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-   -   Years where the best player won the Lindsay but not the hart (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1715925)

Ageless66 07-29-2014 02:53 PM

Years where the best player won the Lindsay but not the hart
 
Crosby 2013
D.sedin 2011
Jagr 06?

Who else?

drganon 07-29-2014 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ageless (Post 88479861)
Crosby 2013
D.sedin 2011
Jagr 06?

Who else?

Iginla-2002.
It was bad enough they gave the Vezina to Theodore, but giving him the Hart was beyond terrible, but that's just my opinion. He'll just have to comfort himself that the only way Theodore is getting into the hof is if he buys a ticket.

Ishdul 07-29-2014 03:12 PM

I still prefer Ovechkin to Crosby for 2013, personally.

Quote:

Originally Posted by drganon (Post 88480163)
Iginla-2002.
It was bad enough they gave the Vezina to Theodore, but giving him the Hart was beyond terrible, but that's just my opinion. He'll just have to comfort himself that the only way Theodore is getting into the hof is if he buys a ticket.

Why do you think that giving Theodore the Hart was beyond terrible?

drganon 07-29-2014 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishdul (Post 88480423)
I still prefer Ovechkin to Crosby for 2013, personally.


Why do you think that giving Theodore the Hart was beyond terrible?

Maybe saying "terrible" was pushing it, but I though Iginla deserved it more. Theodore was just having a fluke season he never came close to repeating.

Ishdul 07-29-2014 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drganon (Post 88480585)
Maybe saying "terrible" was pushing it, but I though Iginla deserved it more. Theodore was just having a fluke season he never came close to repeating.

The MVP is a seasonal award and it's probably a good thing that the voting reflects as such, and of course it was Iginla's big breakout season as well so there were no guarantees about him either. I don't think they should have tried to predict the future with Theodore's collapse.

I also thought he was pretty clearly better than Roy, playing more games at a higher level with a much, much worse team.

bigbuffalo313 07-29-2014 03:31 PM

While I think Iginla was the best in 02, I can't justify giving the Hart to someone on a non playoff team

drganon 07-29-2014 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishdul (Post 88480795)
The MVP is a seasonal award and it's probably a good thing that the voting reflects as such, and of course it was Iginla's big breakout season as well so there were no guarantees about him either. I don't think they should have tried to predict the future with Theodore's collapse.

I also thought he was pretty clearly better than Roy, playing more games at a higher level with a much, much worse team.

Yeah I guess. I can sort of live with Theodore getting the Vezina that year, but not the Hart. Thats just my opinion.

To move the topic along, was Clarke better in 74-75 than Orr when he won his only Lindsay?

Epsilon 07-29-2014 03:42 PM

Theodore getting the Hart in 2001-02 was better than him getting the Vezina, which should have gone to Roy. But he definitely deserved the Hart as MVP over Iginla who piled up points for a bad team (that started hot when Roman Turek was playing well and collapsed when that stopped, despite Iginla continuing to score). On the other hand Iginla certainly deserved the Pearson as most outstanding player.

If anyone deserved the Hart over Theodore that season, it was Roy.

JaysCyYoung 07-29-2014 04:09 PM

Crosby definitely deserved the Hart over Ovechkin in 2012-13. The latter only won it because Sid took a freak puck in the face and missed the final twelve games of the year. He wins it otherwise.

Pronger won the Hart but Jagr won the Pearson in 2000, another example of a player winning the player's vote but being penalized by the media for missing a sizeable amount of time.

Pegi90* 07-29-2014 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drganon (Post 88480163)
Iginla-2002.
It was bad enough they gave the Vezina to Theodore, but giving him the Hart was beyond terrible, but that's just my opinion. He'll just have to comfort himself that the only way Theodore is getting into the hof is if he buys a ticket.

well hart is voted for the player who "was" the most valuble for their team. if theodore played for the red wings or something, no way he would have won hart.

that's just how it goes.

Cursed Lemon 07-29-2014 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pegi90 (Post 88482065)
well hart is voted for the player who "was" the most valuble for their team. if theodore played for the red wings or something, no way he would have won hart.

that's just how it goes.

It's SUPPOSED to be, anyway.

Ishdul 07-29-2014 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaysCyYoung (Post 88481949)
Crosby definitely deserved the Hart over Ovechkin in 2012-13. The latter only won it because Sid took a freak puck in the face and missed the final twelve games of the year. He wins it otherwise.

Pronger won the Hart but Jagr won the Pearson in 2000, another example of a player winning the player's vote but being penalized by the media for missing a sizeable amount of time.

Missing a sizeable amount of time should be a big deal though? We're talking a quarter of the season in both cases, that's something that absolutely should be 'penalized'.

Tam O Shanter 07-29-2014 04:25 PM

Crosby DEFINITELY in 2013. I actually thought that this was the point in history where he was most clearly the best player.

I can't get over Naslund beating Forsberg. I was a Canucklehead in those days, and saw a ton of both of them. Forsberg was the most jaw-dropping all arounder I could remember seeing, and Naslund.... had a wicked wrister and seemed like a really nice guy.

Ishdul 07-29-2014 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pegi90 (Post 88482065)
well hart is voted for the player who "was" the most valuble for their team. if theodore played for the red wings or something, no way he would have won hart.

that's just how it goes.

This would stand if players on really good teams didn't win the Hart often, which is not true at all.

Incognito 07-29-2014 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishdul (Post 88482257)
Missing a sizeable amount of time should be a big deal though? We're talking a quarter of the season in both cases, that's something that absolutely should be 'penalized'.

The fact that Crosby was unable to dodge a 100+ mile per hour Brooks Orpik slapshot shouldn't detract from the greatness of his season. It's not like he only played five games or something. He missed a quarter of the season and still finished third in league scoring behind St. Louis and Stamkos, and tied with Ovechkin. The fact that Ovechkin played 12 more games that season but still failed to outscore Crosby even with that massive advantage should be penalized just as heavily as Crosby missing those 12 games.

Ishdul 07-29-2014 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Incognito (Post 88482443)
The fact that Crosby was unable to dodge a 100+ mile per hour Brooks Orpik slapshot shouldn't detract from the greatness of his season.

I don't see why this specific injury is an exceptional case. Injuries detract from your value. That is a rule for every player in history, across every sport in the world. You can argue about the fairness of such a rule (although that's a far more philosophical argument than seems appropriate) but I don't see the argument for ignoring it altogether. The point isn't to blame Crosby for not ducking, anyways.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Incognito (Post 88482443)
It's not like he only played five games or something. He missed a quarter of the season and still finished third in league scoring behind St. Louis and Stamkos, and tied with Ovechkin. The fact that Ovechkin played 12 more games that season but still failed to outscore Crosby even with that massive advantage should be penalized just as heavily as Crosby missing those 12 games.

The question should be: would you have preferred 36 games of 2013 Crosby to 48 of 2013 Ovechkin/Toews/Tavares/etc, which is a good, worthy debate to have (and which has been had a number of times).

quoipourquoi 07-29-2014 05:12 PM

Frankly, I don't think there was a bad choice in 2002 between Iginla, Theodore, Roy, or Burke. It does illustrate that there is a difference between "best" and "most valuable" with Theodore being voted 2nd Team All-Star by the same group that gave him the Hart. They all had their drawbacks though. Theodore had that Corey Perry surge at the end, but Montreal just wasn't going to be a playoff team in the Western Conference (where they would have finished #11th; 8 points out of the playoffs and 8 points ahead of Calgary). The Flames had nothing to play for at the end, so they started playing specifically to feed Iginla to keep him above the West Coast Express in both scoring races. Roy was in a division with those Flames and Canucks offenses, but his backup was ready to be a full-time starter, so his absence after the first three months of the season would be felt the least. Burke... well, there might not have been a damn thing wrong with Burke.

livewell68 07-29-2014 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishdul (Post 88482257)
Missing a sizeable amount of time should be a big deal though? We're talking a quarter of the season in both cases, that's something that absolutely should be 'penalized'.

Well in Jagr's case, he did miss 1/4 of the season and still won the Art Ross and finished 4th in goals and 3rd in assists. The Penguins were 2nd in the East at the time Jagr gor injured, by the time he came back, they had dropped to 9th in East. He played well enough down the stretch to help them secure the 7th seed.

Jagr lost the Hart by just 1 point and this was by far the biggest Hart robbery of all time.

Offtheboard412 07-29-2014 06:54 PM

Ovechkin in 2009 was far and away the best player but lost it for the same reason Crosby did in 2013.

Mike Farkas 07-29-2014 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishdul (Post 88482257)
Missing a sizeable amount of time should be a big deal though? We're talking a quarter of the season in both cases, that's something that absolutely should be 'penalized'.

One player was forced out for a quarter of the season. One player voluntarily took a nap for a quarter of the season.

Crosby was easily the best player in the NHL in 2013. That really was an outright theft...

Mike Farkas 07-29-2014 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Offtheboard412 (Post 88486523)
Ovechkin in 2009 was far and away the best player but lost it for the same reason Crosby did in 2013.

Ovechkin won the Hart in 2009.

livewell68 07-29-2014 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Offtheboard412 (Post 88486523)
Ovechkin in 2009 was far and away the best player but lost it for the same reason Crosby did in 2013.

2010?

There have been times when a player has missed 10 games and still won the Art Ross (Lemieux and Jagr come to mind) but Ovechkin also did slow down considerably down the stretch. He went from having a 1.65 PPG for more than 50 games during the season and finished with 1.51 PPG. I think that hurt his chances just as much as his injury/ suspension did.

Henrik Sedin despite getting a bad rap and being labelled as an "opportunist" and weak Art Ross winner, to his credit, he still won the award.

vadim sharifijanov 07-29-2014 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tam O Shanter (Post 88482329)
Crosby DEFINITELY in 2013. I actually thought that this was the point in history where he was most clearly the best player.

I can't get over Naslund beating Forsberg. I was a Canucklehead in those days, and saw a ton of both of them. Forsberg was the most jaw-dropping all arounder I could remember seeing, and Naslund.... had a wicked wrister and seemed like a really nice guy.

but that one was due to the voting taking place before/during forsberg's ridiculous stretch run to catch and then pass naslund wasn't it?

say you get your pearson ballot march 15. forsberg is at 65 games, 25 goals, 63 assists, 87 points. naslund is at 72 games, 42 goals, 50 assists, 92 points. (point of comparison, hejduk is at 41 goals, 42 assists, 83 points.) the canucks were in first place in the division (for the first time since 1993), with 93 points. the avs, who had won the division in each of the previous seven years, were second with 90 points.

if everyone continues that exact same pace until game 82, this is how it goes:

forsberg: 29 goals, 73 assists, 102 points
hejduk: 47 goals, 48 assists, 95 points
naslund: 48 goals, 57 assists, 105 points
avs: 103 points
canucks: 106 points

(actual final results:

forsberg: 29, 77, 106
naslund: 48, 56, 104
hejduk: 50, 48, 98
avs: 105
canucks: 104)

i think it's pretty understandable, even if yeah forsberg was clearly the better player. it really looked for a while like naslund was finally going to top his buddy, both individually and in team success. if naslund finishes with the art ross and the canucks win the division, i might have given him a pearson vote too.

though i think the right pearson choice as of march 15 was probably al macinnis.

reckoning 07-29-2014 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drganon (Post 88481179)
Yeah I guess. I can sort of live with Theodore getting the Vezina that year, but not the Hart. Thats just my opinion.

To move the topic along, was Clarke better in 74-75 than Orr when he won his only Lindsay?

Orr was the better player, Clarke was more valuable to his team. Both awards went to the right person.

Ishdul 07-29-2014 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by livewell68 (Post 88486361)
Well in Jagr's case, he did miss 1/4 of the season and still won the Art Ross and finished 4th in goals and 3rd in assists. The Penguins were 2nd in the East at the time Jagr gor injured, by the time he came back, they had dropped to 9th in East. He played well enough down the stretch to help them secure the 7th seed.

Jagr lost the Hart by just 1 point and this was by far the biggest Hart robbery of all time.

Pronger should have won in a blowout, IMO, and didn't because there were a lot of people who wouldn't have ever voted for a defenseman.


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