punisher 01-03-2014 11:40 PM

I would have no issue with the D playing so aggressive if a forward would come in & help out and take away a passing lane. Seems to me we need to get back to basics, just clear the zone. I would prefer not to see a dump & chase game on all 4 lines, but at least the bottom 2 lines to try & get some stability. I too find it hard to believe that the entire defensive corps. & Lundqvist has fallen off a cliff so fast.

Baby Punisher 01-03-2014 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlingshotVv (Post 77286867)
We're halfway through the season, and the regular trade talk is Girardi, MDZ, Staal, and that Moore is useless, McIlrath still isn't ready. I think the defense could be fine under a different system. I think McI could be ready right now under a different system.

My question is: is this system worth keeping at the expense of blowing up the current blue line corps? Who is Ulffie's pedigree? Where did he use it successfully and who were the players he had? Who's employing man-to-man? Who's done it in the passed and had it work? What's the majority of the NHL doing?

I can't answer any of those questions, I'm curious what his take is on this & is he just following Av's orders. From what I remember ( I may be wrong) but Ulf has some head coaching experience in Europe.

SnowblindNYR 01-04-2014 12:13 AM

I think only McD and to a lesser extent Stralman are playing at career average or better. I think
McD is fine defensively. I don't think he got worse. I feel like he can play in any system though.

SlingshotVv 01-04-2014 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR (Post 77288079)
I think only McD and to a lesser extent Stralman are playing at career average or better. I think
McD is fine defensively. I don't think he got worse. I feel like he can play in any system though.

He still plays solid defense, but he's always chasing players now, instead of reading the play and picking off a pass, or beating the open man to a shooting lane. He doesn't look as dominant this way. He and Staal reminded me of linebackers reading and reacting. Now they're like cornerbacks. It doesn't seem to suit them as well. But I agree, he can play this as well as it can be played

Kwayry 01-04-2014 01:18 AM

There are 3 arguments about this team.
1 - The players are fine but the system sucks.
2 - The players suck, the system is fine
3 - Both players and system suck.

I have no problem with any of these opinions but I do have a problem with people who are math challenged.
Here are the facts:
A - Except for McD, Zuke and Kreider, every player regressed in this system. That's one one out of the whole D corp and 2 out of the whole offense.
B - This defense went from borderline elite to borderline AHL.
C - Team still cannot score goals.

By the way fun fact about Mcdonagh, he leads the team in giveaways by a big margin in terms of raw numbers and in terms of per game. Yet he appears to be fitting the system. Not a shot against McDonagh, but it's another proof that the system does not fit EVERY Dman.


Player Team GP Giveaways Giveaways Per Game
612 Ryan McDonagh NYR 41 32 0.78
614 Dan Girardi NYR 41 24 0.59
615 Anton Stralman NYR 40 21 0.53
616 Michael Del Zotto NYR 32 19 0.59
617 John Moore NYR 39 18 0.46
620 Marc Staal NYR 31 15 0.48



You can advocate for either position 1 2 or 3, but you cannot ignore facts A, B and C.
Different posters have different favorite and not so favorite players. It's easy to blame the players.
DZ, seems to be the easiest to crap on even when he is scratched.
Girardi, #1 RD do not grow on trees, we know his strengths and his weaknesses and yet, every time something goes wrong, the point gets pointed at him. Trade him / Keep him either position has its merit, but you better have a p plan in place to replace him. The old platitude of " trading for a young RHD that take his place" is fantasy land. if 30 year old minute eating defensive Dman do not grow on trees, younger versions are worth their weight in gold.
Staal, went from Elite D to a journeyman, the injuries seem to be the prevalent excuse, but are they?
Stralman, funny that he was mentioned by AV as another Dman that was struggling (The famous every one by McD's quote from AV).
Moore, he is AV's favorite. Yet he is struggling more than he was under Torts.


Watching this team has become painful. Not only they can't score goals, but the Team has lost its identity, they are just a combination of lost players in a system that doesn't fit their skillset. What happened to Stepan, on pace for PPG? Brass who showed so much potential last season, Hagelin? And the big fish Callahan?
Again, just as a reminder, I am not arguing against each player, but arguing the critical mass of so many players struggling point to a systemic flaw.

I can only draw one conclusion: The players may suck and the previous system may have made them look better, but the current system is making them look worst for a fact.
The biggest surprise was the Defense, hence as I have said early on this season, Ulfie needs to be called out.

Paulie Walnutz 01-04-2014 01:46 AM

The man to man defense has been a disaster, whether that's AV or Ulfie I don't care. I was hoping Ulfie would teach the d to play with a little more bite and snarl but they're just as Charmin Ultra Soft as ever

Kokoschka 01-04-2014 06:03 AM

I wanted to bring this up, thanks. It's just mind boggling how a defense can go from top 5 in the league to lower mid tier just like that. I really don't get it. At all.

Kokoschka 01-04-2014 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kwayry (Post 77290051)
There are 3 arguments about this team.
1 - The players are fine but the system sucks.
2 - The players suck, the system is fine
3 - Both players and system suck.

I have no problem with any of these opinions but I do have a problem with people who are math challenged.
Here are the facts:
A - Except for McD, Zuke and Kreider, every player regressed in this system. That's one one out of the whole D corp and 2 out of the whole offense.
B - This defense went from borderline elite to borderline AHL.
C - Team still cannot score goals.

By the way fun fact about Mcdonagh, he leads the team in giveaways by a big margin in terms of raw numbers and in terms of per game. Yet he appears to be fitting the system. Not a shot against McDonagh, but it's another proof that the system does not fit EVERY Dman.


Player Team GP Giveaways Giveaways Per Game
612 Ryan McDonagh NYR 41 32 0.78
614 Dan Girardi NYR 41 24 0.59
615 Anton Stralman NYR 40 21 0.53
616 Michael Del Zotto NYR 32 19 0.59
617 John Moore NYR 39 18 0.46
620 Marc Staal NYR 31 15 0.48



You can advocate for either position 1 2 or 3, but you cannot ignore facts A, B and C.
Different posters have different favorite and not so favorite players. It's easy to blame the players.
DZ, seems to be the easiest to crap on even when he is scratched.
Girardi, #1 RD do not grow on trees, we know his strengths and his weaknesses and yet, every time something goes wrong, the point gets pointed at him. Trade him / Keep him either position has its merit, but you better have a p plan in place to replace him. The old platitude of " trading for a young RHD that take his place" is fantasy land. if 30 year old minute eating defensive Dman do not grow on trees, younger versions are worth their weight in gold.
Staal, went from Elite D to a journeyman, the injuries seem to be the prevalent excuse, but are they?
Stralman, funny that he was mentioned by AV as another Dman that was struggling (The famous every one by McD's quote from AV).
Moore, he is AV's favorite. Yet he is struggling more than he was under Torts.


Watching this team has become painful. Not only they can't score goals, but the Team has lost its identity, they are just a combination of lost players in a system that doesn't fit their skillset. What happened to Stepan, on pace for PPG? Brass who showed so much potential last season, Hagelin? And the big fish Callahan?
Again, just as a reminder, I am not arguing against each player, but arguing the critical mass of so many players struggling point to a systemic flaw.

I can only draw one conclusion: The players may suck and the previous system may have made them look better, but the current system is making them look worst for a fact.
The biggest surprise was the Defense, hence as I have said early on this season, Ulfie needs to be called out.

I'd like to know where this McD giveaways happened. He seems to be the only defender trying to generate some offense, so he has a higher risk of turning it over. Do you have any statistics for that?

HatTrick Swayze 01-04-2014 08:27 AM

Kwayry, awesome post

bmoak 01-04-2014 08:32 AM

Every coach in the Rangers' organization is a sack of crap, and that includes Hartford, where Jeff Beukeboom was supposed to turn around the Pack's "defense". Slats and his cronies and his loyalists need to be shown the door. It doesn't matter if Sather retires or is fired if the org is still filled with guys like Clark, Gorton, Schoenfeld, and Gernander. That includes cutting all ties with hangers-on from past glory days like Samuelsson, Beukeboom, and Graves.

Vickers8 01-04-2014 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze (Post 77285845)
Thread is long overdue. A top defense in the league shouldn't just become awful overnight.

Yes, Torts' system may have masked some mobility issues. Yes, the players are making some poor reads which is a huge issue. But they are also clearly being coached to play extremely aggressively, and it is moronic. I've said my piece on this a bunch so I will do what I can not to type a novel.

2nd goal tonight is again a classic example. Staal pressures Gibbons erratically and aggressively behind the net. It's an ok play. Would be better if he won the battle like he used to. I personally would like to see him hold his ground and limit passing lanes. But then you have 3 forwards just clueless in recognizing that they need to take Jokinen. Stralman at the other corner watching "his man" vs watching the slot.

More than disagreeing with the system, I have no ever loving idea how the staff has not recognized a need to make changes. Ya know so they don't leave Henrik out to dry every single night and are able to win some games. But nah. Be aggressive. Who cares about the slot.

I agree with you, but Brassard should have came down low and covered the guy in front

CharlieCharleschuk 01-04-2014 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kwayry (Post 77290051)
the critical mass of so many players struggling point to a systemic flaw

Totally agree. My question to add to this observation is: Can they overcome whatever mental obstacles that exist to learn the system, or is the system really flawed?

It seems at times that they get it - usually when Talbot is in net, though not always - and I'd like to understand why. If they do "just play harder" in front of the backup, then how do the coaches get them to perform that way when their starter is in net? Or - perhaps - the coaches try but the players refuse for some reason?

SlingshotVv 01-04-2014 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mio41 (Post 77296161)
I agree with you, but Brassard should have came down low and covered the guy in front

But that's the problem, or so it seems with man-to-man, it requires the forwards to be on top of their defensive game. Rewatch the Penguins 5th goal. Watch Boyle. Seriously, who's his man? He's in no mans land, gets beat to the first loose puck, that gets chipped behind the net. Then as Crosby is coming out front, Boyle's the only guy in front because the other defender had to follow his guy behind the net. Switching at that point would be too complicated, so we're stuck with Crosby making a move to get out in front, and Boyle making the most half-assed stick check ever; missing the puck, and then winds up inside the circle, not covering anyone at all. While he's gliding back into place the Pens score.

If they weren't stuck in man, Boyle should've chased the play behind the net, and not the right side dman. Which would've worked better because Stralman got out muscled and out bodied by Crosby, where Boyle might have had a better chance. If Boyle had a brain in his head he would've put a body on Crosby as he came from behind the net with the puck, instead of his goofy stick check. Again, if a natural defender is in front of the net, he's probably not going to try and poke check the most dangerous player int he game about to walk out front. The play was a complete cluster****, and in my opinion a large part of that is due to the system being a huge cluster****.

I feel like this happens over and over again, and is exasperated by a system that seems ill-suited to this roster, and maybe the modern NHL

Edit: link to Kunitz's goal. can't figure out how to link directly to a specific event on nhl.com, so just click on the last goal that made the game 5-2 http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/con...vidchn-highlts

eco's bones 01-04-2014 09:00 AM

Somehow--just somehow I think Tortorella would have got more out of the entire team than AV and his coaching staff has. Not going to sit here and type that it wasn't time for Tortorella to go but you know this guy would be all over this team. He never could stand much for lackadaisical lazy play. There might be a lot of hurt feelings at this point and Kreider might still be in the minors and Zucc getting a lot less minutes--so there's that too.

The Rangers team are soft in any case. Hard to figure in a way when you look at the coaches when they were players. AV was a tough guy, Samuelsson had a long history of conflicts with other players and LaCroix was a 4th line tough guy.

The mentality of certain players is weak--Richards, Nash, Brassard, Pouliot, Del Zotto. Falk is our fake tough guy who can't get into the lineup and Dorsett will fight anyone (bless his heart) and get his ass kicked all year long. This is a reactive team when it comes to physical play asked to be a proactive team when it comes to the way it plays. That doesn't make sense to me.

As far as the D go--DZ has played like crap--worse than crap when playing on the right side. AV seems to have a hard time figuring that out. Staal has struggled all year. One can give him a pass with all the **** he's been through. McDonagh's been great--Girardi less so but better lately. Stralman was very good for a while but the last 15 games or so has sucked.

Vickers8 01-04-2014 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlingshotVv (Post 77296847)
But that's the problem, or so it seems with man-to-man, it requires the forwards to be on top of their defensive game. Rewatch the Penguins 5th goal. Watch Boyle. Seriously, who's his man? He's in no mans land, gets beat to the first loose puck, that gets chipped behind the net. Then as Crosby is coming out front, Boyle's the only guy in front because the other defender had to follow his guy behind the net. Switching at that point would be too complicated, so we're stuck with Crosby making a move to get out in front, and Boyle making the most half-assed stick check ever; missing the puck, and then winds up inside the circle, not covering anyone at all. While he's gliding back into place the Pens score.

If they weren't stuck in man, Boyle should've chased the play behind the net, and not the right side dman. If Boyle had a brain in his head he would've put a body on Crosby as he came from behind the net with the puck, instead of his goofy stick check.

I feel like this happens over and over again, and is exasperated by a system that seems ill-suited to this roster, and maybe the modern NHL

Good post I agree

Bleed Ranger Blue 01-04-2014 09:30 AM

Long overdue. The man to man defensive scheme stinks, hasn't led to increased 5 on 5 opportunities/offense and, perhaps worst of all, the toughness ulf played with during his career hasn't rubbed off one bit.

Time to move to a zone/hybrid defensive philosophy. This team is confused and overmatched

Bleed Ranger Blue 01-04-2014 09:35 AM

Remember when people were *****ing about the 6 goalie system and how point men were getting too many chances?

Hmmm in hindsight, ill pick pointmen getting chances from 60 feet out vs the best forwards in the world getting chances from 6 feet out

RangerBoy 01-04-2014 09:46 AM

Always absolving the players of any blame. Does it ever stop?

Girardi wasn't very good last season. He was OK.

Staal hasn't been the same player since the first concussion. He was starting to regain his form and boom. Puck in the eye. Another concussion. He still has trouble seeing the puck. Certain plays give him trouble.

How come McDonagh is McDonagh? Is he that much better than the other players?

DZ has been a disaster more than being competent NHL player.

The Canucks were a solid team playing the same system.

The same players who complained about the previous coaching staff shouldn't be absolved of any blame.

Ail 01-04-2014 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RangerBoy (Post 77298485)
Always absolving the players of any blame. Does it ever stop?

Girardi wasn't very good last season. He was OK.

Staal hasn't been the same player since the first concussion. He was starting to regain his form and boom. Puck in the eye. Another concussion. He still has trouble seeing the puck. Certain plays give him trouble.

How come McDonagh is McDonagh? Is he that much better than the other players?

DZ has been a disaster more than being competent NHL player.

The Canucks were a solid team playing the same system.

The same players who complained about the previous coaching staff shouldn't be absolved of any blame.

Yes.

Clausewitz 01-04-2014 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kwayry (Post 77290051)
There are 3 arguments about this team.
1 - The players are fine but the system sucks.
2 - The players suck, the system is fine
3 - Both players and system suck.

I have no problem with any of these opinions but I do have a problem with people who are math challenged.
Here are the facts:
A - Except for McD, Zuke and Kreider, every player regressed in this system. That's one one out of the whole D corp and 2 out of the whole offense.
B - This defense went from borderline elite to borderline AHL.
C - Team still cannot score goals.

By the way fun fact about Mcdonagh, he leads the team in giveaways by a big margin in terms of raw numbers and in terms of per game. Yet he appears to be fitting the system. Not a shot against McDonagh, but it's another proof that the system does not fit EVERY Dman.


Player Team GP Giveaways Giveaways Per Game
612 Ryan McDonagh NYR 41 32 0.78
614 Dan Girardi NYR 41 24 0.59
615 Anton Stralman NYR 40 21 0.53
616 Michael Del Zotto NYR 32 19 0.59
617 John Moore NYR 39 18 0.46
620 Marc Staal NYR 31 15 0.48



You can advocate for either position 1 2 or 3, but you cannot ignore facts A, B and C.
Different posters have different favorite and not so favorite players. It's easy to blame the players.
DZ, seems to be the easiest to crap on even when he is scratched.
Girardi, #1 RD do not grow on trees, we know his strengths and his weaknesses and yet, every time something goes wrong, the point gets pointed at him. Trade him / Keep him either position has its merit, but you better have a p plan in place to replace him. The old platitude of " trading for a young RHD that take his place" is fantasy land. if 30 year old minute eating defensive Dman do not grow on trees, younger versions are worth their weight in gold.
Staal, went from Elite D to a journeyman, the injuries seem to be the prevalent excuse, but are they?
Stralman, funny that he was mentioned by AV as another Dman that was struggling (The famous every one by McD's quote from AV).
Moore, he is AV's favorite. Yet he is struggling more than he was under Torts.


Watching this team has become painful. Not only they can't score goals, but the Team has lost its identity, they are just a combination of lost players in a system that doesn't fit their skillset. What happened to Stepan, on pace for PPG? Brass who showed so much potential last season, Hagelin? And the big fish Callahan?
Again, just as a reminder, I am not arguing against each player, but arguing the critical mass of so many players struggling point to a systemic flaw.

I can only draw one conclusion: The players may suck and the previous system may have made them look better, but the current system is making them look worst for a fact.
The biggest surprise was the Defense, hence as I have said early on this season, Ulfie needs to be called out.

This is among the most sensible team analyses I've read in a while -- and I don't mean just on this board. Fair play to you my friend.


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