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-   -   How to build a real winner... (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1682823)

Reaper1097 06-02-2014 06:43 AM

How to build a real winner...
 
Watching last night's Blackhawks/Kings game and seeing all of these non-marquee type players on each team making significant contributions, most of which were drafted players, got me thinking about how bad the flyers are at drafting and developing players to help them build a winner. In my opinion, it is obviously the most consistent way to win in the NHL, especially finding players after the 1st round. I find these numbers very interesting but this is a list of how each of the 19 players were acquired for each team last night & for the flyers' game 7 against the rangers...

KINGS

Trade: 6 (31.6 %)
UFA/Waivers: 1 (5.3 %)
Rookie FA: 1 (5.3 %)
Draft: 11 (57.9 %)*
*NOTE: Drafted after 1st round: 6 (31.6 %)

BLACKHAWKS

Trade: 5 (26.3 %)
UFA/waivers: 2 (10.5 %)
Rookie FA: 1 (5.3 %)
Draft: 11 (57.9 %)*
*NOTE: Drafted after 1st round: 8 (42.1 %)

FLYERS:

Trade: 10 (52.6 %)
UFA/waivers: 2 (10.5 %)
Rookie FA: 4 (21.1 %)
Draft: 3 (15.8 %)*
*NOTE: Drafted after 1st round: 1 (5.3 %)

I counted players whose rights were traded before UFA as trades (i.e. Timonen, Hartnell, & Streit).

The silver lining in all of this in my opinion? That hextall was involved in almost all of the players acquired by the kings, so hopefully he brings this with him now as the flyers GM...

The Rage Kage 06-02-2014 07:21 AM

Hopefully hextall can bring us a cup

Mr Black 06-02-2014 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reaper1097 (Post 85961261)
FLYERS:

Trade: 10 (52.6 %)
UFA/waivers: 2 (10.5 %)
Rookie FA: 4 (21.1 %)
Draft: 3 (15.8 %)*
*NOTE: Drafted after 1st round: 1 (5.3 %)

I had to go confirm this for myself. And one of them is Rinaldo. Damn.

Bryz4shiz 06-02-2014 08:42 AM

The Kings have the same number of players drafter by the Flyers as the Flyers.

You don't build a successful team when every 5 years 3/4 of the roster is different.

Jumping 06-02-2014 09:16 AM

Well we could have held on to Sharp and Williams... they'd look pretty good bookending Giroux.

Or we could've kept Richards and Carter.

That would have made our draft percentages pretty good.

The Flyers... there is no tomorrow... only today and yesterday.

poneill27 06-02-2014 09:26 AM

Looking at those numbers hurts. I knew it was bad but ouch.

FlyersFan61290 06-02-2014 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reaper1097 (Post 85961261)
Watching last night's Blackhawks/Kings game and seeing all of these non-marquee type players on each team making significant contributions, most of which were drafted players, got me thinking about how bad the flyers are at drafting and developing players to help them build a winner. In my opinion, it is obviously the most consistent way to win in the NHL, especially finding players after the 1st round. I find these numbers very interesting but this is a list of how each of the 19 players were acquired for each team last night & for the flyers' game 7 against the rangers...

KINGS

Trade: 6 (31.6 %)
UFA/Waivers: 1 (5.3 %)
Rookie FA: 1 (5.3 %)
Draft: 11 (57.9 %)*
*NOTE: Drafted after 1st round: 6 (31.6 %)

BLACKHAWKS

Trade: 5 (26.3 %)
UFA/waivers: 2 (10.5 %)
Rookie FA: 1 (5.3 %)
Draft: 11 (57.9 %)*
*NOTE: Drafted after 1st round: 8 (42.1 %)

FLYERS:

Trade: 10 (52.6 %)
UFA/waivers: 2 (10.5 %)
Rookie FA: 4 (21.1 %)
Draft: 3 (15.8 %)*
*NOTE: Drafted after 1st round: 1 (5.3 %)

I counted players whose rights were traded before UFA as trades (i.e. Timonen, Hartnell, & Streit).

The silver lining in all of this in my opinion? That hextall was involved in almost all of the players acquired by the kings, so hopefully he brings this with him now as the flyers GM...

Vinny, Read, Raffl, Akeson, Gus, Hall. I know you are counting Gus and Akeson as Rookie FA but they were signed as UFAs as well.

chupanibre 06-02-2014 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryz4shiz (Post 85963355)
The Kings have the same number of players drafter by the Flyers as the Flyers.

You don't build a successful team when every 5 years 3/4 of the roster is different.

Jesus... I hadn't realised it was that comparable.

Beef Invictus 06-02-2014 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryz4shiz (Post 85963355)
The Kings have the same number of players drafter by the Flyers as the Flyers.

You don't build a successful team when every 5 years 3/4 of the roster is different.

Hell, every three years.

TheKingPin 06-02-2014 09:47 AM

I think this is the sole reason we promoted Hexy. It's obvious we can draft fwds better than any team in the league. We just need to hang on to them. It's said all the time but imagine this team with G carter Richie JVR sharp and Williams. We just give all our talent away constantly.

flyershockey 06-02-2014 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beef Invictus (Post 85964635)
Hell, every three years.

The Flyers only have 4 players left from the 09-10 cup team, and one is an unsigned Kimmo Timonen.

Even with Chicago purging a lot of talent after that cup win, they still have 8 regulars from that roster.

The Kings still have 7 regulars from their 09-10 team, and that team lost in the first round that year. They've since added Richards, Carter, Gaborik, Muzzin, Martinez and Toffoli to the pieces they already had in place.

It's borderline insane how much they turnover their roster.

flyershockey 06-02-2014 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheKingPin (Post 85964947)
I think this is the sole reason we promoted Hexy. It's obvious we can draft fwds better than any team in the league. We just need to hang on to them. It's said all the time but imagine this team with G carter Richie JVR sharp and Williams. We just give all our talent away constantly.

They didn't exactly give away the talent in the Richards/Carter trades. In fact, you could argue that they won the value battle in those trades. They do have a bad habit of trading guys before they fully develop or learn how to become winners. Richards and Carter could have won here had Snider not acted like it was the end of the world that millionaires in their mid 20's spend some time partying. The trades could still look really good if the Flyers win a cup or two with a forward group built around Giroux, Couturier, Simmonds and Voracek. Everyone knew that the trades stood a chance look bad in the short term. It was made worse when CBJ traded Carter to LA, reuniting them for a cup win.

Bryz4shiz 06-02-2014 10:17 AM

Remember the team that went to the ECF in 07/08 and lost to the Pens? There are 3 full time contributers from that team left: Timonen, Hartnell, and Coburn. Downie and Giroux also played a few games that season.

The Blackhawks have five full time players from that season: Kane, Toews, Sharp, Seabrook, and Keith and four youngsters: Bickell, Crawford, Versteeg, and Hjalmarsson.

The Bruins still employ Bergeron, Chara, Krejci, and Thornton, while Rask played a few games as well.

ILoveStephanieBrown 06-02-2014 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyershockey (Post 85965203)
They didn't exactly give away the talent in the Richards/Carter trades. In fact, you could argue that they won the value battle in those trades. They do have a bad habit of trading guys before they fully develop or learn how to become winners. Richards and Carter could have won here had Snider not acted like it was the end of the world that millionaires in their mid 20's spend some time partying. The trades could still look really good if the Flyers win a cup or two with a forward group built around Giroux, Couturier, Simmonds and Voracek. Everyone knew that the trades stood a chance look bad in the short term. It was made worse when CBJ traded Carter to LA, reuniting them for a cup win.

Not likely imo. After seeing how quickly Richards has fallen from what he once was, I just don't see how that would have happened. He was a core piece here. A focal point. Being in LA helps him because he doesn't have to shoulder the load. He's a complimentary player now on a team with a fantastic core. Carter on the other hand is a huge piece to that team and has played his best hockey (playoff hockey that is) since he left so I'll give you that one.

flyershockey 06-02-2014 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MP92 (Post 85966615)
Not likely imo. After seeing how quickly Richards has fallen from what he once was, I just don't see how that would have happened. He was a core piece here. A focal point. Being in LA helps him because he doesn't have to shoulder the load. He's a complimentary player now on a team with a fantastic core. Carter on the other hand is a huge piece to that team and has played his best hockey (playoff hockey that is) since he left so I'll give you that one.

He wouldn't have remained a core piece here either. He would be a third line center here behind Giroux and Carter. I'm not sure what the rest of team would look like since so much has changed since then. I still would liked to have seen what that team could have accomplished in 2011-2012 with an emerging Bob and Giroux a year older.

Prongo 06-02-2014 10:53 AM

One good thing about the teams poor draft results staying with the team is we have Hagg, Ghost, Morin, Laughton, Leier, Cousins all up and coming with two or three maybe making the roster next year.

You add Laughton and Ghost we then have Giroux, Couts, Rinaldo, Laughton, Ghost there. Not as many as you hope but we are making progress. Then, if not traded, the next year Morin, Hagg and others(+our first rounder this year if we keep the pick) should be ready to make the jump.

I would actually consider B Schenn part of our "draft" as well. We traded for him before he was in a NHL role so even though he technically was drafted by the Kings, he has been Flyers property for almost his entire professional career.

Drafting needs to get much better, especially in the later rounds though. I don't mind adding players through free agency or trades unless we have a solid core locked up. Right now with Giroux, Couts, and Schenn down the middle I believe we have that. Now with Laughton coming up and the defenders close to making the roster, we have a window that will hopefully open soon. I believe players like Morin and Ghost will make pretty significant impacts upon their arrival. Not #1 or #2 material immediately but we have seen young players all around the league make impacts when developed properly once they hit NHL ice.

Basically, patience is needed here. Teams are built in many different ways but one thing that is crucial is development of draft picks. Hextall has stated that will get better under his watch, which has me optimistic going forward.

Phillyfan28 06-02-2014 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheKingPin (Post 85964947)
I think this is the sole reason we promoted Hexy. It's obvious we can draft fwds better than any team in the league. We just need to hang on to them. It's said all the time but imagine this team with G carter Richie JVR sharp and Williams. We just give all our talent away constantly.

I am perfectly fine with both of the Carter/Richards trades. We netted two great players in each of those deals.

The JvR trade was the most ridiculous; kid drove me nuts and he looked soft at times but we desperately need a 1LW and we gave one away 2 years ago...

JVR-G-Jake
Akeson-Schenn-Simmer
Hartnell-Coots-Read
Raffl-Laughton-Hall/FA

Coburn-Streit
Timonen-MacD
Gross/FA-FA

I could really live with a lineup like that. The 2nd/3rd lines may need some adjusting but I could really live with that...

The Rage Kage 06-02-2014 11:18 AM

I think in a few years we will be solid contenders

DrHamburg 06-02-2014 11:27 AM

Obviously if your drafted players pan out you have an easier chance of success and it is much easier to sustain success. A problem for the Flyers is the sky is falling mentality. If the Flyers had the path of the Rangers it is very possible Philly could be in the cup finals right now (Henrik getting hurt instead of mason then getting pens, and a priceless habs).

When a FA doesn't pan out it sets your team back severely. Vinny, Bryz are examples. There are a few issues, but to sum it up, if the Flyers draft players pan out (Laughton, Morin, Ghost, Hagg especially) this will be a serious cup contender.

Beef Invictus 06-02-2014 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyershockey (Post 85966845)
He wouldn't have remained a core piece here either. He would be a third line center here behind Giroux and Carter. I'm not sure what the rest of team would look like since so much has changed since then. I still would liked to have seen what that team could have accomplished in 2011-2012 with an emerging Bob and Giroux a year older.

It would be bad. The Briere buyout would have been a saving grace, but there were no picks and no prospects at all. The team was against a wall. They wouldn't have been able to build any depth around their centers. Something huge had to happen.

As for your other post, that's insane. And the 3 players we have left from 5 years ago, aside from Timonen, aren't exactly franchise players. Hartnell is Hartnell, not sure how else to describe him. It's hard to build a team like that...I don't think it can be done. I'm glad that practice seems to be in the trash.

Reaper1097 06-02-2014 03:05 PM

I always hear/read people say the flyers are always drafting later since they are always so competitive so they don't have the luxury of picking in the top 10 like kings and Blackhawks did. Well that is true, however, look at how many of the kings/hawks players were drafted after the 1st round... 14 out of the 39 players or 36.8% of all played who played last night. Which include both goalies and a Norris trophy dman.

In my opinion, that is were the flyers need to improve the most. Identifying above average talent in later rounds and fingers are crossed that hexy can do just that...

flyershockey 06-02-2014 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reaper1097 (Post 85977073)
I always hear/read people say the flyers are always drafting later since they are always so competitive so they don't have the luxury of picking in the top 10 like kings and Blackhawks did. Well that is true, however, look at how many of the kings/hawks players were drafted after the 1st round... 14 out of the 39 players or 36.8% of all played who played last night. Which include both goalies and a Norris trophy dman.

In my opinion, that is were the flyers need to improve the most. Identifying above average talent in later rounds and fingers are crossed that hexy can do just that...

I agree that the Flyers need to do better in the later rounds. That's how you keep your team full of cheap, quality depth. But, don't kid yourself. Both the Hawks and Kings are where they are because of top ten picks. That's where the majority of the upper echelon talent comes from. Even the Flyers have a bunch of former top ten picks, and they've only had one top ten pick in the last decade+. Guys like Giroux are few and far between.

hockeyfreak7 06-02-2014 03:29 PM

I also question how much of drafting in the later rounds is actually attributable to scouting and how much of it is random luck.

I don't think that's a question you can answer. But the solution isn't just saying, "Let's focus more on the later rounds". The draft is to a degree, by its nature, a crapshoot, especially in the back half of it.

Beef Invictus 06-02-2014 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 (Post 85978049)
I also question how much of drafting in the later rounds is actually attributable to scouting and how much of it is random luck.

I don't think that's a question you can answer. But the solution isn't just saying, "Let's focus more on the later rounds". The draft is to a degree, by its nature, a crapshoot, especially in the back half of it.

Drafting guys who project to be 4th line at best certainly hasn't helped their chances either. They've had a handful of those, and it's pretty much just a wasted pick. Rinaldo is the only one that has really worked out...and as we've seen, many people aren't sure it has.

TheKingPin 06-02-2014 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyershockey (Post 85965203)
They didn't exactly give away the talent in the Richards/Carter trades. In fact, you could argue that they won the value battle in those trades. They do have a bad habit of trading guys before they fully develop or learn how to become winners. Richards and Carter could have won here had Snider not acted like it was the end of the world that millionaires in their mid 20's spend some time partying. The trades could still look really good if the Flyers win a cup or two with a forward group built around Giroux, Couturier, Simmonds and Voracek. Everyone knew that the trades stood a chance look bad in the short term. It was made worse when CBJ traded Carter to LA, reuniting them for a cup win.

Theres no question we won both trades. My point is if we didnt trade anyone ever we would have a really really good fwd group and goalie. One that would beat the current group and one that would still be very young and have another 5 good years ahead of it. We will get there but prob not for another 2-3 years. Hopefully sooner. The trick now is to not trade the young guys unless it addresses a need and is a longterm fix.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phillyfan28 (Post 85967121)
I am perfectly fine with both of the Carter/Richards trades. We netted two great players in each of those deals.

The JvR trade was the most ridiculous; kid drove me nuts and he looked soft at times but we desperately need a 1LW and we gave one away 2 years ago...

JVR-G-Jake
Akeson-Schenn-Simmer
Hartnell-Coots-Read
Raffl-Laughton-Hall/FA

Coburn-Streit
Timonen-MacD
Gross/FA-FA

I could really live with a lineup like that. The 2nd/3rd lines may need some adjusting but I could really live with that...

Right but a core of Carter G and Ricahrds is better than what we have now. Then you add JVR, Sharp and Williams and thats a better team right now. I know we will be good in a few just trying to make a point. The way that we played the Blues and hawks as well as some other teams during our peak we were scary and the NHL noticed. Just have to continue that and not blow it up while adding good pieces and I see us a top team in the east with a lot of teams in the East on the decline, still playing poorly, or several years behind us in line ups.


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