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-   -   TBN: Goalie carousel to stop in camp (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=167862)

signalIInoise 08-31-2005 09:14 AM

TBN: Goalie carousel to stop in camp
 
http://buffalonews.com/editorial/20050831/1070115.asp

Of note:
Quote:

Miller, 25, is the least likely to be traded. He has been pegged as Buffalo's goalie of the future, makes a modest $779,000 and can be optioned to and from the minors without needing to clear waivers this season.
Huh? I thought he was vulnerable this season. Can anyone clarify?

Quote:

"This is my job, and I'm going to camp to kick some butt, to stand on my head so that there's no confusion," Biron said. "I don't want anybody to look at this and wonder."
I wish you well, Marty -- but, dammit -- be that goaltender in October - January, too.

Also, looks like Noronen is expecting a trade.

Fan-of-#9 08-31-2005 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by signaliinoise
http://buffalonews.com/editorial/20050831/1070115.asp

Of note:


Huh? I thought he was vulnerable this season. Can anyone clarify?



I wish you well, Marty -- but, dammit -- be that goaltender in October - January, too.

Also, looks like Noronen is expecting a trade.

Great News on all fronts...

lecherous 08-31-2005 11:53 AM

Ugh, if they trade Noronen...mark my words, they'll come to regret it.

I honestly don't understand what the big deal is with Miller.

TVanek26* 08-31-2005 11:59 AM

Just make Miller your starter.He's already 25,he won't get much younger.

Ruckus007 08-31-2005 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanielBriere48
Just make Miller your starter.He's already 25,he won't get much younger.


I would argue he won't get any younger....

Rowley Birkin 08-31-2005 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lecherous
Ugh, if they trade Noronen...mark my words, they'll come to regret it.

I honestly don't understand what the big deal is with Miller.

i'm with you, sir.

i think Mika can be the so called 'next Kipper'. not sure if he'd be quite as good, but still a standout none the less.

Biron has proven time and again he is not good enough season long. add his contract and he is the obvious choice to move.

Miller is all hype. he has big upside, but i see some scary weaknesses with him. and to that, he's done nothing at the NHL level so far.

Tra La La 08-31-2005 02:29 PM

I think it shows a lack of faith in the Orginizations own ability to judge talent. They clearly have no faith in thier own ability to make the right choice.

bsenskmolson 08-31-2005 02:32 PM

I agree, I think Miller is all hype. Yeah, he had a good season in the AHL, but when he faced teams like the Binghamton Senators with a few NHLers on their team, he faltered. In one game against Bingo he gave up 5 goals in the first 14 minutes and was yanked...

signalIInoise 08-31-2005 02:51 PM

Forgive me for this... ;)

Sabres goalies as hold-em analogy:

Noronen: King-Jack off-suit. Possible straight, possible high pairs.
Miller: Ace-2 suited. Possible low straight, possible flush, possible straight flush, possible high pair.
Biron: pocket 9s. Trips, boat or maybe the middle pair is good enough.

Any one of them is tough to let go before the flop. I'm willing to let camp be the flop. Odds are with Biron, but let's just see if the year off hasn't hurt him.

Buffaloed 08-31-2005 02:52 PM

It's a no-brainer that Miller's the one that should be dealt. When the hype is replaced by the reality that his potential is as a solid starter (same as Biron and Noronen), not a franchise goalie, his value is going to drop. The Sabres can get a good player that can help them win now by dealing Miller. At the very least they can get a first round pick.

Noronen isn't going to fetch more than a 2nd rounder or another team's salary dump (eg Aaron Miller).

Biron will only bring back a salary dump-type player as payroll space has to be created to acquire him. Maybe there's a fit with another team that needs a goalie looking to unload a $2 million player, but it's a longshot he'd be as useful as what could be had for Miller.

I haven't seen anything in Miller that leads me to believe he'll develop into anything better than Biron or Noronen. It makes no sense spending the next 2-3 years to prove it. Trade the guy while he still has high value to do something to significantly improve the team.

If Noronen emerges as the starter this season, Biron can be dealt at the deadline or dealt early in the 2006 offseason as a RFA when teams have cap room. If Biron shows he's the man, lock him up long-term.

Miller was selected in the 5th round. He wasn't a need player when he was selected and isn't now unless he's viewed as a franchise-type goalie. It was a fortunate accident that he turned into a top prospect. It's about time the Sabres cashed in on him.

Jamie Walker 08-31-2005 03:02 PM

I agree with "Buffaloed". I feel we should trade Miller, and go with Biron, and Noronen.

joechip 08-31-2005 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by signaliinoise
Forgive me for this... ;)

Sabres goalies as hold-em analogy:

Noronen: King-Jack off-suit. Possible straight, possible high pairs.
Miller: Ace-2 suited. Possible low straight, possible flush, possible straight flush, possible high pair.
Biron: pocket 9s. Trips, boat or maybe the middle pair is good enough.

Any one of them is tough to let go before the flop. I'm willing to let camp be the flop. Odds are with Biron, but let's just see if the year
off hasn't hurt him.

S/N, I love your analysis here. And, of course, depending on position, Noronen and Miller are both folds before the flop if you're playing it tight. Personally, A2s is only playable in late position, with only limpers in front of you. Good stealing hand.

KJos is a fold early, a call in middle position, and a raise if folded to you. Any action in front of you is a fold unless you're short-stacked.

Me? I'll take pocket 9's any day of the week over those two hands.

Ta,

joechip 08-31-2005 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamie Walker
I agree with "Buffaloed". I feel we should trade Miller, and go with Biron, and Noronen.

I still say that we should keep only the one who wins the spot in camp. The other two should go. They'll both need 'fresh starts' if they don't win the #1 job.

There are plenty of capable backup goalies out therre... Go get one and pay them similar money to Miller/Noronen.

Ta,

Tra La La 08-31-2005 03:57 PM

The problem with Biron for me is, I've seen his best. It's not good enough. He is a mediocre Nhl starting goalie. I'd compare him to Jamie Storr. If there is'nt better in House, go outside.

Lock3Boys 08-31-2005 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fan-of-#9
Great News on all fronts...


I disagree. Any scenario which has Marty Biron on our roster come opening night, is a bad one.

The dude is a C+ goalie, that somehow has a B+ reputation with some fans. I wish other teams valued Marty as high as you did, we could probably fetch a Boynton/Redden type defenseman straight up, if teams thought that highly of him.

Time to trade the bag of wind, for a bucket of pucks. Just my opinion.

Hobey Baker 08-31-2005 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buffaloed
It's a no-brainer that Miller's the one that should be dealt. When the hype is replaced by the reality that his potential is as a solid starter (same as Biron and Noronen), not a franchise goalie, his value is going to drop. The Sabres can get a good player that can help them win now by dealing Miller. At the very least they can get a first round pick.

Noronen isn't going to fetch more than a 2nd rounder or another team's salary dump (eg Aaron Miller).

Biron will only bring back a salary dump-type player as payroll space has to be created to acquire him. Maybe there's a fit with another team that needs a goalie looking to unload a $2 million player, but it's a longshot he'd be as useful as what could be had for Miller.

I haven't seen anything in Miller that leads me to believe he'll develop into anything better than Biron or Noronen. It makes no sense spending the next 2-3 years to prove it. Trade the guy while he still has high value to do something to significantly improve the team.

If Noronen emerges as the starter this season, Biron can be dealt at the deadline or dealt early in the 2006 offseason as a RFA when teams have cap room. If Biron shows he's the man, lock him up long-term.

Miller was selected in the 5th round. He wasn't a need player when he was selected and isn't now unless he's viewed as a franchise-type goalie. It was a fortunate accident that he turned into a top prospect. It's about time the Sabres cashed in on him.

The only time we can use "no brainer" when dealing with this mess is when describing the GM who'll be making an "informed" goaltending decision. Do you really think Miller could bring back a first-rounder? I don't see any team being that desperate today to make that deal on hype alone. Is the market really there right now? I'm not sure, but of course I'd do the deal in a heartbeat if it could be had. I think he's the most tradeable of Buffalo's assets between the pipes. Still, it doesn't mean that he should automatically be the one to go because he has shown promise and he comes cheap.

We keep hearing that the Sabres want to be financially responsible this season, so it seems that unloading Biron and his $2M+ salary while keeping two guys that could do an equal or better job at a much cheaper price *combined* would equally be a no brainer. Biron had a nice win/loss record in 2003-04, which could entice a team to snag him....or make a case for him to stay. His salary is pretty competitve for a starter in this league. Now I feel like Darcy, and I can't make a choice. This is why I don't see the situation as a no brainer. I still lean towards dumping Biron....

All in all, I really don't care who gets dealt as long as the mess is cleaned up. I'd prefer to keep Miller because I see him as an excellent talent. He played on good teams at MSU, but it's not a fortunate accident that he became a top propsect. How can you explain his success in Rochester? I'd like to see how he does at Team USA's Olympic camp next week.

In the end, it probably won't matter that much anyways. Look at the roster.

Lapps 08-31-2005 04:24 PM

This analogy may be off, but I see some similarities between the current goalie controversy and the Bills' Flutie/Johnson debate. Biron is Flutie and Noronen/Miller are Johnson:

We have an incumbent starter whose skills and abilities are a known commodity. The starter has good games and bad games, and while the starter isn't necessarily a weakness, it doesn't provide a perfect long-term solution. On a really good team this average starter is fine and won't necessarily hurt them, but it's also a position that, if filled with better quality, can transform the average, competing team into a more lethal one.

Then we have the back-ups. Potential and raw skills make them seem a better fit, but the question is can they perform to the best of their abilities? They also have longer careers ahead of them, and possibly could solidify this vital position for many years.

I felt with the quarterback controversy as I do now: we need to see what the back-up can do. By keeping them on the bench we just delay the inevitable "what-can-they-do" question for another season, which in turn delays the potential of the team as a whole back. Obviously with Rob Johnson, he was awful and not the answer at quarterback, but I still feel it was the right decision to get rid of Flutie because you had to see what you had. Otherwise we would have learned Rob Johnson was dreadful a year later.

As has been mentioned, Miller (and Noronen) aren't getting any younger. We need to see what at least one of them can do. With this competative-yet-average team we've had for YEARS (even going back into the Hasek years, as he hid a lot of deficiencies) and looks like we'll have for years to come, clearly Biron can't bring us into the playoffs. Or if we squeak in I doubt his ability to lead us far. Let's see if the others can. If not, we sign someone later/draft a new one.

Hockeyfan6781 08-31-2005 04:41 PM

I'd like to see Noronen get a good shot at the #1. I think he has the most talent out of the 3, the problem has been the organization, Lindy Ruff in perticular has never show and confidence in him.

Buffaloed 08-31-2005 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sonic Reducer
I think it shows a lack of faith in the Orginizations own ability to judge talent. They clearly have no faith in thier own ability to make the right choice.

That's been my gripe with Regier almost from day one. His fear of the consequences from doing the wrong thing exceeds his confidence that he'll do the right thing. He waits and waits, and then waits some more, and gets great value when he finally pulls the trigger. Then everyone sings his praises. No one ever bothers to factor in the harm his waiting game does. Regier has wasted full seasons waiting for the "right" deal to move guys (Barnaby, Peca, Gratton) that everyone knew would be moved. I'm sure people can think of others. The uncertainty and distraction this slow waltz causes keeps the team from moving forward and is divisive. I want the players focused on hockey, not wondering when their friend will be traded, or whether it'll be package deal including himself or other friends of his, or whether the return package will cost him ice time. Regier is perceived as a stabilizing influence on the franchise. That perception couldn't be more wrong.

Buffaloed 08-31-2005 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KB

We keep hearing that the Sabres want to be financially responsible this season, so it seems that unloading Biron and his $2M+ salary while keeping two guys that could do an equal or better job at a much cheaper price *combined* would equally be a no brainer.

I thought I made it clear that if Biron were dealt the Sabres would have to take a similar salary back from the other team. They're not operating in a vacuum.

Tra La La 08-31-2005 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buffaloed
I thought I made it clear that if Biron were dealt the Sabres would have to take a similar salary back from the other team. They're not operating in a vacuum.



Thats where the Indecision killed them again. They should have Intensley looked at Norronen's season in Finland. Millers in Rochester. And Birons Last season In Buffalo. Made Thier Choice. Then Decided to Qualify Biron or not.

Hobey Baker 08-31-2005 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buffaloed
I thought I made it clear that if Biron were dealt the Sabres would have to take a similar salary back from the other team. They're not operating in a vacuum.

I don't see how that's the only scenario under which Biron would be traded. Is it not possible for a prospect/pick package coming back in return? Sure, they can then add salary as part of a separate deal once the space is cleared (the Sabres have some spare parts to move). Even then, is it guaranteed to be a junk/salary dump return?

You make compelling points, but I just don't see it being as easy a decision as you lay it out to be. Thematically, that's what I was getting at.

reckoning 08-31-2005 07:45 PM

For all the people who are anxious for Buffalo to get rid of Biron, I have one question:

Who would you put in goal to replace him?

Noronen? Anybody could tell last year that the team played much better with Biron than Noronen. The only "logic" behind keeping Noronen seems to be: "He`s from Finland, and so is Kiprusoff, and look how good he did last year."If we`re using birthplaces as a deciding factor, Biron comes out ahead in that category too.

Miller? If he wins the job then fine. But don`t just give it to him before the season - make him win it. Being a highly-regarded prospect is all well and good, but there`s still a difference between the AHL and the NHL. After all, about five years ago the Hockey News had Biron ranked as the #1 prospect in the entire NHL, and according to some of you guys, he sucks.

A goalie outside the organization? Who`s available? What UFA goalies are out there? Steve Shields? Byron Dafoe? Ron Tugnutt? That`s hardly an upgrade. As for trading for a quality goalie, exactly who do we have as trade bait? Nobody`s going to trade a Theodore or a Luongo for Derek Roy and a draft pick. Unless you`re looking to get rid of at least two of Vanek, Briere and Kalinin; you`re not going to acquire anybody better than what we have.

I say we trade Noronen to a GM with a Finnish fetish and go with Biron/Miller. We could do far worse.

CelticSabre 08-31-2005 07:53 PM

I would like to see a Norenon /Miller tandem with a 60/40 split in games to Mika. But I like how Darcy is most likely going to wait till camp. It would be stupid to just trade one before you get a good look at all 3 in camp and see how theyve progressed.

Fan-of-#9 08-31-2005 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buffaloed
It's a no-brainer that Miller's the one that should be dealt. When the hype is replaced by the reality that his potential is as a solid starter (same as Biron and Noronen), not a franchise goalie, his value is going to drop. The Sabres can get a good player that can help them win now by dealing Miller. At the very least they can get a first round pick.

The only team that would even consider trading a first round pick for Miller is Detroit because a) it will probably be a late pick, b) they could use a goalie and c) he's from Michigan. Even with that I would consider it a slight miracle if we got their first rounder for Ryan Miller. Miller is not a young prospect anymore, he's 25.


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