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-   -   Does Dallas deserve to be mentioned with Detroit, New Jersey, and Colorado? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=15797)

Blackjack 09-30-2003 06:34 PM

Does Dallas deserve to be mentioned with Detroit, New Jersey, and Colorado?
 
It seems like these 4 teams are reguarded as the 4 power teams of the league, since no other team has won the cup since the Rangers of '94...

But does is Dallas really deserve to be placed on the same level? Here are the last 9 cup winners

95: NJ
96: Col
97: Det
98: Det
99: Dallas
00: NJ
01: Col
02: Det
03: NJ

Dallas won it once, right smack in the middle, and hasn't won it since. The only four players left from that team that I can remember are Modano, Zubov, Matvichuk, and Lehtinen. 4 great players to be sure, but 4 players none the less. They also never beat a power team from the East like Colorado did (NJ) or Detroit did (Philly)

Don't get me wrong, I do think they're a great team, quite possibly the best in the Wester Conference, but I would rate them closer to teams like Vancouver and Ottawa that are good teams, but haven't really proven it yet.

Hitman* 09-30-2003 06:35 PM

Well, they are a perennial contender so I would see it fitting that they are up there. But they should be mentioned last.

AvsGuy 09-30-2003 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackjack
The only four players left from that team that I can remember are Modano, Zubov, and Lehtinen. 4 great players to be sure, but 4 players none the less.

good strategy, wow the masses with your mathematical skills, and then wrongly present your argument, not once, but 3 times!

:lol: just kiddin, cheap shot, but man that sounded dumb when i first read it!

as for Dallas, absolutely. they have better depth on lines 1-4 then the other 3 teams, and while their defense took a big hit by losing Hatcher and Sydor, they added Numminen, and Boucher is getting better all the time. that said, until Turco proves it in the playoffs, he's little better of a post-season solution than David Aebischer... :dunno:

guinness 09-30-2003 06:48 PM

Not really, they won the SC in 1999 and made it to the finals in 2000, but Detroit still has 3 Cups, same with NJ and Colorado with 2. Good regular season stats are fine, but winning in the playoffs is where it really matters.

Blackjack 09-30-2003 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AvsGuy
good strategy, wow the masses with your mathematical skills, and then wrongly present your argument, not once, but 3 times!

:lol: just kiddin, cheap shot, but man that sounded dumb when i first read it!

as for Dallas, absolutely. they have better depth on lines 1-4 then the other 3 teams, and while their defense took a big hit by losing Hatcher and Sydor, they added Numminen, and Boucher is getting better all the time. that said, until Turco proves it in the playoffs, he's little better of a post-season solution than David Aebischer... :dunno:

Actually what happened was that I remembered Richard Matvichuk while I was typing the sentence. I remembered to edit the 3's but I forgot to add the name in :joker:

The Frugal Gourmet 09-30-2003 08:41 PM

Why not just rank them 4th?

:)

Ajacied 09-30-2003 08:47 PM

I don't see why not.

They've won 6 of the last 7 division title's, have won the president's trophy twice, finishing at the top of the West 3 times during the same span, and also reached the finals, twice.

The Avs have reached the finals twice in the last decade, winning 2.
The Stars have reached the finals thrice in the last decade, winning 1.

Last year, they reached further into the playoffs then both the Avs and Wings after finishing the season as the top team of the West with 111 points. More then the Devils as well..

Including their 90 point "dissaster" in 2001, they still average 105.14 points a season since Hitchcock arrived, so since 7 years ago.

On paper they easily matchup with any of them, the only con is their rather unproven coaching staff, but the same can be said about the Wings and Avs.

Wingboy2999 09-30-2003 08:50 PM

In terms of regular season, definetely. But only having one Cup hurts them. I think it goes.

1a. Detroit
1b. NJ
3. Colorado
4. Dallas

Burke's Evil Spirit 09-30-2003 08:59 PM

The question I'd ask is does Detroit and Colorado deserve to be on the same level as Dallas and New Jersey! Colorado has the Swiss Miss in net, and Detroit is pinning their hopes on a #1 center who scored 12 goals last season and a 38-year-old goaltender who played left wing in a roller hockey league last season.

Let's not forget that Dallas was (regular season-wise) the best team in the West last season, and IMO suffered the least among the "big three" in terms of offseason losses. Of course, if Lacroix goes out and gets somebody and Hasek returns to form this all changes.

Ironchef Chris Wok* 09-30-2003 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
The question I'd ask is does Detroit and Colorado deserve to be on the same level as Dallas and New Jersey! Colorado has the Swiss Miss in net, and Detroit is pinning their hopes on a #1 center who scored 12 goals last season and a 28-year-old goaltender who played left wing in a roller hockey league last season.

Let's not forget that Dallas was (regular season-wise) the best team in the West last season, and IMO suffered the least among the "big three" in terms of offseason losses. Of course, if Lacroix goes out and gets somebody and Hasek returns to form this all changes.

I assume you made a typo. Dominik Hasek is 28? HOLY SCHMOLY, THE REDWINGS INVENTED A TIME MACHINE!!!

What's next, Steve Yzerman as a 27 year old?

Epsilon 09-30-2003 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
The question I'd ask is does Detroit and Colorado deserve to be on the same level as Dallas and New Jersey! Colorado has the Swiss Miss in net, and Detroit is pinning their hopes on a #1 center who scored 12 goals last season and a 28-year-old goaltender who played left wing in a roller hockey league last season.

Let's not forget that Dallas was (regular season-wise) the best team in the West last season, and IMO suffered the least among the "big three" in terms of offseason losses. Of course, if Lacroix goes out and gets somebody and Hasek returns to form this all changes.

He's talking historically over the course of the last 10 years or so.

As for the question, I definitely think they do deserve to be considered at the same level. They have won a Stanley Cup and been to the finals three times, and have been a consistent top 4 team in the conference that has produced 6 of the past 9 Stanley Cup champions.

topshelf331 09-30-2003 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurupt
The year after the Devils win the cup , notice a trend ?

Yeah, except NJ skipped dallas this last season. So maybe that chain is broken.

Freudian 09-30-2003 09:13 PM

They are one of those teams that has a good shot at making the finals, and has been for the last 5 years. So they definately deserve to be mentioned with the others when you talk about being a contender for this period. When talking about the last 10 years or so, there are only four teams that have been class contenders for the cup for more than 1-2 years. And those are of course the four teams that have won the cup.

Burke's Evil Spirit 09-30-2003 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironchef Chris Wok
I assume you made a typo. Dominik Hasek is 28? HOLY SCHMOLY, THE REDWINGS INVENTED A TIME MACHINE!!!

What's next, Steve Yzerman as a 27 year old?

Typo? What typo? :)

MVP 09-30-2003 09:35 PM

Dallas is one cup away from this elite category.

Ajacied 09-30-2003 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MVP
Dallas is one cup away from this elite category.

So you have them:

Detroit
Jersey
Colorado

Dallas

Rest

Epsilon 09-30-2003 09:39 PM

If I had to rank them with no ties, I would personally probably have it

1. Detroit
2. New Jersey
3. Colorado
4. Dallas

With someone in a very distant 5th, probably one of Philadelphia, Toronto, Buffalo, Ottawa, or St. Louis.

MVP 09-30-2003 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modano = God
So you have them:

Detroit
Jersey
Colorado

Dallas

Rest


Definately, it is TOP 3, Dallas and the rest likes you say. Although the ranking of the rest would be extremely confusing with Flyers, Sens, Leafs, Blue and Canucks all mix together.


And the scary thing about the Dallas is they don't really have an obvious weakness this season, maybe other than a depth physical defenceman, but that can easily be solve, so they can very well win the CUP that place them in the TOP 3 category this season, however, it is a long season where a lot can happen.

Ajacied 09-30-2003 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epsilon
If I had to rank them with no ties, I would personally probably have it

1. Detroit
2. New Jersey
3. Colorado
4. Dallas

With someone in a very distant 5th, probably one of Philadelphia, Toronto, Buffalo, Ottawa, or St. Louis.

I agree with your rankings, simply based on the number of cups.

However, the Stars reached the Stanley Cup Finals as many times as either the Wings or Devils and more then the Avs during the last decade. This, and their constant regular season succes definitely has them in the same breath. Much less when you consider their actual status this season which seems as good, if not better then most.

And if you want to go current, the Stars finished ahead of the Avs and the Wings for both the regular season as the playoffs.

meehan 10-01-2003 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modano = God
However, the Stars reached the Stanley Cup Finals as many times as either the Wings or Devils and more then the Avs during the last decade.

The Northstars reaching the finals in 1991 doesn't count in favor of the current stars as that team is very different from what the stars are now. I mean if you bring up teams from that era, why not put the Pittsburn Penguins in the discussion as well, being that they have 2 cups and a few 1st place finishes. Let's keep this to 1995 and beyond as that is when this current streak of the big 4 only winning the cup began.

The stars didn't really start to become dominant until 1996-1997, while the other three teams had already established themselves before then. Also, the stars only made it to the Conference finals 3 times while each of the other three teams have made it at least 4 times. They have made it to the finals twice, which is two less than Detroit or NJ. Unlike Colorado they didn't win both times they made it. All in all, I would say they are a half notch below the other three.

If I had to rank them it would be like:

New Jersey
Detroit
Colorado

Dallas


Next Tier(Ottawa, St. Louis, Philly, etc etc)

Goulet17 10-01-2003 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modano = God
I agree with your rankings, simply based on the number of cups.

However, the Stars reached the Stanley Cup Finals as many times as either the Wings or Devils and more then the Avs during the last decade. This, and their constant regular season succes definitely has them in the same breath. Much less when you consider their actual status this season which seems as good, if not better then most.

And if you want to go current, the Stars finished ahead of the Avs and the Wings for both the regular season as the playoffs.

You can't throw in the North Stars final appearance in 1991 as factoring in whether the Stars have been among the elite teams since New Jersey won the cup in 1994.

Logically anyway you cut it, it is the Devils and Red Wings as the top two teams followed by the Avs. The Stars are a distant fourth, simply because they have one cup win. Regardless of final appearances, the ultimate measuring stick for a team is cup wins. That is what will be remembered 30 years from now, not division titles, not presidents trophys.

In that respect, the Stars probably shouldn't be considered one of the elite teams of this era, because I'm not sure 1 total cup win in the decade qualifies a team as one of the best of its era. It may be unfair, but until the Stars win another cup, they are a distant fourth behind the Avs.

Enoch 10-01-2003 05:34 AM

While I place Dallas below detroit, NJ, and the avalanche, you have to look at what they have done.

Does anyone remember Dallas beating the Avs in 7??? Dallas consistenly beats all of these teams, very convincingly I might add, in the regular season. I'm not sure why they have not excelled in the post-season, but it is certainly not b/c they are not on the same par as the 'top 3'. Maybe they have just do not have the same playoff drive as the other teams.

Oilers Hockey 10-01-2003 05:39 AM

Dallas was a whole different team back then though. The new and improved Av's would effortlessly beat the Stars in 4 or 5 games if they met in the playoff again.

Enoch 10-01-2003 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hemskyfan
Dallas was a whole different team back then though. The new and improved Av's would effortlessly beat the Stars in 4 or 5 games if they met in the playoff again.

The stars demolished the Avs last season....I dont see how you can argue this. True the Avs added an insane amount of firepower and revamped their horrid bottom lines, but they also lost Patrick Roy, bryan marchment, and greg devries. I think the Avs are better this season, but I still say that to say the teams are anything less than on equal footing is absurd...

Ajacied 10-01-2003 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hemskyfan
Dallas was a whole different team back then though. The new and improved Av's would effortlessly beat the Stars in 4 or 5 games if they met in the playoff again.

Uuuh, the Avs have NEVER beaten the Stars in a playoff series ever, and the biggest opposing player that gave us the hardest trouble is gone. That, and the Stars are 13-5-5 in the regular season vs the Avs over the last 5 years, including a 3-0-1 record last season.

And if you think the Avs would sweep the current Stars with Aebischer in net, you better think twice.


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