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Account Terminated 02-17-2014 01:55 PM

Trade Proposal Thread v8
 
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Jee 02-17-2014 02:01 PM

I neknominate Crimson Skorpion

Zorro 02-17-2014 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yianik
All the points you make are true, but for LA it has to be all about gunning for the Cup this year and what Markov will add to their chances for a Cup now. Not what he does next year or how many good years he has left etc because for one thing they have no idea whether he will resign.

Look i'm habs fan too, but the best way to get most out of this trade, is to guage how many teams are actually interested in Markov. What this means is a team that needs a PMD/QB PP and is gunning for the cup.

Only after that you can start estimating his value...i would be happy with a 1st (late) + very good prospect OR a 2nd + an excellent/can't miss prospect.

S Bah 02-17-2014 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorro (Post 80047069)
Look i'm habs fan too, but the best way to get most out of this trade, is to guage how many teams are actually interested in Markov. What this means is a team that needs a PMD/QB PP and is gunning for the cup.

Only after that you can start estimating his value...i would be happy with a 1st (late) + very good prospect OR a 2nd + an excellent/can't miss prospect.

One need only look at the Las Vegas odds against the Habs winning the SC to know that is not happening, without ref help or food poisoning, IMHO.

That leaves getting help for future teams, IMHO, prospects or draft choices are the best bets. No team gunning for the SC is going to trade away Toffoli, that is dreaming, IMHO. Possibly getting Pearson and Vey, along with their 1st, could be viable and very helpful to the Habs depth at forward until Collberg, DLR, Hudon or Lehkonen are ready, DLR representing the best in that regard IMHO.

Playing for the Habs will be a positive when our latest draft picks, McCarron & Crisp along with Tinordi & Beaulieu are regulars. Then the Collberg, Hudon & Lehkonen types can flourish, only when players of elite talent have linemates that can provide room(protection from goons) will star types be attracted to playing for the Habs.

When the Habs have these players, playing regularly with our core group, adding the playmaking of Collberg & Lehkonen can push them to a SC win and not before IMHO.

The blueprints of the last ten SC winners spell out the need for character types with scoring ability, when the fans stop trying to predict ** a player} that can do this, then the GM can do what has to be done, not before.:shakehead

yianik 02-17-2014 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S Bah (Post 80049829)
One need only look at the Las Vegas odds against the Habs winning the SC to know that is not happening, without ref help or food poisoning, IMHO.

That leaves getting help for future teams, IMHO, prospects or draft choices are the best bets. No team gunning for the SC is going to trade away Toffoli, that is dreaming, IMHO. Possibly getting Pearson and Vey, along with their 1st, could be viable and very helpful to the Habs depth at forward until Collberg, DLR, Hudon or Lehkonen are ready, DLR representing the best in that regard IMHO.

Playing for the Habs will be a positive when our latest draft picks, McCarron & Crisp along with Tinordi & Beaulieu are regulars. Then the Collberg, Hudon & Lehkonen types can flourish, only when players of elite talent have linemates that can provide room(protection from goons) will star types be attracted to playing for the Habs.

When the Habs have these players, playing regularly with our core group, adding the playmaking of Collberg & Lehkonen can push them to a SC win and not before IMHO.

The blueprints of the last ten SC winners spell out the need for character types with scoring ability, when the fans stop trying to predict ** a player} that can do this, then the GM can do what has to be done, not before.:shakehead

I take your points, and it may be that suggesting we try to get Toffoli or Silfverberg is just a pipe dream. Thing is what we know is that teams who really think they can win a Cup sometimes just go all out for it, meaning they really pay up. I don't see Markov alone getting such a good player or prospect, so I have thrown out that we add to try to get that quality piece.

I have specifically mentioned these two because the rumours are both LA and Anaheim are looking for a guy like Markov and Markov is the best like Markov. Importantly, neither Toffoli or Silfverberg appear to have been that important to their teams success this year and therefore their teams would likely be better off for a Cup run minus them plus Markov and say Gionta to replace their scoring.

I remember the Gainey trade of Neuwendyk ( sp ?) as an example where Calgary landed highly regarded prospect Iginla. Sure Dallas lost heavy in that exchange in terms of talent, and yes maybe they would have won Cups with Iginla, but with Joe they did win a Cup. IF we are looking to move Markov I just want MB to try for the quality player, if nobody is offering that even with our adding, then fine.

Analyzer* 02-17-2014 05:27 PM

So, will we need to deal one of our defensive prospects ?

Luiginho 02-17-2014 06:03 PM

Subban for Hamhuis.

Do it Bergy.

vokiel 02-17-2014 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Analyzer (Post 80055095)
So, will we need to deal one of our defensive prospects ?

We're not contending for anything, we don't have to trade ****.

lafitte25 02-17-2014 06:15 PM

I still think that the habs are a work in progress (for too many years now!) Trading Andrei Markov maybe yes, maybe no, why? If you trade him and do not make the playoffs it wil be a catastrophy here in MTL independently of whatever you have received in exchange, if you keep him and he brings you in the playoffs the money you make in a few playoffs game pay his salary for next year so???? And you never know what can happen in the playoffs, the real question is, as far as i am concern, does Andrei Markov still wants to play in MTL taking back seat to PK & Beaulieu in a year or two at the most that is the real question!

habsrule22 02-17-2014 07:24 PM

maybe look at what return we could get for markov minus what we would have to pay for someone like kulikov We should get a bigger return for markov than what the price for kulikov Short term we may not be as good but down the road we would be

vokiel 02-17-2014 09:15 PM

Here's an idea: Instead of trying to pawn Gionta to NJD, why don't we try getting Stephen Gionta in a habs jersey?

Brière for Stephen Gionta 1 for 1. ;)

TheKid73 02-17-2014 09:48 PM

Don't know if this was already discussed or not, but today on Twitter I seen that there are rumors of a possible PA Parenteau deal with montreal. Involving a Defenseman or Briere + a draft pick. I think it'd be a good deal if it were Briere and nothing more than a 3rd Rounder. What do you guys think of a deal like this?

Beendair Donedat 02-17-2014 10:02 PM

These are always fun:

The Habs biggest concerns are size in the top 6, and specifically on the right wing. Our Right Wingers include - Gionta, Gallagher, (sometimes Briere), Bourque, etc.... Bourque is the only one with good size and he's not a top 6 player. Gallagher and Gionta are both heart and soul players but one of those guys is making way too much money for his production.... I hope he walks as a UFA. If you could move Briere or Bourque - preferably Briere - in exchange for Hemsky, and let Hemsky go, you would free up some much needed cash for the off season moves that need to be made. Than you also have to figure out if you're dealing Andrei Markov or not...

In the Offseason:

Subban is coming into a huge raise.

Dale Weise and Ryan White will require minor raises.

Does Murray come back on the defense?

As a hypothetical I'd probably look at something like this if were running the show:

Trade Number One:

To Anaheim Ducks: Andrei Markov

To Montreal Canadiens: Devante Smith-Pelly, 2014 1st Round Pick


Trade Number Two:

To Edmonton Oilers: Rene Bourque, 3rd Round Pick

To Montreal Canadiens: Ales Hemsky


Off Season UFA Signings:

Paul Stastny (UFA Center)
Matt Greene (UFA Defenseman)


Habs new lineup looks like this:

Pacioretty - Desharnais - Smith-Pelly
Galchenyuk - Stastny - Gallagher
Prust - Plekanec - Briere
Bournival - White - Weise
Moen

Gorges - Subban
Beaulieu - Greene
Emelin - Pateryn

I know that still leaves Eller out of the lineup, but I'd try and deal him for either picks or prospects, or hold on to him and deal a veteran at the trade deadline....Either way his play has dropped off significantly.

Statsny would be great second line center and would open up space for Galchenyuk to work some magic while Gallagher does the grunt work. Smith-Pelly gives the team a big right handed forward that should be able to find some chemistry with Pacioretty and Desharnais.... Most of all you'd have more size and talent in your top 6, with a very solid third line that can score and play the shutdown role.

Frozenice 02-17-2014 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beendair Donedat (Post 80065559)
These are always fun:

Habs new lineup looks like this:

Pacioretty - Desharnais - Smith-Pelly
Galchenyuk - Stastny - Gallagher
Prust - Plekanec - Briere
Bournival - White - Weise
Moen

Gorges - Subban
Beaulieu - Greene
Emelin - Pateryn

I know that still leaves Eller out of the lineup, but I'd try and deal him for either picks or prospects, or hold on to him and deal a veteran at the trade deadline....Either way his play has dropped off significantly.

Statsny would be great second line center and would open up space for Galchenyuk to work some magic while Gallagher does the grunt work. Smith-Pelly gives the team a big right handed forward that should be able to find some chemistry with Pacioretty and Desharnais.... Most of all you'd have more size and talent in your top 6, with a very solid third line that can score and play the shutdown role.

I think if you bring in Stastny he'll play on a line with Pacioretty and DD would be the odd man out not Eller.

Also, why would you put a marginal NHL player on your 1st line and the Markov trade is terrible, we need more then that for him.

Beendair Donedat 02-17-2014 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frozenice (Post 80066213)
I think if you bring in Stastny he'll play on a line with Pacioretty and DD would be the odd man out not Eller.

Also, why would you put a marginal NHL player on your 1st line and the Markov trade is terrible, we need more then that for him.

Fair Enough.

I don't think Desharnais will ever be the odd man out in Montreal. If his last name was Smith than yes you're right.

I think Smith-Pelly is going to be a good talent, and that he would thrive on a line with Desharnais/Pacioretty. He would be a young, right handed big body that can score and drop the gloves from time to time.

I don't think you're going to get much more than a first and a prospect for Markov. I just don't see the market being there for his services and the fact that he isn't young anymore.

Halifaxhab* 02-18-2014 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beendair Donedat (Post 80067217)
Fair Enough.

I don't think Desharnais will ever be the odd man out in Montreal. If his last name was Smith than yes you're right.

I think Smith-Pelly is going to be a good talent, and that he would thrive on a line with Desharnais/Pacioretty. He would be a young, right handed big body that can score and drop the gloves from time to time.

I don't think you're going to get much more than a first and a prospect for Markov. I just don't see the market being there for his services and the fact that he isn't young anymore.

Not to mention, when does Galchenyuk get shifted to centre? He will be moved there, and soon. Does that mean DD (or even Pleks) get's moved?

bsl 02-18-2014 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lafitte25 (Post 80056687)
I still think that the habs are a work in progress (for too many years now!) Trading Andrei Markov maybe yes, maybe no, why? If you trade him and do not make the playoffs it wil be a catastrophy here in MTL independently of whatever you have received in exchange, if you keep him and he brings you in the playoffs the money you make in a few playoffs game pay his salary for next year so???? And you never know what can happen in the playoffs, the real question is, as far as i am concern, does Andrei Markov still wants to play in MTL taking back seat to PK & Beaulieu in a year or two at the most that is the real question!

Why do you care that Molson makes money in the playoffs to pay Markov's salary? It's not your money. What matters is Markov's cap hit, not Molson's profit. Which he makes.

firewagon77* 02-18-2014 10:16 AM

Bergevin don't overpay for rent a players,Montreal is hot the top contender for the stanley cup anyway,if you can get rent a players like Hemsky,Boyes,and Robidas for no more than a mediocre prospect or a 3rd round pick then fine.

Monctonscout 02-18-2014 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheKid73 (Post 80065047)
Don't know if this was already discussed or not, but today on Twitter I seen that there are rumors of a possible PA Parenteau deal with montreal. Involving a Defenseman or Briere + a draft pick. I think it'd be a good deal if it were Briere and nothing more than a 3rd Rounder. What do you guys think of a deal like this?

I would do Parenteau-Briere straight up, no way I add a draft pick. Colorado is trying to dump him, keep the picks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beendair Donedat (Post 80065559)
These are always fun:

The Habs biggest concerns are size in the top 6, and specifically on the right wing. Our Right Wingers include - Gionta, Gallagher, (sometimes Briere), Bourque, etc.... Bourque is the only one with good size and he's not a top 6 player. Gallagher and Gionta are both heart and soul players but one of those guys is making way too much money for his production.... I hope he walks as a UFA. If you could move Briere or Bourque - preferably Briere - in exchange for Hemsky, and let Hemsky go, you would free up some much needed cash for the off season moves that need to be made. Than you also have to figure out if you're dealing Andrei Markov or not...

In the Offseason:

Subban is coming into a huge raise.

Dale Weise and Ryan White will require minor raises.

Does Murray come back on the defense?

As a hypothetical I'd probably look at something like this if were running the show:

Trade Number One:

To Anaheim Ducks: Andrei Markov

To Montreal Canadiens: Devante Smith-Pelly, 2014 1st Round Pick


Trade Number Two:

To Edmonton Oilers: Rene Bourque, 3rd Round Pick

To Montreal Canadiens: Ales Hemsky


Off Season UFA Signings:

Paul Stastny (UFA Center)
Matt Greene (UFA Defenseman)


Habs new lineup looks like this:

Pacioretty - Desharnais - Smith-Pelly
Galchenyuk - Stastny - Gallagher
Prust - Plekanec - Briere
Bournival - White - Weise
Moen

Gorges - Subban
Beaulieu - Greene
Emelin - Pateryn

I know that still leaves Eller out of the lineup, but I'd try and deal him for either picks or prospects, or hold on to him and deal a veteran at the trade deadline....Either way his play has dropped off significantly.

Statsny would be great second line center and would open up space for Galchenyuk to work some magic while Gallagher does the grunt work. Smith-Pelly gives the team a big right handed forward that should be able to find some chemistry with Pacioretty and Desharnais.... Most of all you'd have more size and talent in your top 6, with a very solid third line that can score and play the shutdown role.

I hate the Markov trade. If that's the best you can do sign him for 2-3 years instead of having a trainwreck 2nd pair of Beaulieu and Greene. That's a recipe for disaster, Greene was never great, now he has declined since injury, he wouldn't be any better than Murray...who is now #6.

Not a fan of trading picks for Hemsky, I don't have an affinity for Bourque but Hemsky is a shell of his former self and signed at 5 mil/year. Best I would do is 1 for 1 with Edmonton keeping 1 mil each year.

We already have a great #2 center in Plekanec, would make zero sense to dump a pile of money and term into Stastny. The one thing we need at center is for Eller to wake the f$%$% up.

Habs 4 Life 02-18-2014 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monctonscout (Post 80082023)
I would do Parenteau-Briere straight up, no way I add a draft pick. Colorado is trying to dump him, keep the picks.



I hate the Markov trade. If that's the best you can do sign him for 2-3 years instead of having a trainwreck 2nd pair of Beaulieu and Greene. That's a recipe for disaster, Greene was never great, now he has declined since injury, he wouldn't be any better than Murray...who is now #6.

We already have a great #2 center in Plekanec, would make zero sense to dump a pile of money and term into Stastny. The one thing we need at center is for Eller to wake the f$%$% up.

If Markov is traded, Bergevin better have a plan going forward. Someone that can play top minutes. He will have no choice to go via UFA or make a big trade at the draft. If they feel Markov can't give us 2-3 more years then I'm fine with dealing him, but they better replace him or we are going to be in deep ****

As for the Anaheim trade, it would be better if we would ask for the Sens 1st rounder since they own it( Bobby Ryan trade )

yianik 02-18-2014 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life (Post 80082215)
If Markov is traded, Bergevin better have a plan going forward. Someone that can play top minutes. He will have no choice to go via UFA or make a big trade at the draft. If they feel Markov can't give us 2-3 more years then I'm fine with dealing him, but they better replace him or we are going to be in deep ****

As for the Anaheim trade, it would be better if we would ask for the Sens 1st rounder since they own it( Bobby Ryan trade )

Given the Canucks wanting to retool, if our pro scouts still think Edler is still a top 2 d-man then we could offer them Gorges and a prospect/ pick or two. That way we would have two top guys that could eat big minutes and if Markov was moved we wouldn't be as desperate to get as high a quality top 4 guy to make up for his loss. Though the better the player the stronger the D.

Monctonscout 02-18-2014 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life (Post 80082215)
If Markov is traded, Bergevin better have a plan going forward. Someone that can play top minutes. He will have no choice to go via UFA or make a big trade at the draft. If they feel Markov can't give us 2-3 more years then I'm fine with dealing him, but they better replace him or we are going to be in deep ****

As for the Anaheim trade, it would be better if we would ask for the Sens 1st rounder since they own it( Bobby Ryan trade )

You nailed it right there.

You can't replace Mrakov's 22-23 minutes internally for the next 100 or so games. Maybe if they kept Diaz, but Subban and Gorges already paly big minutes, Emelin is already around 20, Beaulieu, Murray Drewiske and Bouillon should not be playing 20+ minutes, Beaulieu should eventually but I would not count on him in a big role this year or next.

Monctonscout 02-18-2014 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yianik (Post 80082869)
Given the Canucks wanting to retool, if our pro scouts still think Edler is still a top 2 d-man then we could offer them Gorges and a prospect/ pick or two. That way we would have two top guys that could eat big minutes and if Markov was moved we wouldn't be as desperate to get as high a quality top 4 guy to make up for his loss. Though the better the player the stronger the D.

He's looked terrible this year. Plus it would be plugging one hole and opening up another, you'd still be missing a 22 minute guy for Gorges minutes.

yianik 02-18-2014 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monctonscout (Post 80083031)
He's looked terrible this year. Plus it would be plugging one hole and opening up another, you'd still be missing a 22 minute guy for Gorges minutes.

Yes, he has, that's why I used weasel words about whether our pro scouts still see him as a top 2. Its either he has just fallen off a cliff, nagging injury, or it might be the system Torts wants him to play.

As Habs fans we know coaches who don't play a guy right or try to hem a player into a ridged system ( hello JM ) can mess up players performance. I have no idea. But if our pro scouts are convinced he just needs a change of scenery, then we pick up a top 2 d-man who will eat 25min per along with PK, leaving only 70min of D time to be split between the other 4 defencemen. If the bottom pair get 15 each then the other pairing average 20 min. each.

Even without moving Markov we should look at Edler because if he gets his game back he would be a huge upgrade on Gorges, and on a great contract. Now if our scouts think he has lost it and is too risky to get, then fair enough and forget it.

BubbleGumPlant 02-18-2014 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monctonscout (Post 80082945)
You nailed it right there.

You can't replace Mrakov's 22-23 minutes internally for the next 100 or so games. Maybe if they kept Diaz, but Subban and Gorges already paly big minutes, Emelin is already around 20, Beaulieu, Murray Drewiske and Bouillon should not be playing 20+ minutes, Beaulieu should eventually but I would not count on him in a big role this year or next.


This. Markov becoming UFA this summer instead of next puts the Habs in an odd position because they need to address this, but only for next season. 2 seasons from now, 2015-16, both Tinordi and Beaulieu should be NHL ready. The Habs will have a top 5 in Subban, Gorges, Emelin, Tinordi and Beaulieu. So the only major problem is having enough defense depth for 2014-2015.

Option 1: If we could sign Markov to a 1-year deal (doubt it) then that would be the best option. Unfortunately, there isn't a great 2nd option.

Option 2a: If you sign him to 2 years or more, that will take playing time away from Tinordi, Bealieu or Emelin, or you are forced to trade Gorges, which then causes an issue once Markov is unable to handle 20 mins + which could be relatively soon. At the same, Markov's value declines.

Option 2b: If you trade Markov this year at the trade deadline, you have a really big hole at the #3 spot. Any UFA signings will either result in 1 or more of the following: not signing a true #3, overpayment and/or term too long. To trades for a #3 to replace Markov would mean to give away significant value elsewhere... something that the Habs lack in... we have little trade value up front, on D or in our prospect pool.


If I had to play GM I would probably opt for option 2b since option 1 is not possible. I would actually alternate Subban's linemate throughout the year in Gorges, Beaulieu and Tinordi to give them all some experience playing 22-23 minutes. I would play Galchenyuk at Center and accept that 2014-2015 will just be a tough year.


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