HFBoards

HFBoards (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/index.php)
-   Montreal Canadiens (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/forumdisplay.php?f=16)
-   -   Why do you want to get rid of Emelin (if you do)? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1699105)

mustardnight* 06-29-2014 02:17 AM

Why do you want to get rid of Emelin (if you do)?
 
There seems to be an immense amount of armchair GM's (aren't we all) who throw in Emelin in this or that trade proposal for whatever reason. I don't understand why people think he's a guy we can even afford to let go of.

Emelin has been an amazing addition to a blue line that is sorely lacking in grit. Emelin's performances against the bruins are reason enough to keep him. He isn't some scummy 6-7 guy we can add in to sweeten a deal, he's a very valuable piece and it makes no sense to me why people don't give him the respect he deserves.

Corncob 06-29-2014 03:36 AM

Don't actively want to 'get rid' of him but certainly wouldn't be adverse to letting him go in the right deal.

He's paid as a top four dman and simply didn't play like one for a good portion of last season. No amount of 'grit' should be allowed to disguise substandard play.

I also am in the camp who think he'd be much better on the left side. And, when there's been a fair amount of shuffling of d pairings, I'm somewhat perplexed as to why Emelin-Subban has never been tried.

Kriss E 06-29-2014 03:36 AM

I would keep Emelin, but he needs to play on his natural left side, not the right side. For some reason, it seemed written in the sky that Emelin had to play with Markov for the sole reason that he's russian. Otherwise it makes no sense for him to play there.
He's not a top 4 guy, and he just can't play on his off wing. He's just not that good.
Put him on a bottom pair, on his natural side, and he'll look amazing.

MasterDecoy 06-29-2014 05:20 AM

he's pretty average. but when you play on his off side, he becomes less than average and stops hitting.

left side or trade his ass

Forlando 06-29-2014 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterDecoy (Post 87229945)
he's pretty average. but when you play on his off side, he becomes less than average and stops hitting.

left side or trade his ass

I don't like his contract. It's one of the few decisions of MB that I have contested. At 3.5 I would be ok. He had a "bad" year last year but that happens.

BLONG7 06-29-2014 05:30 AM

Keep him, and trade Gorges...
We need Emelin's hitting...Weaver can replace Gorges shot blocking...

ECWHSWI 06-29-2014 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLONG7 (Post 87230039)
Keep him, and trade Gorges...
We need Emelin's hitting...Weaver can replace Gorges shot blocking...

Weaver is a bottom pairing D...

Habs Icing 06-29-2014 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterDecoy (Post 87229945)
he's pretty average. but when you play on his off side, he becomes less than average and stops hitting.

left side or trade his ass

What do we do with the rest of him?

dcyhabs 06-29-2014 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corncob (Post 87229181)
Don't actively want to 'get rid' of him but certainly wouldn't be adverse to letting him go in the right deal.

He's paid as a top four dman and simply didn't play like one for a good portion of last season. No amount of 'grit' should be allowed to disguise substandard play.

I also am in the camp who think he'd be much better on the left side. And, when there's been a fair amount of shuffling of d pairings, I'm somewhat perplexed as to why Emelin-Subban has never been tried.

I seem to remember Emelin-Subban was tried and did not go real well... Lots of goals against? Not sure it was tried long term but if my feeble memory servers the few attempts did not go real well.

Blind Gardien 06-29-2014 06:53 AM

I find a huge disconnect lately with a lot of what Habs fans are saying about Emelin and Gorges in particular, and even Markov to a lesser extent. It's funny, I sort of used to be the guy pointing out Emelin's flaws and limitations and arguing against his new contract. I mean, he still hasn't actually _earned_ it. But both him and Gorges are reasonable enough middle-roster defensemen. They have various collections of strengths and weaknesses... sort of like you'll find everywhere when you start looking at defense corps closely around the league.

Too much of a microscope on these guys, IMHO. They are ok. There are areas Emelin can improve on, and you just sit back and see if he gets moved back to LD or settles in a bit better on RD, gets a good start without the big injury next year, etc.

I can't see the Habs getting better if they move guys like Emelin or Gorges. All they can do is pick up different middling defenders with different combinations of warts. I'd stick with the known, rather venturing into potential trouble with different players. What we've got worked pretty well despite some issues, but I think that leaves us with some good room for internal tweaks and improvements. Looking outside for solutions in the current marketplace seems like a risky proposition to me.

I mean, sure, provide the specific options and I'll think about whether I'd bite or not. But I doubt it would make a serious difference. Take a guy like Garrison. Maybe the Habs were thinking they could flip a current D for a pick then use that pick to acquire Garrison in the same salary cap slot. I don't see that representing any improvement. Just a different middling player with an even bigger contract, and more redudancy on the PP. I'd rather just stick with what we have, get a solid-but-cheap veteran D like Weaver for the #5 spot, and build the top-4 from within - at least until the marketplace shows a more clearly preferable option.

dcyhabs 06-29-2014 07:03 AM

Agree with the goalie. It's easy to dump players (Gionta?), it's not easy to replace them. Replacing Murray with Beaulieu is a huge gain. Replacing Gorges or Emelin with Tinordi might work long term but probably not this coming year. Playing lots of minutes against top players without getting completely exposed is a meaningful skill.

Plekanec, Eller, Gorges, and Emelin are underrated because they pull tough assignments and don't get completely owned. Gionta is dropping down the lineup but he is still a good 3rd liner. Dumping these guys without getting better players will kill the team. The habs would have to play AHLers against meaningful competition.

If you don't like Emelin wait until you see Pateryn or Weaver forced to play 20 minutes against top players. Hmm, Subban, Markov, Gorges, Beaulieu... Maybe not so bad, just need a decent bottom pairing.

ECWHSWI 06-29-2014 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blind Gardien (Post 87230637)
I find a huge disconnect lately with a lot of what Habs fans are saying about Emelin and Gorges in particular, and even Markov to a lesser extent. It's funny, I sort of used to be the guy pointing out Emelin's flaws and limitations and arguing against his new contract. I mean, he still hasn't actually _earned_ it. But both him and Gorges are reasonable enough middle-roster defensemen. They have various collections of strengths and weaknesses... sort of like you'll find everywhere when you start looking at defense corps closely around the league.

Too much of a microscope on these guys, IMHO. They are ok. There are areas Emelin can improve on, and you just sit back and see if he gets moved back to LD or settles in a bit better on RD, gets a good start without the big injury next year, etc.

I can't see the Habs getting better if they move guys like Emelin or Gorges. All they can do is pick up different middling defenders with different combinations of warts. I'd stick with the known, rather venturing into potential trouble with different players. What we've got worked pretty well despite some issues, but I think that leaves us with some good room for internal tweaks and improvements. Looking outside for solutions in the current marketplace seems like a risky proposition to me.

I mean, sure, provide the specific options and I'll think about whether I'd bite or not. But I doubt it would make a serious difference. Take a guy like Garrison. Maybe the Habs were thinking they could flip a current D for a pick then use that pick to acquire Garrison in the same salary cap slot. I don't see that representing any improvement. Just a different middling player with an even bigger contract, and more redudancy on the PP. I'd rather just stick with what we have, get a solid-but-cheap veteran D like Weaver for the #5 spot, and build the top-4 from within - at least until the marketplace shows a more clearly preferable option.

the only option for me (somewhat realistic) would be to replace Emelin/Gorges with a RHD such as Stralman (with PK, Markov and probably Beaulieu, we dont need more PMD), thing is, UFA crop is so bad, he'll definitely get more than what guys like Emelin/Gorges are making... meaning, not much room for help on offense (where we're still missing two top 6 wingers).

BrimStone64 06-29-2014 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blind Gardien (Post 87230637)
I find a huge disconnect lately with a lot of what Habs fans are saying about Emelin and Gorges in particular, and even Markov to a lesser extent. It's funny, I sort of used to be the guy pointing out Emelin's flaws and limitations and arguing against his new contract. I mean, he still hasn't actually _earned_ it. But both him and Gorges are reasonable enough middle-roster defensemen. They have various collections of strengths and weaknesses... sort of like you'll find everywhere when you start looking at defense corps closely around the league.

Too much of a microscope on these guys, IMHO. They are ok. There are areas Emelin can improve on, and you just sit back and see if he gets moved back to LD or settles in a bit better on RD, gets a good start without the big injury next year, etc.

I can't see the Habs getting better if they move guys like Emelin or Gorges. All they can do is pick up different middling defenders with different combinations of warts. I'd stick with the known, rather venturing into potential trouble with different players. What we've got worked pretty well despite some issues, but I think that leaves us with some good room for internal tweaks and improvements. Looking outside for solutions in the current marketplace seems like a risky proposition to me.

I mean, sure, provide the specific options and I'll think about whether I'd bite or not. But I doubt it would make a serious difference. Take a guy like Garrison. Maybe the Habs were thinking they could flip a current D for a pick then use that pick to acquire Garrison in the same salary cap slot. I don't see that representing any improvement. Just a different middling player with an even bigger contract, and more redudancy on the PP. I'd rather just stick with what we have, get a solid-but-cheap veteran D like Weaver for the #5 spot, and build the top-4 from within - at least until the marketplace shows a more clearly preferable option.

But if team like Leafs offered a serious asset one would need to go. Could sign an average d-man to replace a Gorges(just for example)

One Less Louise 06-29-2014 07:07 AM

The cat is out of the bag. Habs tried to trade Gorges. Emelin isn't likely to go anywhere, and Gorges is probably headed out.

If you don't trade one or the other, you basically think that the habs defense is fine as it is, and we're a contender. We are not and we need to improve IMO.

Forlando 06-29-2014 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blind Gardien (Post 87230637)
I find a huge disconnect lately with a lot of what Habs fans are saying about Emelin and Gorges in particular, and even Markov to a lesser extent. It's funny, I sort of used to be the guy pointing out Emelin's flaws and limitations and arguing against his new contract. I mean, he still hasn't actually _earned_ it. But both him and Gorges are reasonable enough middle-roster defensemen. They have various collections of strengths and weaknesses... sort of like you'll find everywhere when you start looking at defense corps closely around the league.

Too much of a microscope on these guys, IMHO. They are ok. There are areas Emelin can improve on, and you just sit back and see if he gets moved back to LD or settles in a bit better on RD, gets a good start without the big injury next year, etc.

I can't see the Habs getting better if they move guys like Emelin or Gorges. All they can do is pick up different middling defenders with different combinations of warts. I'd stick with the known, rather venturing into potential trouble with different players. What we've got worked pretty well despite some issues, but I think that leaves us with some good room for internal tweaks and improvements. Looking outside for solutions in the current marketplace seems like a risky proposition to me.

I mean, sure, provide the specific options and I'll think about whether I'd bite or not. But I doubt it would make a serious difference. Take a guy like Garrison. Maybe the Habs were thinking they could flip a current D for a pick then use that pick to acquire Garrison in the same salary cap slot. I don't see that representing any improvement. Just a different middling player with an even bigger contract, and more redudancy on the PP. I'd rather just stick with what we have, get a solid-but-cheap veteran D like Weaver for the #5 spot, and build the top-4 from within - at least until the marketplace shows a more clearly preferable option.

Sounds all good to me.

BrimStone64 06-29-2014 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E = CH² (Post 87230769)
The cat is out of the bag. Habs tried to trade Gorges. Emelin isn't likely to go anywhere, and Gorges is probably headed out.

If you don't trade one or the other, you basically think that the habs defense is fine as it is, and we're a contender. We are not and we need to improve IMO.

Where was this said? Toronto be last team Bergs would approach, Gorges list would have been submitted

Blind Gardien 06-29-2014 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ECWHSWI (Post 87230745)
the only option for me (somewhat realistic) would be to replace Emelin/Gorges with a RHD such as Stralman (with PK, Markov and probably Beaulieu, we dont need more PMD), thing is, UFA crop is so bad, he'll definitely get more than what guys like Emelin/Gorges are making... meaning, not much room for help on offense (where we're still missing two top 6 wingers).

Yeah, I think Stralman is just a different bag of warts and if you signed him for $5M or whatever ludicrous number he gets, he's going to be a far bigger lightning rod than Emelin or Gorges. He's a perfect example of what I see out there.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mats86 (Post 87230747)
But if team like Leafs offered a serious asset one would need to go. Could sign an average d-man to replace a Gorges(just for example)

What's a "serious asset", and which "average d-man", though?

I wouldn't like to see the Leafs improve their defensive zone play, and Gorges would help them a lot. I would not trade Gorges to the Leafs under any circumstances. I'm sure they'd love to have him, and it sounds like they asked Bergevin for him, but the Habs wouldn't trade him and couldn't even if they would anyway thanks to the NTC. Getting all dizzy about that story isn't worth our time, IMHO.

MasterDecoy 06-29-2014 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onice (Post 87230353)
What do we do with the rest of him?

badumtish :laugh:

One Less Louise 06-29-2014 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mats86 (Post 87230819)
Where was this said? Toronto be last team Bergs would approach, Gorges list would have been submitted

They say that Gorges shot down a trade to the leafs. Perhaps the leafs approached the habs, but a trade was still agreed upon. It makes sense that the habs are trying to trade one of Gorges or Emelin. And it seems that they are at least willing to consider moving Gorges.

Plus this article makes it sound like Gorges being traded is in the cards :
Quote:

Josh Gorges stay in Montreal may be coming to an end.
According to TSN Hockey Insider Bob McKenzie, the defenceman's name has been involved in trade discussions by the Canadiens.
McKenzie adds that the Toronto Maple Leafs made a pitch to their rival club but no Canadian team is on the list of 15 clubs to which Gorges would accept a trade.
Gorges scored one goal and added 13 assists in 66 games with the Canadiens in 2013-14. He had two assists and an even rating in 17 playoff games.
In 560 career NHL games with the San Jose Sharks and Canadiens, Gorges has scored 14 goals and 98 points.
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=455940

JLP 06-29-2014 07:17 AM

Emelin is the best hitting defenceman on a small soft team. He however should be playing on the left side.
Also he has a howitzer and should be taking 2nd power play duties. Instead, Francis Bouillon had twice as many power play minutes last season as Emelin, although Emelin scored power play points at a rate six times higher than Bouillon did. This may be on Therrien.
Anyway it's smart of MB to trade Gorges over Emelin imo.

habs03 06-29-2014 08:33 AM

Emelin has played RD not only for most of his NHL career, aside from a few games playing with Daiz and Weber on LD, he also played RD his whole career in the NHL, and he said he perfers to play RD.

Ideally you want to have everyone playign their side, but very very few teams have that with the lack of right handed players.

What makes playing your offside hard is that you are on your backhand a lot more, you passing angels are different, but for a guy that has played RD his whole career, and for a guy that is an underrated puck mover, its a factor.

JLP 06-29-2014 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by habs03 (Post 87231989)
Emelin has played RD not only for most of his NHL career, aside from a few games playing with Daiz and Weber on LD, he also played RD his whole career in the NHL, and he said he perfers to play RD.

...

Have not seen a credible source where Emelin says that he prefers to play on the right side, where did you get this idea?

overlords 06-29-2014 09:35 AM

Love him as a third pairing guy, but 4m/year isn't third pairing money. He's not good enough on the second pairing without being carried by someone much better. His contract will be an albatross soon enough.

habs03 06-29-2014 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLP (Post 87233913)
Have not seen a credible source where Emelin says that he prefers to play on the right side, where did you get this idea?

Mid season when he was sat out for a game, during one of the moring scrums I remember reading tweets asking him about it.

The guy has played RD most of his career, in the KHL, in the Olympics, and apart from a few games when he played with Daiz and Weber in his rookie year.

Darth Joker 06-29-2014 09:41 AM

In a perfect world...

Emelin or Gorges to Washington for Brouwer.

Take the slight cap savings + Gionta's contract and give it to Niskanen. Let Gionta walk, make Pleks or Subban the Captain. We essentially trade Gionta and Gorges/Emelin for Brouwer and Niskanen, with cap hits cancelling out.

New Top 4 now has two righties and two lefties. The team gets bigger, younger, more physical, and more offensively talented (well, putting aside the likely loss of Vanek, of course).


However, I'm not sure if this is enough to get Niskanen.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:17 AM.

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com, A property of CraveOnline, a division of AtomicOnline LLC ©2009 CraveOnline Media, LLC. All Rights Reserved.