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Lowetide 10-05-2003 08:55 AM

Lowe's strength as a GM
 
He uses the system. Lowe is really aggressive in alot of areas (remember Lindros? he's pulled the trigger on several huge trades), but with the farm system the organization seems to look down on the farm first, then look for deals.

He pursued Conklin and Bergeron, and won the war each time. What is the value of those two? 2 3rd rounders? Is that fair?

When it was obvious Comrie was on his way to becoming a free agent, he bit the bullet and got the guy. It cost him ALOT, but after losing Doug Weight he had few options.

One of his first free agent signings was Scott Ferguson, who despite shortcomings has certainly contributed. Steve Staios is easily his best free agent signing, and one of the best in the last three years.

If you're Mike Bishai, Nate DiCasmirro and Rocky Thompson, you must feel there's a chance you can make this club down the line. It will probably aid the team in future free agent negotiations, they have a pretty good reputation for actually using guys who sign. Not just Conklin, and now Bergeron, but Dom Pittis and Ferguson and Brian Swanson (who was here before Lowe arrived).

The organization has also been pretty quick to admit making mistakes. Ljubimov and Dopita come to mind, and they also got maximum return for Jochen Hecht.

Another aspect of this team that I like is their willingness to utilize their draft picks. Fernando Pisani was taken 195th in 1996, Sarno was taken 141st in 1997, and they are both likely to make the team. They broke camp with Brad Norton in the fall of 2000, although he had been suspended and ended up back in Hamilton.

With the exception of the waiver draft, which they havent used (unless I've forgotten someone), Lowe and company have looked under every rock and come up with some gems.

As a trader, imo Lowe is slightly above average, pretty good results for a rookie GM. But as an organization, they've been splendid at finding players.

This year's rookies (Sarno, Stoll, Luoma, Bergeron, Torres) came through every way possible.

Yanner39 10-05-2003 09:06 AM

I personally think Lowe is underratted as a GM in the NHL. Most GM that get the press like Lacroix or Sather have alot of money to throw around and like you say LT, they don't really have to concerned themselves with any system. I they want a player, they buy him.

I think GMs like Lowe and Brian Burke and Muckley and Lamorello have done alot of good for the game. Unfortunately, it only takes a Bobby Clarke or Lacroix (amoung others) to screw things up.

theoil 10-05-2003 10:10 AM

I like Lowe a lot and as I posted on another thread earlier today I think that this year's training camp shows signs of his maturing as a GM. The learning curve has been steep for him, after all. Comrie will be his biggest test to date.

CupBound 10-05-2003 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lowetide
He uses the system. Lowe is really aggressive in alot of areas (remember Lindros? he's pulled the trigger on several huge trades), but with the farm system the organization seems to look down on the farm first, then look for deals.

He pursued Conklin and Bergeron, and won the war each time. What is the value of those two? 2 3rd rounders? Is that fair?

When it was obvious Comrie was on his way to becoming a free agent, he bit the bullet and got the guy. It cost him ALOT, but after losing Doug Weight he had few options.

One of his first free agent signings was Scott Ferguson, who despite shortcomings has certainly contributed. Steve Staios is easily his best free agent signing, and one of the best in the last three years.

If you're Mike Bishai, Nate DiCasmirro and Rocky Thompson, you must feel there's a chance you can make this club down the line. It will probably aid the team in future free agent negotiations, they have a pretty good reputation for actually using guys who sign. Not just Conklin, and now Bergeron, but Dom Pittis and Ferguson and Brian Swanson (who was here before Lowe arrived).

The organization has also been pretty quick to admit making mistakes. Ljubimov and Dopita come to mind, and they also got maximum return for Jochen Hecht.

Another aspect of this team that I like is their willingness to utilize their draft picks. Fernando Pisani was taken 195th in 1996, Sarno was taken 141st in 1997, and they are both likely to make the team. They broke camp with Brad Norton in the fall of 2000, although he had been suspended and ended up back in Hamilton.

With the exception of the waiver draft, which they havent used (unless I've forgotten someone), Lowe and company have looked under every rock and come up with some gems.

As a trader, imo Lowe is slightly above average, pretty good results for a rookie GM. But as an organization, they've been splendid at finding players.

This year's rookies (Sarno, Stoll, Luoma, Bergeron, Torres) came through every way possible.

Are you kidding me? The (marginal talent) rookies are here because Lowe has shipped the good players out and got ***** as return. He traded a star #1 C for a second line winger and 3rd line C. Where is the second line winger now? Duh!

Ferguson is a minor leaguer that will get a regular shift due to lack of depth on the Oilers.

Sarno and Pisani are gonna make the THIS team, but wouldn't make many others in teh NHL. Again, lack of PROVEN depth.

All Lowe has done is lower the talent level with pretty much every trade he made. Take away all the OTL points and you will see that the Oilers have been a .500 team instead of the 92 point team that is still improving. Lowe has not made many good moves. He has made a few brutal ones though.

windowlicker 10-05-2003 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CupBound
Are you kidding me? The (marginal talent) rookies are here because Lowe has shipped the good players out and got ***** as return. He traded a star #1 C for a second line winger and 3rd line C. Where is the second line winger now? Duh!

Ferguson is a minor leaguer that will get a regular shift due to lack of depth on the Oilers.

Sarno and Pisani are gonna make the THIS team, but wouldn't make many others in teh NHL. Again, lack of PROVEN depth.

All Lowe has done is lower the talent level with pretty much every trade he made. Take away all the OTL points and you will see that the Oilers have been a .500 team instead of the 92 point team that is still improving. Lowe has not made many good moves. He has made a few brutal ones though.

And your basing Lowe's performance considering the fact that he has a 65 Million Dollar piggy bank to with play in the off season? Id like to see Holland in Det. or whoever is running that sideshow in Dallas build and maintain their teams talent with one hand tied behind their back.

Its posts like this that expose you to the HF posters as someone of below average hockey intelligence.

elphy101 10-05-2003 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CupBound
He traded a star #1 C for a second line winger and 3rd line C. Where is the second line winger now? Duh!

Lowe did not get robbed in that trade.

To Edmonton

Marty Reasoner
Jarrrot Stoll
Jeff Drouin Deslaurier

for

Doug Weight.

I'd bet money that St. Louis GM Larry Pleau would jump at this trade offer right now if Lowe offered it. So I have to disagree. That's right now too, imagine how good it will look if JD deslaurier becomes the oilers #1 in the future and Stoll develops into player/leader many think he will become.

CupBound 10-05-2003 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphy101
Lowe did not get robbed in that trade.

To Edmonton

Marty Reasoner
Jarrrot Stoll
Jeff Drouin Deslaurier

for

Doug Weight.

I'd bet money that St. Louis GM Larry Pleau would jump at this trade offer right now if Lowe offered it. So I have to disagree. That's right now too, imagine how good it will look if JD deslaurier becomes the oilers #1 in the future and Stoll develops into player/leader many think he will become.

Marty Reasoner was on waivers the following draft.
Jarret Stoll 1.should be going back to junior 2. Is a third liner at best(still to be seen)
Jeff Who? Exactly my point. Let me know how he is after he actually wins some games in the NHL, which is NOT a given for any PROSPECTS.

CupBound 10-05-2003 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by windowlicker
And your basing Lowe's performance considering the fact that he has a 65 Million Dollar piggy bank to with play in the off season? Id like to see Holland in Det. or whoever is running that sideshow in Dallas build and maintain their teams talent with one hand tied behind their back.

Its posts like this that expose you to the HF posters as someone of below average hockey intelligence.

WTF? He didn't get a good return in his trades. Why is it that a team like Van can grab good players in trades and Lowe gets crap?

It's about the bottom line. Improve the team. He failed to do it in most trades. Only a brainwashed nimwith like you would actually approve of the constant salary dumps for marginal returns. Why did Ottawa get great players for Yashin? Why did Cgy get great players for Niewendyke and Fleury?
Why is Weight gone for waiver boy and two marginal prospects?

Answer me those questions.

Oilers1* 10-05-2003 11:08 AM

I think Lowe's best strength is the one he's been most critized for, actually, and that's his ability to maximize his return on salary dumps.

The Weight trade notwithstanding (and there were some extenuating circumstances surrounding that one), I think he's managed to do three things with every salary dump:

1. Turn a single asset into multiple assets
2. Improve the team long-term
3. Minimize short-term losses

Not an easy task, IMO. Now, Slats could pull off some nice dumps, too, like dealing Arnott for Guerin but I like Lowe's philosophy better. The best example (since its the earliest and, therefore, the easiest to assess) is the Hamrlik for Brewer, Green and Pick deal. That deal improved our farm system, improved our depth and added a premier young blueliner. By comparison, the Guerin-Arnott deal added a better, but older winger who provided a short-term boost but who left after only a few years.

As critized as the Niinimaa move was, I think it has the potential to work almost as well. If Izzy becomes a 25-goal/150-PIM force and Torres emerges as a nasty Mike Grier, we've added significant depth and ability to our forward corp.

CupBound 10-05-2003 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laraque27
I think Lowe's best strength is the one he's been most critized for, actually, and that's his ability to maximize his return on salary dumps.

The Weight trade notwithstanding (and there were some extenuating circumstances surrounding that one), I think he's managed to do three things with every salary dump:

1. Turn a single asset into multiple assets
2. Improve the team long-term
3. Minimize short-term losses

Not an easy task, IMO. Now, Slats could pull off some nice dumps, too, like dealing Arnott for Guerin but I like Lowe's philosophy better. The best example (since its the earliest and, therefore, the easiest to assess) is the Hamrlik for Brewer, Green and Pick deal. That deal improved our farm system, improved our depth and added a premier young blueliner. By comparison, the Guerin-Arnott deal added a better, but older winger who provided a short-term boost but who left after only a few years.

As critized as the Niinimaa move was, I think it has the potential to work almost as well. If Izzy becomes a 25-goal/150-PIM force and Torres emerges as a nasty Mike Grier, we've added significant depth and ability to our forward corp.

The problem with that I have is that it took HOW LONG for Brewer to be a good D?
What better future? Need I remind Rita? He was the next best thing two years ago and he still can't crack this depleted lineup. Prospects are just that, prospects. You can't tell they will turn good. Knowing the Oilers draft record and thei scouting results I'd guess that most of these prospects will never amount to anything.

gretzky2kurri 10-05-2003 11:18 AM

It takes a long time to find out whether Lowes moves are any good. That's why it's hard to rate him.

I thought trading Niinimaa was nuts.

If Torres turns out as good as he looks now and Isbister actually busts out into a consistant player........I don't mind the trade. But if one of these 2 players busts I still don't like the trade at all.

Not happy about trading Niinimaa.

s7ark 10-05-2003 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CupBound
WTF? He didn't get a good return in his trades. Why is it that a team like Van can grab good players in trades and Lowe gets crap?

It's about the bottom line. Improve the team. He failed to do it in most trades. Only a brainwashed nimwith like you would actually approve of the constant salary dumps for marginal returns. Why did Ottawa get great players for Yashin? Why did Cgy get great players for Niewendyke and Fleury?
Why is Weight gone for waiver boy and two marginal prospects?

Answer me those questions.

Normally I try to not feed trolls but I gotta jump in here. How about Guerin for Carter(Dvorak) and what turned into Hemsky? The Weight trade we will win in the long run. We would have lost Weight to UFA a year later anyways, so in effect we traded 1 year of Weight for Reasoner and 2 great prospects. A year incidentally where Weight scored 7 more points then Hecht. I think we will take players and prospects we got over those 7 missed points..

Also, I love how you discount the prospects we got back as not a sure thing, and you're right, but then talk about the Niewendyke and Yashin trades which were basically for prosepects and "not sure things" Do you think Calgary could trade Niewendyke for Iginla now? Or how about Yashin for Chara and anything? Not a chance. While prospects remain gambles, then can turn out better in the long run. Lets see what happens over then next few years. Reasoner has become a valued member of our team who brings a lot of different things to the table and Stoll is pushing to make the team at the age of 20. JDD is a great young goaltender that will probably be the Oilers starter in a few years. All that for a missed 7 points... Darn, I guess we did get screwed...


Good call, go back to your own board.

Narnia 10-05-2003 11:23 AM

CupBound
 
Stop trolling on here. Who do you cheer for? Was it New Jersey last year, Detroit the year before? Who's it going to be this year. A team that wins the cup.

After Lowe traded Carter and Niimimaa, Lowe received death threats. Is that any way to treat a GM of any team? Lowe has been receiving way too much criticizm by fans. It doesn't matter who he trades, he'll be criticized.

Slats was a genious according to fans and could do no wrong. Lowe gets criticized for every move he makes. He got a good return for Brewer and Guerin and there were other trades that were good. After the Hamrlik trade, fans wanted Lowe fired and he was called every name in the book. Lowe can't win no matter what he does.

Lowetide 10-05-2003 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CupBound
WTF? He didn't get a good return in his trades. Why is it that a team like Van can grab good players in trades and Lowe gets crap?

It's about the bottom line. Improve the team. He failed to do it in most trades. Only a brainwashed nimwith like you would actually approve of the constant salary dumps for marginal returns. Why did Ottawa get great players for Yashin? Why did Cgy get great players for Niewendyke and Fleury?
Why is Weight gone for waiver boy and two marginal prospects?

Answer me those questions.

I'd give you Bill Guerin and a 1st rounder (Shaone Morrisson) for Anson Carter, a 1st (ALes Hemsky) and a 2nd (Doug Lynch) as a pretty fair return.

Also, I don't exactly know what a nimwith is, but I'm certain it isn't good. Can you please refrain from name calling?

Thanks.

PS, Jarret Stoll isnt eligible for junior.

Silver 10-05-2003 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CupBound
WTF? He didn't get a good return in his trades. Why is it that a team like Van can grab good players in trades and Lowe gets crap?

It's about the bottom line. Improve the team. He failed to do it in most trades. Only a brainwashed nimwith like you would actually approve of the constant salary dumps for marginal returns. Why did Ottawa get great players for Yashin? Why did Cgy get great players for Niewendyke and Fleury?
Why is Weight gone for waiver boy and two marginal prospects?

Answer me those questions.

You're just not too bright, are you?

Weight was only going to sign long term with two teams. St. Louis and Detroit...he would have been a rental player for anyone else that year. Lowe's hands were pretty tied there. What was Jagr worth last time he got traded?

CupBound 10-05-2003 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver
You're just not too bright, are you?

Weight was only going to sign long term with two teams. St. Louis and Detroit...he would have been a rental player for anyone else that year. Lowe's hands were pretty tied there. What was Jagr worth last time he got traded?

You believe that crap? LOL. You poor thing.
Believe in Santa Clause too?

Jagr choked in playoffs and was always injured.

Lowe failed to get decent return for his star player.
How about the Niniimaa trade? Of course we will have to wait 3 years before we all admit, but he got a pylon and a mucker prospect for the teams #1 D. Great deal. Bravo.

Stop the nonsense and look at the moves Lowe made without the rose color glasses and pinning too much hopes on the prospects coming back. It's mostly crap.

Digger12 10-05-2003 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CupBound
Jagr choked in playoffs and was always injured.

So are you honestly saying that Pittsburgh got fair value for a 5 time Art Ross trophy winner? Wow.

Career playoff stats with the Pens: 140 GP, 65G 82A 147 points...yeah, looks like a real playoff choker.

Big T 10-05-2003 11:48 AM

Cupbound,

I agree that in the short run these trades look bad (Dougy Weight) but we have to keep in mind how this fits into the long term picture. Lowe has said all along that he is working on a team that will only see big results after the 2004 CBA. Trading proven talent for prospects only makes sense when you recieve multiple prospect for your talent (Reasoner/Deslaurier/Stoll) b/c some may not pan out. It is a lot easier to look smart if you don't have money issues as the Oilers due. If we're comparing Lowe to other GM's in similar situations you don't have any farther to look than South on HWY #2. Calgary's financial situation and position on the rebuilding curve are very similar to Edmonton's. Both teams peaked at approx. the same time in the late 80's early 90's and both have about the same population base. Both have to deal with CAN/US exchange rate and both are even geographically similar. Now if we're comparing this way Lowe looks pretty good compared to the previous Flames GM's. Just be sure you compare apples to apples when you say someone isin't pulling their weight.

oilswell 10-05-2003 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lowetide
As a trader, imo Lowe is slightly above average, pretty good results for a rookie GM. But as an organization, they've been splendid at finding players.

At this point I agree with this statement. They seem to be doing an amazing job in other areas, however, including raising fan interest and the general profile of the Oilers. I like the job they're doing, which becomes fairly impressive when you think of how long Lowe's been a GM.

One interesting experiment is the Roadrunners. This is a team that will have a lot of Lowe's fingerprints on them. It might be interesting to see how well they do. If they do well for an effectively brand-new team, this might reinforce the idea that Lowe's group is doing a good job with the team top to bottom.

BTW, I know your post was NOT about Lowe's trading ability (although that appears to be the topic of the ongoing debate), but I'm not decided on that aspect yet.

One thing I think many fans may be guilty of is not being even-handed about trades. The way I look at it is there is going to be a bell-curve shaped distribution of trades: at one end, a few spectacularly bad trades, at the other end a few spectacularly good trades, and in the middle a bunch of even trades. There's two pitfalls that some fans can fall into IMO.
  1. Not realizing the normal distribution of trades is normal. No GM will have uniformly spectacular trades. Demanding a GM make these consistently is just foolishness, IMO. In fact, most GMs will eventually have a trade history that approximates a bell curve shape. With good GMs, the shape will be skewed towards good trades, and with Mike Smith (dig!), it will be skewed towards bad trades. Right now Lowe's trade history looks OK to me, but obviously that evaluation depends upon how one views the trade circumstances and returns.
  2. Picking out spectacular trades as if they were normal. So let's assume that the Yashin trade was a fantastic one for Ottawa. Not all are that good. In fact, very few are. It pains me when someone picks a 1-in-100 trade and says: "someone else got that good deal, why couldn't X do as good?". It seems to me that whenever there's a seriously lopsided trade, there's a GM on the losing side who is desperate and/or stupid. Its not always possible to find a GM like that. Its a little silly to blame the GM if they can't find one each time...JMO.

PigeonCamera 10-05-2003 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Digger12
So are you honestly saying that Pittsburgh got fair value for a 5 time Art Ross trophy winner? Wow.

Career playoff stats with the Pens: 140 GP, 65G 82A 147 points...yeah, looks like a real playoff choker.

Ah, but that doesn't fit CBs arguement, so therefore needs to be ignored. Just like Weight's impending UFA status...

Every few months, CB comes around, posts some crap...and then dissappears into the nothingness from whence he came.

CB: You aren't worth argueing with. In your world there are no economics, there are no UFAs, and rookies and prospects are worthless. Potential is meaningless...

This being "Hockey's Future" with the emphasis on "Future"...methinks you ought to lay off the moronic shortsighted posts. Might I suggest you check out the SLAM boards? I'm sure you'll find a great deal more of your peers there.

CupBound 10-05-2003 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilswell
At this point I agree with this statement. They seem to be doing an amazing job in other areas, however, including raising fan interest and the general profile of the Oilers. I like the job they're doing, which becomes fairly impressive when you think of how long Lowe's been a GM.

One interesting experiment is the Roadrunners. This is a team that will have a lot of Lowe's fingerprints on them. It might be interesting to see how well they do. If they do well for an effectively brand-new team, this might reinforce the idea that Lowe's group is doing a good job with the team top to bottom.

BTW, I know your post was NOT about Lowe's trading ability (although that appears to be the topic of the ongoing debate), but I'm not decided on that aspect yet.

One thing I think many fans may be guilty of is not being even-handed about trades. The way I look at it is there is going to be a bell-curve shaped distribution of trades: at one end, a few spectacularly bad trades, at the other end a few spectacularly good trades, and in the middle a bunch of even trades. There's two pitfalls that some fans can fall into IMO.
  1. Not realizing the normal distribution of trades is normal. No GM will have uniformly spectacular trades. Demanding a GM make these consistently is just foolishness, IMO. In fact, most GMs will eventually have a trade history that approximates a bell curve shape. With good GMs, the shape will be skewed towards good trades, and with Mike Smith (dig!), it will be skewed towards bad trades. Right now Lowe's trade history looks OK to me, but obviously that evaluation depends upon how one views the trade circumstances and returns.
  2. Picking out spectacular trades as if they were normal. So let's assume that the Yashin trade was a fantastic one for Ottawa. Not all are that good. In fact, very few are. It pains me when someone picks a 1-in-100 trade and says: "someone else got that good deal, why couldn't X do as good?". It seems to me that whenever there's a seriously lopsided trade, there's a GM on the losing side who is desperate and/or stupid. Its not always possible to find a GM like that. Its a little silly to blame the GM if they can't find one each time...JMO.

When we saw the Jagr/Kovalev deals we all laughed. The Weight deal is not better yet we are supposed to see it as a good return? That's what I have a problem with. All GMs have done bad trades, but whenever one is made by Lowe all we see is excuses instead of the bashing every other GM gets after a bad deal.

Mr Sakich 10-05-2003 12:05 PM

for the 1,000,000th time, we did not trade weight for horacek, hecht, and reasoner. It was ONE YEAR of doug because he was gone after that year. In that year, the blues paid an extra 8 million for 7 assits more than they would have got if they kept hecht instead of doug. 8 mill for 7 assists is pretty big coin but blues fans seem to think it was a bargain.

If weight was 21 and lowe traded him for hecht, reasoner, and jan, then I would be pissed.

Lowetide 10-05-2003 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilswell
[*]Picking out spectacular trades as if they were normal. So let's assume that the Yashin trade was a fantastic one for Ottawa. Not all are that good. In fact, very few are. It pains me when someone picks a 1-in-100 trade and says: "someone else got that good deal, why couldn't X do as good?". It seems to me that whenever there's a seriously lopsided trade, there's a GM on the losing side who is desperate and/or stupid. Its not always possible to find a GM like that. Its a little silly to blame the GM if they can't find one each time...JMO.[/list]


Agreed completely. The most lopsided trade of my lifetime was the Hawks/Bruins trade that sent Phil Esposito, Fred Stanfield and Ken Hodge to Boston for Pit Martin, Gilles Marotte and Jack Norris. However, the man who made that trade (Milt Schmidt) was fired 5 years later because he lost his goalie to the WHA and his best prospect to expansion and didn't see it coming.

Lowe's done a solid job imo, although there are cleary better GM and also clearly worse GMS.

Narnia 10-05-2003 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CupBound
When we saw the Jagr/Kovalev deals we all laughed. The Weight deal is not better yet we are supposed to see it as a good return? That's what I have a problem with. All GMs have done bad trades, but whenever one is made by Lowe all we see is excuses instead of the bashing every other GM gets after a bad deal.

The problem here is that Lowe had gotten criticized for every single trade he's made before fans cooled down. If anyone got excuses it was Slats. He could do no wrong whereas Lowe can do no right.

Did you know that Lowe received death threats after trading Carter and Niinimaa. Is that anyway to treat a GM of any team? After the Hamrlik trade, fans wanted him fired. IMO, Lowe is underrated as a GM as he gets criticized for every trade and move he makes. He even gets criticized for the good trades and moves. Go figure.

theoil 10-05-2003 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lowetide
Lowe's done a solid job imo, although there are cleary better GM and also clearly worse GMS.

The problem I have comparing GM's is the same one everybody else has. How do you compare the guys playing with $65 million dollar budgets with guys playing with significantly less.

Also when Brian Burke swung that deal to get both the Sedins at the draft he made a deal that was the envy of every GM in the league. When the Sedins failed to be impact players all of a sudden he doesn't look that great but it still took the same amount of skill and negotiating to get them. With trades and drafting so much of it relies on your scouts and the GM's only real impact is hiring the right scouts in the first place and getting little extras around the edge of the trade like a third round pick or a throw in player that blossoms late.

What I like best about Lowe, though, and the reason that I think he will be a top GM in this league for a long time, is his need to win. He is not trying to build a good team - he is trying to build an excellent team. And with his budget that takes guts. Sometimes taking those extra chances costs something but I would much rather have this team than the team we had three years ago. Younger and more potential.

The trouble with the CB I am guessing is that he has never seen a winner assembled so he is a little confused about the process.


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