HFBoards

HFBoards (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/index.php)
-   Edmonton Oilers (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/forumdisplay.php?f=38)
-   -   Oilers vs Senators Forwards (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=17999)

elphy101 10-07-2003 09:26 PM

Oilers vs Senators Forwards
 
I was looking at the possible forward lineups of both the Oilers and the Senators. This post is assuming both Havlat and Comrie sign with their team eventually. I feel that the Oilers forward line are actually competitive with those of the Senators.

White Spezza Alfredsson
Schaefer Bonk Hossa
Schaelivy Smolinsky Havlat
Varada Fisher Neil

vs

Smyth Comrie Dvorak
Isbister York Hemsky
Moreau Reasoner Pisani
Torres Horcoff Laraque


First off,

1. The veteran leader, both Ryan Smyth and Daniel Alfredson are the leaders of their teams, both are capable of 30 goals and wear their hearts on their sleeves.

2. The young star. I think Mike Comrie and Martin Havlat are very similar in this category. Comrie has put up more goals but Havlat provides better defense and brings more dazzle.

3. The future superstar. Jason Spezza will be a star in this league, so will Ales Hemsky. The sky is the limit on these two players.

4. Although the Oilers have no one to match Hossa's 40 goals, Isbister, Dvorak and York could come quite close to matching the production Ottawa would get from Hossa, White and Bonk. I don't expect the Oiler's three to match it, but if they live up to their billing, they could come close.

5. The third lines, if you bump schaefer down since Havlat has been compared. I think these two are pretty similar. Smolinski and Moreau are too far apart. And I don't see much difference between Reasoner and Pisani vs Schaefer and Schalivy.

6. The fourth lines. Torres and Varada are very comparable. I like Torres better but it's debatable. Horcoff and Fisher are both centers that could play in the top two lines on most NHL teams. Laraque and Neil, both solid NHL tough guys. I like Laraque but Neil is pretty similar and cheaper.

In all, I really don't see much difference between these two forward rosters. I really expect the Oilers to surprise this year.

I'm not saying the Oilers are as good as Ottawa. Just that I think their forwards are quite comparable. Ottawa still has much better Goaltending and Defense. Lalime and a top six of Redden, Chara, Phillips, Rachunek, Volchenkov and Leschysyn is hard to match.

LoudmouthHemskyfan#1 10-07-2003 09:29 PM

Ottawa still has us by a fair ways in terms of forwards. Much more true top-end talent.

And then if you get into the other areas, their defence and goaltending, we really lose out.

We should be as good as Ottawa in the future, and of course better should things go our way, but not yet.

thome_26 10-07-2003 09:31 PM

Who is our match for Hossa? Exactly.... Sens have the best set of forwards in the NHL for my money (the Avs forwards are old and full of to be FA's)

elphy101 10-07-2003 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thome_26
Who is our match for Hossa? Exactly.... Sens have the best set of forwards in the NHL for my money (the Avs forwards are old and full of to be FA's)

I agree, the Sens have the best forwards in the NHL. Looking at this, I don't think the Oilers are that far behind.

LoudmouthHemskyfan#1 10-07-2003 09:41 PM

To me, it's two main things:


The Oilers are missing a Hossa. Ottawa has a huge advantage here, one more big-time scorer than us.

The depth players: You've got Smolinski, you've got Havlat playing on the 3rd line, you've got Varada, you've got Mike Fisher and Peter Schaefer. That is some serious depth. All guys that can get it done offensively, we have way more question marks in this regard than they do. They also have no defensive slouches on that team, so it's not like they're sending out a bunch of fire-wagon players, these guys can play ANY system, and that is their strength.

Mowzie 10-07-2003 09:43 PM

I still think Ottawa has us by quite a bit. i will however agree with you that the Oilers are being underestimated this year. they lost alot of guys but overall, they will be better.
-Salo will have a bounce back year.
-We have more consistency in our forwards.
-our PP will be alot better.
-We have more "call up depth" than last year (Swanson, Cleary replaced with Salmo and Rita)
-Our defensive core is solid with the only question mark being Cory Cross, but it think that MA Bergeron could come up and be solid in a few dozen games.

Oilers Hockey 10-07-2003 09:47 PM

Quote:

the Oilers are being underestimated this year
Well after years of mediocrity, its up to them to prove everyone wrong. I know they can do it, we all know what this team can do, but they haven't shown any true consistency yet.

BTW: I feel Oilers have great depth which will develop into a serious force to be reckoned with in a few years, but as of right now the Senators are light years ahead in talent.

elphy101 10-07-2003 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoudmouthHemskyfan#1
To me, it's two main things:


The Oilers are missing a Hossa. Ottawa has a huge advantage here, one more big-time scorer than us.

The depth players: You've got Smolinski, you've got Havlat playing on the 3rd line, you've got Varada, you've got Mike Fisher and Peter Schaefer. That is some serious depth.


The lack of Hossa is the biggest gap. I would argue though that York>White, Dvorak=Bonk, but Hossa>>>Isbister. But then again, if Isbister pans out this year, that could close alot.

Horcoff=Fisher, Torres=Varada,

Schaefer is similar to Moreau, who is older, but he also plays a more physical and is an important leader on the Oilers. You could also compare Chimera with Schaefer.

Smolinski is not matched but Reasoner brings alot of the same intangibles, I think Reasoner might even be the better checking center.

This is probably Oiler bias. But in my opinion.

LoudmouthHemskyfan#1 10-07-2003 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphy101
The lack of Hossa is the biggest gap. I would argue though that York>White, Dvorak=Bonk, but Hossa>>>Isbister. But then again, if Isbister pans out this year, that could close alot.

Horcoff=Fisher, Torres=Varada,

Schaefer is similar to Moreau, who is older, but he also plays a more physical and is an important leader on the Oilers. You could also compare Chimera with Schaefer.

Smolinski is not matched but Reasoner brings alot of the same intangibles, I think Reasoner might even be the better checking center.

This is probably Oiler bias. But in my opinion.

Yeah, we'll disagree a bit here. To me, York is better than White, but might not play like it in this lineup. Bonk is better than Dvorak to me as well, he's shown an ability to put up semi-consistent points. Hopefully Dvorak does the same. Hossa of course we agree on. Horcoff is not equal to Fisher though I'd argue, not actually very close even. Closer than some, but not right there with him. And Torres being = to Varada is pretty speculative and hopeful, I don't see that much coming from him. Schaefer is another guy, who on any given night, can actually score the goals to win a game because the skill is there, Chimera is close, but not quite. Smolinski is also another guy, who, given the chance, puts up the numbers, again, talented hockey player. Not saying Marty isn't, and I'd probably even rather have Marty because of age, but in terms of this year, Smolinski gives an advantage. That lineup is SO DEEP. The people of Ottawa are really lucky.

Digger12 10-07-2003 10:02 PM

2 years ago, the Senators were only 2 points better than the Oilers. The difference now?

-Hossa went from a 30 goal player to a 40 goal player. That is huge.
-Lalime grew to become an above average starting goaltender, though he does benefit from a team system that doesn't require their goalie to stand on his head every night.
-They got a great return on Yashin...Chara far exceeded everyone's expectations and is now the model that we hope Semenov can achieve. Spezza is going to be a star. Hell, just getting rid of Yashin can be considered a plus move.
-Their overall system has evolved to something that is VERY hard to beat. They almost remind me of those Soviet Red Army teams, they come at you like a machine that just grinds you to powder. Mr. Martin isn't the most intense guy around, but he knows how to coach a hockey team.

Iggy-4-50 10-07-2003 10:12 PM

Sorry to burst your bubbles here guys but i fail to see what the Oilers have in comparison to Ottawa,aside from a fairly nice set of forwards theres nothing,and this season will prove that!
Everyone is picking Ottawa to be in the finals,are you guys playing them?

Sorry to be harsh...but please!

elphy101 10-07-2003 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Digger12
2 years ago, the Senators were only 2 points better than the Oilers. The difference now?

-Hossa went from a 30 goal player to a 40 goal player. That is huge.
-Lalime grew to become an above average starting goaltender, though he does benefit from a team system that doesn't require their goalie to stand on his head every night.
-They got a great return on Yashin...Chara far exceeded everyone's expectations and is now the model that we hope Semenov can achieve. Spezza is going to be a star. Hell, just getting rid of Yashin can be considered a plus move.
-Their overall system has evolved to something that is VERY hard to beat. They almost remind me of those Soviet Red Army teams, they come at you like a machine that just grinds you to powder. Mr. Martin isn't the most intense guy around, but he knows how to coach a hockey team.

I have to agree with you a 3 points and throw in 2 more for why the Senators are better.

1. Marian Hossa, that step to 40 goals like you said was huge.
2. Lalime is playing alot better than Salo
3. Chara is far better than the Oiler's 2nd dman. Hopefully in a few years, Semenov will develop into that type of player. He has the potential.
4. Ottawa's 4-6 defense is a hell of alot better. Phillips, Rachunek, Volchenkov and Leschysyn are awesome
5. I think this is also quite important. Ottawa plays in the eastern conference, most of those games are against Eastern conference teams. That makes winning alot easier.

In the Eastern conference, 3 teams have made it to the finals in the last 6 years and missed the playoffs the following year. Carolina, Buffalo and Washington. I don't think one of those teams would have made it past the 2nd round in the West.

elphy101 10-07-2003 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T@T
Sorry to burst your bubbles here guys but i fail to see what the Oilers have in comparison to Ottawa,aside from a fairly nice set of forwards theres nothing,and this season will prove that!
Everyone is picking Ottawa to be in the finals,are you guys playing them?
Sorry to be harsh...but please!

Where does it say The Oilers are as good as the Senators. I'm the only one that's even said the forwards are almost comparable. And i've stated that Ottawa has by far better defense and goaltending. Read the fricking posts before you come trolling.

dawgbone 10-08-2003 04:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T@T
Sorry to burst your bubbles here guys but i fail to see what the Oilers have in comparison to Ottawa,aside from a fairly nice set of forwards theres nothing,and this season will prove that!
Everyone is picking Ottawa to be in the finals,are you guys playing them?

Sorry to be harsh...but please!

That is nice that everyone is picking them.

But they still need to win 3 playoff rounds to get there.

And they still need to prove that they can beat the Leafs or the Devils in a playoff series.

quat 10-08-2003 05:07 AM

Certainly the Oilers strength is their group of forwards this season. If they had the Sens excellent blue line corps backed with Lalime, I'd say they were pretty frickin good... but as noted, they are lacking in both those areas today. Though I don't think Salo is as bad as many seem to feel... in fact, I think the guys is actually pretty good.

I think one of the big errors in comparing forwards, is that you speculate a bit much by saying, if the Oiler players play as well as they are thought to be able to, or as with Dovorak, did at one time... while the Sens have proven they are capable of that level of play by doing it for the past couple of years. Brad Isbister is just too big a question mark at this time to in all fairness put his name anywhere near Hossa. I would hesitate before posting something like that... heh...

Lot's of new faces, and some interesting prospects in the wings. All in all, an exciting time to be an Oiler fan.

SensGod 10-08-2003 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dawgbone
That is nice that everyone is picking them.

But they still need to win 3 playoff rounds to get there.

And they still need to prove that they can beat the Leafs or the Devils in a playoff series.

The Sens have beat the Devils in a playoff series...mind you it was like 5 years ago...but they have done it.

The Sens have everything to lose this year...and quite frankly they are probably are the most intimidating team out there right now. Other teams are going to be gripping their sticks a little tighter because they don't want to screw up and have Ottawa capatilize on it...

thome_26 10-08-2003 05:56 AM

Ottawa is easily the team that is scaring people. I mean I don't think I've seen a respected forcaster or analyst NOT pick them to make the finals - much less win the cup. Here is how I would break it down:
Smyth=Alfredson
Bonk=<York York is as good defensively and puts up the numbers as well
Isbister<Hossa
Chimera>Shaefer
Hemsky=Spezza from what they've shown Spezza has a slight edge
Dvorak=White Dvo can be MUCH better, White is a sure 20 goals scorer though

That's how I'd look at the top six

discostu 10-08-2003 06:27 AM

Saw the thread title, which caught my eye. Here's some comparisons from a Sens point of view:

These are rough comparisons, so even if a slight edge goes to one player, I'll still mark it down as equal.

Alfie = Smyth, this one has been discussed. Two star players and captains for their team.

Havlat = Comrie, Both are similar talents, however, both have played different roles so far in their career. Havlat, as the third best player at his position on his team, while Comrie has been pushed as the #1 Centre on the team for the past couple of years. However, both have the skill to give them that "star" label, plus, both are holdouts, so the comparison is inevitable.

Spezza = Hemskey: Spezza's got the edge, personally, but Hemsky's certainly starting to gain some attention for what he's going to do this year.

Schastlivy = Dvorak. Both guys have some great offensive potential, however, both are held back by injuries. Both probably have similar upsides if they do manage to get in 70+ games this season.

White = York. Both are smaller centres/LW that will produce in the 50 to 60 point range.

After those, the comparison become a bit of a stretch, and Ottawa's depth wins out. Not compared at this point, Ottawa has:
Hossa, Bonk, Smolinksi, Fisher, Schaefer, Varada, Neil

While Edmonton has:
Isbister, Reasoner, Torres, Horcoff, Pisani, Moreau, Laraque

Those comparisons start to favour Ottawa pretty heavily. Edmonton still has a good forward core. I would probably rank it around 10th to 15th or so in the league. A lot of the depth guys are pretty young and inexperienced though, so a lot of how well this team will do will depend on how well these guys handle increased roles.

thome_26 10-08-2003 06:38 AM

I think they'd easily be higher then top 15 - they are def. a top ten atleast. I mean who's ahead of them?
Avs, Sens, Devils, Flyers, Anaheim..... those'd be the teams I'd put ahead of them.... then there would be four-five teams who would all be arguable...... I'll say one thing though - the Devils forwards ranks won't be NEARLY as scary as in the past! No Yzerman (He might be present, but he isn't close to what he was) No Federov (has been one of the the top 3-4 two way centers in the NHL). Brett Hull is ancient and is poised to take a drop eventually. Larionov was an important part of those teams and was good two ways as well. Now there is a HUGE lack of defensively responsible forwards after the grind line. Zetterberg is a good young talent, but Datsyuk was riding on Hull's coat-tails, and unless he can really step up and emerge as an anchor they could be in some trouble.

discostu 10-08-2003 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thome_26
I think they'd easily be higher then top 15 - they are def. a top ten atleast. I mean who's ahead of them?
Avs, Sens, Devils, Flyers, Anaheim..... those'd be the teams I'd put ahead of them.... then there would be four-five teams who would all be arguable...... I'll say one thing though - the Devils forwards ranks won't be NEARLY as scary as in the past! No Yzerman (He might be present, but he isn't close to what he was) No Federov (has been one of the the top 3-4 two way centers in the NHL). Brett Hull is ancient and is poised to take a drop eventually. Larionov was an important part of those teams and was good two ways as well. Now there is a HUGE lack of defensively responsible forwards after the grind line. Zetterberg is a good young talent, but Datsyuk was riding on Hull's coat-tails, and unless he can really step up and emerge as an anchor they could be in some trouble.

If it's any consolation, when I put 10-15th, I had them closer to 10th in my mind. I couldn't justify putting them in the top 10 though, since there are quite a few teams I probably would put ahead of them.

I still consider Detroit to have a stronger forward core. Most of their guys are on the decline, but there's enough talent there, IMO, plus they're pretty strong on their 3rd and 4th lines.

Toronto, as much as I hate them, are strong at forward. St. Louis is also pretty strong. The Rangers have the talent as well, it's just a matter if they're going to use it or not.

There's a couple of teams who have a stronger top-end than Edmonton, like Boston, Vancouver and Tampa Bay, but may not have the depth. I would put Vancouver ahead of Edmonton. Boston and Tampa Bay are iffy though.

Everything at this time of the year is all theoretical though. Like I said earlier, Edmonton's got a young group there, which usually makes them more coachable, and gives them the potential to be more than the sum of their parts. As the season progresses, we'll see how the work as a team.

riles 10-08-2003 07:18 AM

I think we're just a few years behind Ottawa at this stage, meaning we are where they were a few years ago. Just need a few players to break out to become an elite team. They had Hossa, Chara, and Lalime who improved drastically to make them an elite team. I'd say Hemsky and Semenov will make the difference on F and D, but I don't see us having a real elite goalie in the near future.

oilswell 10-08-2003 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thome_26
Sens have the best set of forwards in the NHL for my money (the Avs forwards are old and full of to be FA's)

Experience sounds like a good thing. Also, to-be-FAs, for some unfathomable reason, tend to play extremely well their last year of a contract. Weird how that happens.

Ages of Avs top-6 forwards:
Code:

34 Sakic
33 Selanne
30 Forsberg
29 Kariya
27 Hejduk
24 Tanguy

Prime of career or just before prime. I think you might be better off just taking a position that you like Ottawa's players or their mix better.

Mizral 10-08-2003 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphy101
I agree, the Sens have the best forwards in the NHL. Looking at this, I don't think the Oilers are that far behind.

Dunno about that. I would put the Sens a few points down the list. I would argue that the Stars have clearly the best forwards in the NHL. Let's go down the depth charts:

Modano versus Alfredson (Clearly Modano, though Alfy isn't bad)

Guerin versus Hossa (When healthy, this is close, but Hossa since Guerin isn't 100% healthy)

Lehtinen versus Bonk (I love Bonk, but Lehts takes this)

Arnott versus Havlat (I'll take Arnott. Stupid mistakes aside, he is not that far behind Havlat offensivly, and is an absolute force out there physically)

Turgeon versus White (Push, at this point)

Morrow versus Fisher (I'll take Morrow)

Young versus Smolinski (Two very streaky players, but I like Scott Young)

Kapanen versus Spezza (Spezza I guess)

Ott versus Varada (Varada wins this one clearly)

Not sure on the other depth players for the Stars this year. Is DiMaio back? I guess I'll know in a few hours (when the game starts). I know Schtaslivy and Neil are in the mix for the Sens there (I really like Chris Neil), but if I look at what I've posted above, I feel the Stars have not only better forwards than the Sens, but the best forwards in the league.

hackey 10-08-2003 01:03 PM

Ottawa / Edmonton is a fair comparison. The only difference is, Ottawa is probably 2 years ahead in terms of player developement. Also Ottawa has better goaltending, pp and overall team balance. Ottawa has also been able to keep their top players/team intact.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:37 AM.

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com, A property of CraveOnline, a division of AtomicOnline LLC ©2009 CraveOnline Media, LLC. All Rights Reserved.