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-   -   Hockey Invented In England ... Not Canada (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1677587)

LadyStanley 05-24-2014 11:40 AM

Hockey Invented In England ... Not Canada
 
http://www.torontosun.com/2014/05/24...nd--not-canada

Toronto Sun article on research done in advance of book on how hockey originated in UK.

sawchuk1971 05-24-2014 02:05 PM

Hockey Invented In England ... Not Canada
 
http://www.torontosun.com/2014/05/24...nd--not-canada

Quote:

Swedish medical doctor Carl Giden, countryman and sportswriter Patrick Houda and Montreal computer analyst Jean- Patrice Martel, 53, are putting their research on the table, ahead of a new book on the subject.

"So many people have such strong view that hockey's birthplace is Canada," said Martel, who heads up SIHR's Montreal chapter. "But my Swedish colleagues have kept looking the past 20 years and were always finding conflicting information. So they kept going. A couple of people had pointed them to the British origins, a totally different direction. But then they started to find hundreds of references. And a lot of the British ice hockey clubs had old books about where their teams had started. It was fascinating."

Gilden and Houda not only found the sport had flourished as far back as the 17th or 18th centuries, but that it was commonly called hockey. They even turned up some celebrity testimonials: * Lincolnshire Chronicle, Feb. 16, 1838: "On Saturday last, an amusing scene took place on a splendid sheet of ice which covered Croxby Pond. A large party from the neighbouring residence of Geo. Alington, Esq., of Swinhop House, drove up in sledges to the pond. The ladies were drawn upon the ice in traineau, while the gentlemen performed various feats upon their skates: after going through several quadrilles, reels and playing a warmly contested game at hockey, the party partook of a cold collation, and again stepping into their sledges, glided swiftly away.

Ohashi_Jouzu 05-24-2014 04:13 PM

Well, if there's evidence suggesting it goes back possibly as far as the 17/18th centuries, then I submit that it's highly possible that it was still developed here, and simply "taken back" by someone who made the return trip across the pond at some point. Seems to me that even at that early date, if it actually originated in England there would be a larger/clearer trail of "proof". Everything else invented in "Europe" from basically the 16th/17th century onward seems to be pretty well chronicled, so I don't see why a game/sport would be any different. The mere fact that tales of its origins are so varied and nebulous suggests to me that the specifics were lost in the earlier days of the colonies - not the motherland.

tarheelhockey 05-24-2014 08:09 PM

IMO, this is the most compelling piece of evidence:

"* Letter from Charles Darwin, March 1, 1853, to son William, who had followed his father to Shrewsbury School: "My Dear Old Willy ... have you got a pretty good pond to skate on? I used to be very fond of playing at Hocky on the ice in skates.""

Something about the tone of that last line, it gives the impression that ice hockey games were a fairly regular and familiar event that didn't need much explaining.

And presumably, Charles' experiences would have taken place around the 1830s.

jumptheshark 05-24-2014 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tarheelhockey (Post 85597575)
IMO, this is the most compelling piece of evidence:

"* Letter from Charles Darwin, March 1, 1853, to son William, who had followed his father to Shrewsbury School: "My Dear Old Willy ... have you got a pretty good pond to skate on? I used to be very fond of playing at Hocky on the ice in skates.""

Something about the tone of that last line, it gives the impression that ice hockey games were a fairly regular and familiar event that didn't need much explaining.

And presumably, Charles' experiences would have taken place around the 1830s.

As a Canadian living in Europe and who has done a lot of travels into Scandinavian countries--I have been saying for years that it was invented over here

Iain Fyffe 05-25-2014 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu (Post 85590763)
Seems to me that even at that early date, if it actually originated in England there would be a larger/clearer trail of "proof".

There is a very large, clear trail of evidence. I was at the presentation earlier this evening when they launched the book at the SIHR AGM, and their argument rests on extremely solid footing. You may not be aware of the evidence, as much of it has been uncovered relatively recently, but there is no shortage of it.

the edler 05-25-2014 02:22 AM

Oh, Charles Darwin played hockey too? But, what if it comes up the sport is actually 6000 years old and were invented by dinosaurs? ;)

Ohashi_Jouzu 05-25-2014 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe (Post 85605115)
There is a very large, clear trail of evidence. I was at the presentation earlier this evening when they launched the book at the SIHR AGM, and their argument rests on extremely solid footing. You may not be aware of the evidence, as much of it has been uncovered relatively recently, but there is no shortage of it.

I mean, of course, proof of its "establishment"/invention/creation/whatever as opposed to simply anecdotal evidence of the viewing or playing of a seemingly already proliferated game. If there's more of that, I can't wait for it to be shared. Like I postulated earlier, if the true origins of the game were in Britain, in particular, I would expect a clearer chain of evidence leading back to someone staking the claim (or perhaps invitations to view/participate in/offer feedback on this new activity) - presumably before the end of their "little ice age" that ended around 1850 (if we're now looking back this far, or further) - as so much else is documented domestically (England) from the period about the goings on at "frost fairs" on the Thames (accounts as well as mugs and other artifacts from these survive from at least the late 1600s), etc.

Otherwise, it makes more sense to me that it sprung out of the colonies, where frozen flat water in winter has been consistently more abundant, and there was a much greater likelihood of such information never reaching the pages of any sort of correspondence or historical account in the settlements' extreme infancy. Having done the yearly school trips to Port Royal and Lunenburg (some of the earliest settlements in this country) as a child, it's not lost on me just how relatively little written record there is from these parts (vs "contemporary" Britain) over the first couple hundreds of years, and what the priorities were when it came to what ever actually made it to "print" on this side of the ocean at the time. Compare with the entire 1700s account of cricket (which is dominated in the press of the day by the betting aspect of it). After freedom of the press in 1696, it's hard to imagine that anything "invented" or made popular in Britain would be so hard to pin down in terms of origins, unless it came before that, or from a different place in following years.

Fugu 05-25-2014 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu (Post 85609161)
I mean, of course, proof of its "establishment"/invention/creation/whatever as opposed to simply anecdotal evidence of the viewing or playing of a seemingly already proliferated game. If there's more of that, I can't wait for it to be shared. Like I postulated earlier, if the true origins of the game were in Britain, in particular, I would expect a clearer chain of evidence leading back to someone staking the claim (or perhaps invitations to view/participate in/offer feedback on this new activity) - presumably before the end of their "little ice age" that ended around 1850 (if we're now looking back this far, or further) - as so much else is documented domestically (England) from the period about the goings on at "frost fairs" on the Thames (accounts as well as mugs and other artifacts from these survive from at least the late 1600s), etc.

Otherwise, it makes more sense to me that it sprung out of the colonies, where frozen flat water in winter has been consistently more abundant, and there was a much greater likelihood of such information never reaching the pages of any sort of correspondence or historical account in the settlements' extreme infancy. Having done the yearly school trips to Port Royal and Lunenburg (some of the earliest settlements in this country) as a child, it's not lost on me just how relatively little written record there is from these parts (vs "contemporary" Britain) over the first couple hundreds of years, and what the priorities were when it came to what ever actually made it to "print" on this side of the ocean at the time. Compare with the entire 1700s account of cricket (which is dominated in the press of the day by the betting aspect of it). After freedom of the press in 1696, it's hard to imagine that anything "invented" or made popular in Britain would be so hard to pin down in terms of origins, unless it came before that, or from a different place in following years.


It seems you're ignoring the evidence being presented and trying to make conclusions on what makes sense to you.

You also appear to be saying in the first paragraph that evidence of proliferation is needed to conclude the origin was indeed in England?

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your premise.

Ohashi_Jouzu 05-25-2014 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fugu (Post 85612723)
It seems you're ignoring the evidence being presented and trying to make conclusions on what makes sense to you.

You also appear to be saying in the first paragraph that evidence of proliferation is needed to conclude the origin was indeed in England?

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your premise.

Or maybe you're ignoring the difference between written accounts claiming invention/origin and written accounts of playing/proliferation? Also, you seem to be ignoring the fact that something originating from outside of Britain would have to proliferate to eventually be observed and written about in Britain.

But whatever.

Fugu 05-25-2014 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu (Post 85613303)
Or maybe you're ignoring the difference between written accounts claiming invention/origin and written accounts of playing/proliferation? Also, you seem to be ignoring the fact that something originating from outside of Britain would have to proliferate to eventually be observed and written about in Britain.

But whatever.


I'm not ignoring anything. I asked you to clarify your statement.

With regard to an origin in North America, then being transported back to England, does the time line work? One of the more recent debates is discussing what was chronicled in Montreal in 1875. What date/location are you referring to as potentially preceding the dates presented by this research?

Canadiens1958 05-25-2014 11:56 AM

Charles Darwin Meet William Dawson
 
The 1853 Charles Darwin letter while interesting serves to introduce John William Dawson into the discussion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_William_Dawson

From Pictou, NS to Edinburgh University by the early 1840, Edinburgh U is Darwin's Alma Mater. Dawson returned to Canada, Eventually McGill. Renowned scientist as well, old Protestant High School and the CEGEP I attended named after him.

So the Darwin/Dawson intersection has to be explored from the standpoint of how and when was Charles Darwin introduced to ice hockey.

Fugu 05-25-2014 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 (Post 85613723)
The 1853 Charles Darwin letter while interesting serves to introduce John William Dawson into the discussion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_William_Dawson

From Pictou, NS to Edinburgh University by the early 1840, Edinburgh U is Darwin's Alma Mater. Dawson returned to Canada, Eventually McGill. Renowned scientist as well, old Protestant High School and the CEGEP I attended named after him.

So the Darwin/Dawson intersection has to be explored from the standpoint of how and when was Charles Darwin introduced to ice hockey.


Are you suggesting Pictou introduced hockey to England, or at least, to Darwin?

Canadiens1958 05-25-2014 12:06 PM

Franklin's Lost Expedition
 
Arctic explorer John Franklin:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin's_lost_expedition

Doomed last voyage. Provisions are such that there does not seem to be room for recreational Equipment. Earlier perhaps. Still the issue of native Canadian guides or Canadian experienced crew on board has to be explored.

Ohashi_Jouzu 05-25-2014 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fugu (Post 85613489)
I'm not ignoring anything. I asked you to clarify your statement.

With regard to an origin in North America, then being transported back to England, does the time line work? One of the more recent debates is discussing what was chronicled in Montreal in 1875. What date/location are you referring to as potentially preceding the dates presented by this research?

Well, with successful colonization of Nova Scotia as early as 1600, anything is possible, obviously. And I'm not postulating any date/location, I'm making logical extensions. If hockey is chronicled in Montreal circa 1875, but other accounts exist which pre-date that (ex: Darwin circa 1853), then we're obviously still looking for a point in time and space that pre-date Montreal 1875 if we're looking for "origin", aren't we. And like I said, it's hard to imagine any accounts of a domestic "invention" (be it a game or gadget) avoiding the record of time that was made possible in England by the freedom of the press in 1696. The papers of the 1700s were absolutely rife with accounts of betting involving cricket, for example, so I'd expect at least some trail of development leading through England between 1696 and 1853 if origin lies in there somewhere. All I've ever seen presented are anecdotes recounting the observation of an already established and identifiable game called "hockey", or suppositions on its origins or possible predecessors in terms of a kind of common "ancestor".

Ohashi_Jouzu 05-25-2014 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fugu (Post 85613879)
Are you suggesting Pictou introduced hockey to England, or at least, to Darwin?

As the county that shares the same body of water with another area staking the hockey birthplace claim (Windsor/Wolfville), and separated by less than 50 miles, is that really a giant leap?

Canadiens1958 05-25-2014 12:14 PM

William Dawson
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fugu (Post 85613879)
Are you suggesting Pictou introduced hockey to England, or at least, to Darwin?

William Dawson and Charles Darwin both studied at Edinburgh University well before 1853.

Asking how and when was ice hockey introduced to Charles Darwin, given that there is at least one possible Canadian source that also studied at Edinburgh University where Charles Darwin studied.

The underlying assumption seems to be that it was not possible for hockey to be introduced to Great Britain or England from Canada. Yet well before the dates in question there were regular trips by British soldiers, merchants, immigrants, academics, politicians, etc to North America who returned with information. Likewise North Americans of similar backgrounds, who brought new information to Great Britain.

Equally possible that the introduction went from Canada to Great Britain.

Fugu 05-25-2014 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu (Post 85614225)
As the county that shares the same body of water with another area staking the hockey birthplace claim (Windsor/Wolfville), and separated by less than 50 miles, is that really a giant leap?


I'm not questioning the leap of faith or logic, but focusing on whether or not scientific method is being adhered to-- are these conclusions or suggestions?

Ohashi_Jouzu 05-25-2014 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 (Post 85614259)
Equally possible that the introduction went from Canada to Great Britain.

Even more likely, imo, for a variety of reasons; some already expressed.

Fugu 05-25-2014 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 (Post 85614259)
William Dawson and Charles Darwin both studied at Edinburgh University well before 1853.

Asking how and when was ice hockey introduced to Charles Darwin, given that there is at least one possible Canadian source that also studied at Edinburgh University where Charles Darwin studied.

The underlying assumption seems to be that it was not possible for hockey to be introduced to Great Britain or England from Canada. Yet well before the dates in question there were regular trips by British soldiers, merchants, immigrants, academics, politicians, etc to North America who returned with information. Likewise North Americans of similar backgrounds, who brought new information to Great Britain.

Equally possible that the introduction went from Canada to Great Britain.


Hence the 'debate'. :)

Ohashi_Jouzu 05-25-2014 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fugu (Post 85614377)
I'm not questioning the leap of faith or logic, but focusing on whether or not scientific method is being adhered to-- are these conclusions or suggestions?

What?? :laugh:

Fugu 05-25-2014 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu (Post 85614441)
What?? :laugh:


A conclusion (technically speaking) is backed by evidence gained through a scientific method/process. You may posit questions, but each answer has a trail of evidence that shows why or how you got from point A to point B.


What C58 is doing is "scenario generation". You always want to bring up any possibilities that can punch holes in a hypothesis, but adhering to scientific methodology will help you work through all of these and decide which scenarios or options can be discarded.

Ohashi_Jouzu 05-25-2014 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fugu (Post 85614531)
A conclusion (technically speaking) is backed by evidence gained through a scientific method/process. You may posit questions, but each answer has a trail of evidence that shows why or how you got from point A to point B.


What C58 is doing is "scenario generation". You always want to bring up any possibilities that can punch holes in a hypothesis, but adhering to scientific methodology will help you work through all of these and decide which scenarios or options can be discarded.

Again... what?? You seem to have me mistaken for someone who is trying to arrive at conclusions of any kind. I mean, from the very beginning I was careful to use the phrasing "it makes more sense to me".

Sorry (er... not) for approaching this as a conversation as opposed to a forensic investigation. :laugh: I don't think I can distill my contribution so far any better than:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Me
If hockey is chronicled in Montreal circa 1875, but other accounts exist which pre-date that (ex: Darwin circa 1853), then we're obviously still looking for a point in time and space that pre-date Montreal 1875 if we're looking for "origin", aren't we.

and

Quote:

Originally Posted by Me
I'd expect at least some trail of development leading through England between 1696 and 1853 if origin lies in there somewhere. All I've ever seen presented are anecdotes recounting the observation of an already established and identifiable game called "hockey", or suppositions on its origins or possible predecessors in terms of a kind of common "ancestor".

The stuff we're "missing" is the stuff that could get lost in a "primitive" world struggling toward the future (i.e. a colony), not a world that has continually excelled in reporting and recording the happenings of the past (let alone boasting innovation/"accomplishment") since at least 1696 (i.e. England).

Canadiens1958 05-25-2014 12:59 PM

1632 Pere Gabriel Sagard
 
In his book L'histoire du hockey au Québec 1990, page 24 and 25 Donald Guay, referenced previously introduces Père Gabriel Sagard, 1632 French Catholic missionary referencing Huron and other native youth playing on ice with curbed sticks or "snow serpents" (Aaron and Moses religious analogy).

British soldiers, businessmen - traders and others in Canada and the USA well before the end of the 18th century interacted during the winter with the Huron tribes and other Indian Nations.

In the same book, Guay has an illustration of early or primative field hockey in France from the 17th century.


Stewart Culin, 1975, Games of the North American Indians would be a contributing source.

http://books.google.ca/books/about/G...wC&redir_esc=y

Uncle Rotter 05-25-2014 01:05 PM

From four years ago:
http://www.sihrhockey.org/new/pdfs/s...%20Preface.pdf


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