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-   -   Better offensively: Jagr vs. Howe (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1716041)

Fred Taylor 07-29-2014 08:28 PM

Better offensively: Jagr vs. Howe
 
Who do you consider the better offensive player? I think this one is up for debate.

Fred Taylor 07-29-2014 08:29 PM

Could I get a poll for this please? Thanks in advance.

livewell68 07-29-2014 08:30 PM

I think it's up for a debate but unfortunately it won't end being much of a debate anyways. Howe will get the "Immortal" treatment while Jagr will just be severely underrated on here.

I think at their very best, they are about equal. Howe having the longer peak while Jagr having the slightly better peak in my mind.

I'm waiting for all the hate.

BraveCanadian 07-29-2014 08:47 PM

Right off the top of my head without spending much time at it:

I think Jagr peaked slightly higher but, as it does in most cases, Gordie's freakish longevity probably wins out in the end.

livewell68 07-29-2014 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BraveCanadian (Post 88487741)
Right off the top of my head without spending much time at it:

I think Jagr peaked slightly higher but, as it does in most cases, Gordie's freakish longevity probably wins out in the end.

I agree with you 100%.

livewell68 07-29-2014 08:50 PM

I know it's wishful thinking, even borderline dreaming but lets say Jagr somehow found the true "Fountain of Youth" this upcoming season and somehow pulled off a miracle and wrapped up his 6th Art Ross trophy, do you think his place among "The 4 Immortals" can be discussed?

pensfan7477 07-29-2014 08:53 PM

Not a chance. IMO Jagr is top ten all time but he isn't getting in the big four.

Copmuter* 07-29-2014 08:55 PM

It's tough to compare the two because Howe used such inferior equipment against inferior goaltenders

Having said that, I would think Jagr is the more talented of the two

livewell68 07-29-2014 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pensfan7477 (Post 88487923)
Not a chance. IMO Jagr is top ten all time but he isn't getting in the big four.

Couldn't it be made to include a "Big 5"?

It would tie him with Howe and Lemieux for the 2nd most Art Ross trophies and could garner him his 2nd Hart and 4th Pearson as well his 7th overall Hart nomination.

I know it would never happen but I think it would be interesting to see what the public and media perception of his legacy would be if he were to miraculously pull it off. Something tells me that deep down inside he still burns to win another Art Ross (something he came so close to doing in 2005-06).

Hockey Outsider 07-29-2014 09:02 PM

Howe won four scoring titles by 20%+ (34% margin of victory in 1953, 30% in 1951, 25% in 1952 and 21% in 1954). Jagr only won two scoring titles by 10%+ (19% in 1999 and 12% in 1998). Obviously Jagr played in a larger, deeper league, but is that big enough to make up the statistical difference? Howe was also far superior defensively.

pensfan7477 07-29-2014 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by livewell68 (Post 88488045)
Couldn't it be made to include a "Big 5"?

It would tie him with Howe and Lemieux for the 2nd most Art Ross trophies and could garner him his 2nd Hart and 4th Pearson as well his 7th overall Hart nomination.

I know it would never happen but I think it would be interesting to see what the public and media perception of his legacy would be if he were to miraculously pull it off. Something tells me that deep down inside he still burns to win another Art Ross (something he came so close to doing in 2005-06).

This is just my opinion but he never really did anything to get into the top 5. Everything he's done has been done before. I dunno Jagr just isn't in that class of player. He's as close as you can get though. I could see him as high as #7!

livewell68 07-29-2014 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider (Post 88488147)
Howe won four scoring titles by 20%+ (34% margin of victory in 1953, 30% in 1951, 25% in 1952 and 21% in 1954). Jagr only won two scoring titles by 10%+ (19% in 1999 and 12% in 1998). Obviously Jagr played in a larger, deeper league, but is that big enough to make up the statistical difference? Howe was also far superior defensively.

The larger hockey pool and the European influence should be worth noting though, shouldn't it?

I'm willing to suggest that the longer a season (more games you play) the harder it is to maintain those large % of scoring domination of peers. Obviously it would be worth researching and exploring.

Could it be a suggestion to make that Jagr is the modern Howe? 11 top 10 scoring finishes, 7 top 2 finishes, 9 top 5 finishes?

livewell68 07-29-2014 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider (Post 88488147)
Howe won four scoring titles by 20%+ (34% margin of victory in 1953, 30% in 1951, 25% in 1952 and 21% in 1954). Jagr only won two scoring titles by 10%+ (19% in 1999 and 12% in 1998). Obviously Jagr played in a larger, deeper league, but is that big enough to make up the statistical difference? Howe was also far superior defensively.

Jagr's % would have been even larger in 2000 had he not missed 19 games. He still won the Art Ross by 2 Pts though, he was projected to score 125 Pts in 82 games and would have won the Art Ross by 31 Pts.

Regal 07-29-2014 09:12 PM

I don't see how Jagr peaked higher than Howe's four consecutive art rosses by huge margins. Jagr was capable of that too, but not to that level of consistency I don't think. I would say their peaks are pretty similar, with a slight edge to Howe when looking at top 7-8 prime years and then a big edge to Howe in longevity. In some respects I feel that Jagr could have kept running off Art Rosses for longer if he hadn't gone to Washington, which would make his prime better, but I'm not sure I can give him the benefit of the doubt when I wasn't around for Howe to know how I would view him in the years he wasn't scoring at the top of the league.

pensfan7477 07-29-2014 09:16 PM

If Jagr would have won Arts in Washington I could see it.

Ageless66 07-29-2014 09:43 PM

Howe AINEC to being close

Dennis Bonvie 07-29-2014 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by livewell68 (Post 88488277)
The larger hockey pool and the European influence should be worth noting though, shouldn't it?

I'm willing to suggest that the longer a season (more games you play) the harder it is to maintain those large % of scoring domination of peers. Obviously it would be worth researching and exploring.

Could it be a suggestion to make that Jagr is the modern Howe? 11 top 10 scoring finishes, 7 top 2 finishes, 9 top 5 finishes?

Compared to Howe's 20 top 5 finishes?

Beau Knows 07-29-2014 10:22 PM

Howe.

Boxscore 07-29-2014 10:33 PM

Strictly offensively, Jagr.

More skilled, Jagr.

Better all-around, Howe.

IMO Gretzky and Lemieux are 1A/1B all-time offensively. Jagr is behind them with Orr, slightly ahead of Howe.

TheDevilMadeMe 07-29-2014 10:37 PM

Howe wins this easily. Anyone who thinks Jagr has a case is willing to write off the majority of hockey history

TheDevilMadeMe 07-29-2014 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by livewell68 (Post 88487835)
I know it's wishful thinking, even borderline dreaming but lets say Jagr somehow found the true "Fountain of Youth" this upcoming season and somehow pulled off a miracle and wrapped up his 6th Art Ross trophy, do you think his place among "The 4 Immortals" can be discussed?

Nope

Boxscore 07-29-2014 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 88490747)
Anyone who thinks Jagr has a case is willing to write off the majority of hockey history

How so? Because we think Jagr was more offensively talented than Howe? Howe's career and longevity was simply amazing. He was also top-5 strictly offensively IMO. How is that writing off hockey history?

Boxscore 07-29-2014 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by livewell68 (Post 88487835)
I know it's wishful thinking, even borderline dreaming but lets say Jagr somehow found the true "Fountain of Youth" this upcoming season and somehow pulled off a miracle and wrapped up his 6th Art Ross trophy, do you think his place among "The 4 Immortals" can be discussed?

No. And I love Jagr.

All-around, Gordie was better and more dominant. Orr, Gretzky and Mario can't be touched.

Cursed Lemon 07-29-2014 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie (Post 88489777)
Compared to Howe's 20 top 5 finishes?

Seriously, this.

Killion 07-29-2014 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred Taylor (Post 88487287)
Who do you consider the better offensive player? I think this one is up for debate.

Based on that criteria alone, sure, fun debate. Set up a Poll as per your request again, based quite specifically on that narrow window of comparison..... I'd go with Howe even excluding the rest of his game, which if considered & included would no longer make the comparisons to Jagr relevant or really very fair. Wouldnt do justice to either player really. But within that narrow scope, sure. We can make comparisons. Decide who we'd prefer based on statistics, overtime & shorthanded goals, intangibles....


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