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Orange 10-04-2003 05:26 AM

Ryder vs Ward
 
I've seen many poster's lineup that have Ward as our 3rd line forward and Ryder playing the fourth line ... Now a question comes to mind : Why is that ?

I feel it's an evidence right now that Ryder is ahead of Ward in our depth chart. I would be very surprised if Ward played anywhere else than the fourth line. I feel Ryder has established himself like a potential (but limited) offensive weapon that plays with heart while Ward is still only a mucker ... Anyway I'd like to read from those that don't see it that way and especially the reasons why they see Ward ahead of Ryder at this time.

SwedenRulez 10-04-2003 05:30 AM

I think that Ryder is a bit ahead of Ward because of his good training camp. Jason Ward is a 4th liner IMO, this is his place, but with the injuries (Koivu, Kilger) maybe he will be on the 3rd.

RE-HABS 10-04-2003 05:37 AM

Ryder has played really well on a line with Perreault and Bulis, he could be 3rd line this season if he plays well and sticks with this group.

Koivu is obviously 1st line and Ribs, Zed and Hossa are second...but who plays with Koivu???? Audette hopefully steps up, but then they lost Bulis to another line....does Kilger go back to the wing, because that line needs some size and some protection if it wants to do anything offesnively out there this season.

Medicine Twin 10-04-2003 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange
I've seen many poster's lineup that have Ward as our 3rd line forward and Ryder playing the fourth line ... Now a question comes to mind : Why is that ?

I feel it's an evidence right now that Ryder is ahead of Ward in our depth chart. I would be very surprised if Ward played anywhere else than the fourth line. I feel Ryder as established himself like a potential (but limited) offensive weapon that plays with heart while Ward is still only a mucker ... Anyway I'd like to read from those that don't see it that way and especially the reasons why they see Ward ahead of Ryder at this time.

Ward outplayed Ryder last year in the AHL regular season AND in the playoffs. Ward HAS played in the NHL, while Ryder has not. In fact Ward has played really well in his most recent NHL stint. Don't get too far ahead of yourselves guys. Until Ryder shows he can produce more than Ward in the NHL, he shouldn't be ahead of him on the depth chart.

I still find it funny that I was one of the only ones who thought Ryder would even make the team just a month ago, now I'm trying to tell people not to get too high on him...

Estimated_Prophet 10-04-2003 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange
I've seen many poster's lineup that have Ward as our 3rd line forward and Ryder playing the fourth line ... Now a question comes to mind : Why is that ?

I feel it's an evidence right now that Ryder is ahead of Ward in our depth chart. I would be very surprised if Ward played anywhere else than the fourth line. I feel Ryder as established himself like a potential (but limited) offensive weapon that plays with heart while Ward is still only a mucker ... Anyway I'd like to read from those that don't see it that way and especially the reasons why they see Ward ahead of Ryder at this time.

Ryder has yet to prove that he can play at the NHL level. Pre-season games are not NHL calibre games and it is very common to see career minor leaguers excel in the pre-season only to disappear to the minor league affilliate for the remainder of the season. I am not saying that Ryder is going to be a career minor leaguer but at this point Ward simply is more suited to playing an NHL style game than Ryder is.

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing a 4th line of Langdon, Begin and Ryder with a 3rd line made up of Sundstrom, Kilger and Ward. I would be happy to see softies like Juneau and Dackell released or traded for a bag of pucks as we need more players with some sandpaper in their game because this team is currently a very enjoyable team to play against as there is little fear in the opposition's minds concerning getting hit hard or being roughed up.

As much as we need toughness and other players such as Ribeiro, Perreault and Audette need to go I also beleive there is no spot on this team for Gordie Dwyer. He can't skate, he has no skills and he simply is a pathetic fighter. Langdon is an upgrade over Dwyer in every category and as much as Dwyer seems like a good team guy there simply is not enough room on this team for 2 enforcers, especially when one of them can't get the job done on the ice.

Sorry for going off on my own little tangent on this post but one thing kind of led to another.

Orange 10-04-2003 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medicine Twin
Ward outplayed Ryder last year in the AHL regular season AND in the playoffs.

Outplayed ? Don't you think that's a bit of an exageration ? Ward netting 5 more points in the regular season and 4 more in the playoff doesn't warrant the term "outplayed". I feel both accomplished just as much in the AHL last year.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medicine Twin
Ward HAS played in the NHL, while Ryder has not.

Come on now be serious. Ward's very limited NHL experience does not even make the balance tilt one notch ...


Quote:

Originally Posted by Medicine Twin
Until Ryder shows he can produce more than Ward in the NHL, he shouldn't be ahead of him on the depth chart.

8 meager points ? That sure is a big challenge ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medicine Twin
I still find it funny that I was one of the only ones who thought Ryder would even make the team just a month ago, now I'm trying to tell people not to get too high on him...

And that's besides the point. We're just trying to evaluate Ryder vs Ward as of now, not saying Ryder is the next saviour (you get the point I hope).

Orange 10-04-2003 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet
Ryder has yet to prove that he can play at the NHL level. Pre-season games are not NHL calibre games and it is very common to see career minor leaguers excel in the pre-season only to disappear to the minor league affilliate for the remainder of the season.

I agree completely with that. But as it can be said for Ryder, it can also be said of Ward. Ward doesn't have enough NHL experience to be considered a notch above Ryder. They are gunning for the same spot.

Even if it's still preseason and a lot can happen, it's preseason for both Ryder and Ward. Both have something to prove and right now Ryder is making a much better case for himself than Ward is. Considering Ward didn't prove much more beforehand than Ryder has, I see Ryder currently ahead of Ward in the depth chart.

That being said, I'm not making a case of Ryder having blown out the competition. It just a cold look at the current hab roster and Ryder vs Ward's position in it.

Medicine Twin 10-04-2003 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange
Outplayed ? Don't you think that's a bit of an exageration ? Ward netting 5 more points in the regular season and 4 more in the playoff doesn't warrant the term "outplayed". I feel both accomplished just as much in the AHL last year.

Not really... I never said "Ward outplayed him by a mile". Considering Ward was named AHL MVP last year, I'd say he outplayed everyone.

Quote:

Come on now be serious. Ward's very limited NHL experience does not even make the balance tilt one notch ...
That's your opinion... I think it would make a difference.

Quote:

8 meager points ? That sure is a big challenge...
Let's see him do it then. And remember, Ward will likely continue to add to that total.

Orange 10-04-2003 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plekanec
What I think is that Julien know that Ward is a lock in the line-up and simply give Ryder all opportunity to get a spot too!

I dunno, it also seems that Julien as been using players he wanted to see together in regular season ... So that might make Ward a lock for the 4th and Ryder a lock for the 3rd ... But like I said, I dunno ... it's only speculations.

HABitude 10-04-2003 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plekanec
From what I saw of Ward last season, he clearly has the tool to play with Koivu on the first line...

http://membres.lycos.fr/cybexpressio...ticons/huh.gif Don't overate Ward. I like his physical presence a lot but he doesn't have the skills to play the first line. His skating is too poor, he doesn't have the creativity needed to play such a role of first line winger.

He plays a “corridor” style of game. This is mostly 3rd and 4th line stuff. Great player for 3rd and 4th line, that's where he belongs. :teach: http://membres.lycos.fr/cybexpressio...cons/smoke.gif

Munchausen 10-04-2003 06:56 AM

Ryder and Ward will fit well anywhere. They have the grit, size and physical intensity to play on the 4th, the defensive awareness to play on the 3rd and possibly the scoring touch to eventualy (one day) play on a scoring line. They are more than just grinders and if given the opportunity (some day), they could end up producing offensively (I don't beleive it will be this year though).

At this point those two players are VERY valuable to us for almost the same reasons. 2 right-wingers that make us bigger, tougher and deeper. Who cares who's ahead of who? It's up to Julien to determine which one he'd like to use in a certain role.

It's not like one is a clear cut over the other right now as things goes. Ward's a bit more proven, Ryder had a better camp. Let's start from there shall we and have them fight for more ice time. Remember that if Audette does not do well, management won't be patient with him and this could mean instant increase in responsibilities for either Ward or Ryder.

HABitude 10-04-2003 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plekanec
Seriously desagree... Ward's skating does'nt look beautiful but it's effective and his speed is very ok for a guy of his size...

Ward has some nice offensive skills, a great hockey sense with nice hands and nice creativity contrary at what you say... Great shot, pass the puck very well...

If he can find his confidence of last year, sorry but he is the better fit for Koivu!

Edit: I don't say he is a real first liner, I rather see him as a decent second line winger, but while we are awaiting for a young gun happen (Perezhogin - Kastsitsyn), I really think that Ward is the man actually!

Seriously desagree me too ... Ward's skating is acceptable only in strait-away. He can't skate fast in curves and slalom, that's why he plays a decent skating game in corridor winger line. That player is okay to go deep in the offensive zone and give an hard time to other defensemen. But to play first line a player needs to skate laterally, make quick turns, you know what I mean, Zednik can do that, plus Zed is much faster than Ward in straight-aways. A good first /or second line winger must create opportunities to his center and teamates.

What makes you think he can be effective as 1rst lne winger is he “has some nice offensive skills, a great hockey sense with nice hands and nice creativity contrary at what you say... Great shot, pass the puck very well...”
There's a lot of these players in the NHL and AHL. A good 1rst line winger is like Simon Gagné: speed, creativity, endurance, great lateral moves, scoring touch, great acceleration.
Ward as a 1rst/or 2nd line winger would have a marginal impact. 1rst lne winger for a loosing team who doesn't make the playoffs. This is what I think.

What you mean when you say Ward is a fast skater “his speed is very ok for a guy of his size”? For me, a speedy skater was Lafleur, Naslund, Cournoyer, Courtnall.
Today's fast skaters are: Kariya, Forsberg, Gagné, Fedorov, Kapanen, Mogilny, Guerin, Gaborik, etc.

Jason Ward's speed is way too slow if you want to compare.

RE-HABS 10-04-2003 08:18 AM

Two quotes from a TSN story on last nights game give me the impression that Ryder is deserving of a spot on the Habs and with a line like Perreault and Bulis, here it is:

"Ryder destroyed a Wild defenceman with a crushing hit behind the Minnesota net in the first, and followed that up with his first goal in a Canadiens uniform late in the second on a nifty move at the left faceoff circle."
"I don't know if it was my best game,'' Ryder said. "I just tried to work hard like I always do.''

"Ryder had the goal of the night at 16:33, skating clear across the Minnesota zone, stopping to shed a Wild defender and putting a wrister off Fernandez's glove and in."

Link: http://tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?id=56028

Corey 10-04-2003 08:35 AM

Comparisons of Ward with Audette are not appropriate. Audette may have his shortcomings, and they're well known to all Habs fans, but he leads the Habs in shots on goal in the preseason. Ward simply lacks first or second line skills and will never acquire them.

Munchausen 10-04-2003 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RE-HABS
Two quotes from a TSN story on last nights game give me the impression that Ryder is deserving of a spot on the Habs

I'm one of the biggest Ryder fan out here so anything you'll here from me about him will be praises. And yes, I beleive Ryder has his place (I already beleived it long before the camp started). ;)

aminoj 10-04-2003 08:44 AM

last yeah in the ahl ward had a complete season(excluding the games he spent with the habs) he was getting good ice time all year. while ryder was hardly getting any minutes before xmas. after xmas when ryder was given the chance he produced. most of his point came after xmas, when given the ice time. I think ryder was a better player after xmas than ward, and if given the icetime at the beginning of the season would have out scored ward.

but as far who would be the better nhl player?? i think ryder........

Crusher20 10-04-2003 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medicine Twin
Ward outplayed Ryder last year in the AHL regular season AND in the playoffs. Ward HAS played in the NHL, while Ryder has not. In fact Ward has played really well in his most recent NHL stint. Don't get too far ahead of yourselves guys. Until Ryder shows he can produce more than Ward in the NHL, he shouldn't be ahead of him on the depth chart.

I still find it funny that I was one of the only ones who thought Ryder would even make the team just a month ago, now I'm trying to tell people not to get too high on him...

OK i follow you.. Ward as NHL experience... thats all? are you kidding me? Ward got Drafted 11th OVERALL thank god he played in the NHL.. :rolleyes: I mean.. did they have the Choice? now Ryder was selected in the 8th round!! they never saw as a legit NHLer but he work a lot and for the last 2 season has been receiving more ice time (before that he was always playing in 3th or 4th lines.. and send TWICE to the ECHL) everytime he played in top lines he produce big time.. finnally he got off the 8th round label. its time to shine now. this kid was better than Ward during last year playoffs.. what you dont know is that Ryder was injured and that the games you didnt see on TV he dominate.

anyway, I also think Ryder "should" be rated higher than Ward.. but is it the case? thats another story.

Medicine Twin 10-05-2003 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aminoj
last yeah in the ahl ward had a complete season(excluding the games he spent with the habs) he was getting good ice time all year. while ryder was hardly getting any minutes before xmas. after xmas when ryder was given the chance he produced. most of his point came after xmas, when given the ice time. I think ryder was a better player after xmas than ward, and if given the icetime at the beginning of the season would have out scored ward.

but as far who would be the better nhl player?? i think ryder........

This is a good arguement. I, myself, wasn't sure about how the ice-time/line-mates were handed out in Hamilton last year between these two so I must take that into consideration. I'd still start Ward on the third and Ryder on the fourth... we'll see what happens.

Garnet 10-05-2003 01:25 PM

Ryder
 
About Ryder and Ward in the AHL. How many games did you watch?? If you think Ryder was better than Ward. Ward was the leader played on the top line and faced the oppenents top lines. Gratton went down with a injury and Ward was always shadowed. Do get me wrong I like both guys and I think there both going to make the team. Julien is trying to balance out lines so players could end up anywhere.

Ryder had a tough time till about November last year because he lost his confidence at the start of the season. Ryder wasn't playing because of his own doing not the coaching staff. Ryder was terrible at the start of the year and is a different player now.

Ward skating is OK but his hands and ability to see the play are great. I think Ward can play on the first line with Koivu. He will make space and be in and around the net using his big frame. He will also see PK time this year as well because he's great at it.

Ward was the leader on the Bulldogs, MVP of the year. Ryder had a great a season but was none of the above.


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