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-   -   Bertuzzi Hypothetical (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=18390)

NYVanfan 10-09-2003 05:12 AM

Bertuzzi Hypothetical
 
Despite the fact that I love this guy and want him to be a Canuck for his whole career.....there have been rumours lately that the salary renogotiations are not going as absolutely swimmingly as the Canuck brass would hope. And while I know this is very premature with the season not even started, but there is a possibility that he'll be priced out of the Canucks budget come next summer. I hope it doesn't happen, but if it does, I was curious to see was the pundits on this board would think he could fetch in a trade -- remembering that the Canucks biggest needs are top line winger or center or possibly franchise goaltender. It goes without saying that the salary coming back would have to be lower that the salary going...

Any ideas?

Cheers

Dar 10-09-2003 05:25 AM

Not many people he won't fetch. Unless of course he's asking for something like 9-10 mill a year. Then you're limited to choosing off the Rangers roster.

GB 10-09-2003 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dar
Not many people he won't fetch. Unless of course he's asking for something like 9-10 mill a year. Then you're limited to choosing off the Rangers roster.

I agree. If he has another big season and then has some play-off success Vancouver could pretty much name their price.

Liam

oilers_guy_eddie 10-09-2003 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GB Editor
I agree. If he has another big season and then has some play-off success Vancouver could pretty much name their price.

Liam

...and so could Bertuzzi. Is he an RFA after this season?

thome_26 10-09-2003 06:15 AM

Perhaps they could, but then so could Bertuzzi, which would make a trade VERY difficult. Would something like this be close:
Mapletoft, Parrish, Asham or Blake, and a second
for
Bertuzzi

Isles finaly get the winger they have needed badly for Yashin (those two would dominate the Atlantic Div.) the Nucks would be getting a first liner in Parrish who would no doubt thrive playing with Naslund and Asham or Blake would be good second or third liners that would add grit and some scoring ability to the team. Mapletoft and a second are in there as obviously Bertuzzi's value would be real high.

nucks2001 10-09-2003 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thome_26
Perhaps they could, but then so could Bertuzzi, which would make a trade VERY difficult. Would something like this be close:
Mapletoft, Parrish, Asham or Blake, and a second
for
Bertuzzi

Isles finaly get the winger they have needed badly for Yashin (those two would dominate the Atlantic Div.) the Nucks would be getting a first liner in Parrish who would no doubt thrive playing with Naslund and Asham or Blake would be good second or third liners that would add grit and some scoring ability to the team. Mapletoft and a second are in there as obviously Bertuzzi's value would be real high.

no.. any deal for Bertuzzi would have to include at least 1 part of the trade being a blue chip prospect or a top young player.

membleypeg 10-09-2003 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thome_26
Perhaps they could, but then so could Bertuzzi, which would make a trade VERY difficult. Would something like this be close:
Mapletoft, Parrish, Asham or Blake, and a second
for
Bertuzzi

Isles finaly get the winger they have needed badly for Yashin (those two would dominate the Atlantic Div.) the Nucks would be getting a first liner in Parrish who would no doubt thrive playing with Naslund and Asham or Blake would be good second or third liners that would add grit and some scoring ability to the team. Mapletoft and a second are in there as obviously Bertuzzi's value would be real high.

I don't think that Burke would spend much time with this trade offer. Parrish would be the only player of value (come on Mapletoft is in the ECHL) to the Canucks for his scoring ability. Asham and Blake types are already covered in our 3rd and 4th lines.

Any trade involving the Isles and Bert would have to include Isles core players. My guess would be something along the lines of the following; To Van - Peca + Depietro + Isles 2004 1st
To NYI - Bert + Van 2004 2nd.

xtra 10-09-2003 06:43 AM

A deal that i could see happening is this:

Morrisson + Bertuzzi
for
Spezza + Havlat and Volchenkov and ott 1st

ottawa is deep on defense so losing Volchenkov doesn't hurt much.

they get a center to replace spezza. the most dominating winger in the game and for sure a cup.



but this would be depend on the nucks rebuilding and Melynk saying the sens can add about 10 million to the payroll

thome_26 10-09-2003 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by membleypeg
To Van - Peca + Depietro + Isles 2004 1st
To NYI - Bert + Van 2004 2nd.

Not a chance - I'm affraid Peca is WAY to valueable to the Isles to trade him PLUS Depietro for Bertuzzi - much less take a loss on the pick in 04.

thome_26 10-09-2003 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xtra
Morrisson + Bertuzzi
for
Spezza + Havlat and Volchenkov and ott 1st

Scrap the first and that might be fairly close.... this is how I'd break it down:
Havlat>>Morrison
Spezza, Volchenkov=Bertuzzi

As an Oiler and Sens fan I'd hate that trade though. I would hate to see Spezza in Vancouver and not in Ottawa. I don't think Spezza would go by himself for Bertuzzi though, as he's one of the top 2-3 young guys in the NHL. This kid'll probably be Joe Thorntons second line center on team canada in 7-8 years.

Mr Sakich 10-09-2003 07:10 AM

I don't think yo will see too many 28 year old guys get traded this year. Many have predicted that the ufa age will be lowered in the next cba in return for cost certainty.

Bert will be 29 in january and quite possibly a ufa after this season.

Burke's Evil Spirit 10-09-2003 07:26 AM

If Bertuzzi does become a UFA early, it won't be a worst-case scenario since I'm assuming that would be a trade-off to get some fiscal restraint in place, in which case Burke could compete financially.

Personally, I would only move Bertuzzi if, come Fall 2004, there was a protracted holdout and bad-faith negotiations, by which time his trade value will already be pretty low. I think you'd probably see a deal like this:

To NYR: Todd Bertuzzi
To VAN: Anson Carter, Hugh Jessiman

...or something. I think he will get signed, though.

kastaure 10-09-2003 07:29 AM

Big Bert can fetch Ovechin and a great young goaler...

I guess Atlanta who have the most chance to get the last place this year could send Ovechin and one of their goaler !

#37-#93-#27* 10-09-2003 07:30 AM

I think Toronto would make an offer for him even if they have one of the highest payrolls. Rangers will most definitely make a run at him.

Bure, Lindros, Kovalev, Malakhov, Mironov, Richter, Mark Messier, Petr Nedved, Martin Rucinsky, Matt Barnaby all go off the payroll this year.

#37-#93-#27* 10-09-2003 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kastaure
Big Bert can fetch Ovechin and a great young goaler...

I guess Atlanta who have the most chance to get the last place this year could send Ovechin and one of their goaler !

Why would Atlanta want to do that? Trade two great young players, arguably the best at their respective positions for a 30 year old forward no less that's a lot older then the nucleus of the team. I'm sure Atlanta wants to continue their building plan they've been on ever since they came to existence.

Bertuzzi will not be sipping any Champaign when Atlanta wins it's first cup, Lehtonen and Ovechkin are young enough and could do more for that.

Peter Griffin 10-09-2003 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thor dyck
I don't think yo will see too many 28 year old guys get traded this year. Many have predicted that the ufa age will be lowered in the next cba in return for cost certainty.

Bert will be 29 in january and quite possibly a ufa after this season.

Nope. The CBA doesn't expire until Sept 15th, 2004. The Canucks can give Bertuzzi a qualifying offer and retain his rights under the old CBA. Unless the NHL decides to not honour any contracts heading in to the new CBA(very unlikely), Bert will remain Vancouver property for as long as it takes to get the new CBA done. If Todd was smart, he'd try to get a long term deal done before the CBA expires, because you never know what the new CBA will bring.

As for a return on Bertuzzi, if he were dealt the Canucks would have to decide whether they trade him for established players, or trade him for younger potential stars and decide to start another re-build.

Reign Nateo 10-09-2003 08:54 AM

As mentioned before, Bertuzzi will be under the current CBA when his contract expires, because of the date of it's expiration.

-He will not be a UFA
-The Canucks will at least maintain his rights until he is 31
-The Canucks will re-sign him, its an ineviatbility.

If you want to think of a package, think of Tkachuk to St. Louis but more.

Handzus
Nagy
Taffe
1st

+another prospect for Bertuzzi.

Hi-wayman 10-09-2003 08:57 AM

In an interview last night Bertuzzi said he was not looking to be the highest paid player in the NHL. Speculation is that he will end up in the $5 to $7.5 million/ yr range with a 2 to 3 year deal. Also brought up was the fact that if Bertuzzi does not sign before the end of the year, his qualifying offer (minimum of $3.7 million) will still be made under the present collective agreement & any filing for arbitration by Bertuzzi also has to be made under the present agreement. Any new CBA will likely recognize the previous qualifying offers of the old agreement (as they did in the past) so Bertuzzi would still be an RFA even under a new agreement.

It is also unlikely Bertuzzi, now 28, would become a UFA before age 30 even under a new agreement, should that agreement lower the present minimum age to become a UFA. Any lowering of UFA ages were phased in a year at a time in the past agreement & likely it will be similar in any new agreement. Add that to the fact that Bertuzzi's qualifying offer & any filling for aribitration falls under the present agreement & so Vancouver is likely assured of at least 1 year after this contract runs out. The earliest an arbitrated contract would run out would leave Bertuzzi at age 30 anyway.

Should Vancouver wish to trade Bertuzzi, it would be because they can't afford his salary. Many of the trade suggestions above are suggesting to send players back to Vancouver with a combined salary greater than the expected salary that would cause the Canucks to trade Bertuzzi. Obviously such trades would be unrealistic becuse of that. Add to the fact that Vancouver is a well balanced, young team with a similar well stocked farm team & it is just as unrealistic to think Vancouver would trade quality for quantity. Vancouver would likely have to place most of the above suggested lessor players on waivers just to get them to the Moose so they could play. Most would be immediately lost to other teams. The most likely trade for Bertuzzi that Vancouver would entertain would be for a single, quality younger player, one that has star potential, but hasn't reached that potential yet though still could immediately play on their top 6 forwards or top 4 D, together with a top 5 first round draft choice. The Yashin-Spezza trade is likely the closest recent example, but Bertuzzi should garner a bit more than what Yashin brought. In return, the teams that will trade for Bertuzzi will be looking at him as a power forward who can dominate now, who they don't have to suffer through the years it takes for a prospect to reach his potential & who is still young enough that Bertuzzi will still be likely playing for another 5 to 6 years minimum.

Peter Griffin 10-09-2003 09:01 AM

There are very few players in the NHL that I would trade Bertuzzi straight up for. But, the only way Bertuzzi is traded is if he prices himself out of Vancouver's price range. In that case, it would depend on how much he is asking for and how many teams could afford that. I could see Toronto being very interested in Bertuzzi as well as perhaps Montreal. That being said, there really isn't anyone from either team that interests me.

Peter Griffin 10-09-2003 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reign Nateo
If you want to think of a package, think of Tkachuk to St. Louis but more.

Handzus
Nagy
Taffe
1st

+another prospect for Bertuzzi.

I could see something like that going down. But what team could afford Bertuzzi's salary(would be pretty high assuming the Canucks wouldn't be interested at all in paying him that much) and has some good young players available? Ottawa possibly, but doubtful. Maybe Philly? Gagne and Pitkanen for Bertuzzi?

wint 10-09-2003 09:22 AM

I hate to say it, but the most reasonable offer so far in this thread has been Carter and Jessiman. Maybe the Rangers add a pick or a prospect.

If the Canucks move Bertuzzi, it will be because he is demanding a far higher salary than Burke is willing to pay (let's say $7 mil/yr). Due to the current NHL economic climate - which is sure to become even more of a buyers market as next September approaches - a single player at $7mil/yr will not bring back nearly the return many of you are predicting. That is, unless the Canucks are willing to take plenty of salary back in return. In any case, most of the value they get back would probably be in players already making millions themselves, not blue chippers like Spezza or Lehtonen.

Ironically, Bertuzzi would be more valuable to the Canucks if he has a bad year and a bad playoffs. His bargaining power would be diminished and he wouldn't be able to demand as high a salary, which would make him more retainable for the Canucks as well as more attractive to other teams.

Burke's Evil Spirit 10-09-2003 09:53 AM

The problem with comparing it to the Tkachuk deal is that everyone looks at the players as they are now and it looks like St. Louis gave up a lot. Handzus and Nagy weren't anywhere near the players they are today.

John Flyers Fan 10-09-2003 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
I could see something like that going down. But what team could afford Bertuzzi's salary(would be pretty high assuming the Canucks wouldn't be interested at all in paying him that much) and has some good young players available? Ottawa possibly, but doubtful. Maybe Philly? Gagne and Pitkanen for Bertuzzi?



Flyers would be VERY interested but there is no chance that you get Gagne & Pitkanen.

Peter Griffin 10-09-2003 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Flyers would be VERY interested but there is no chance that you get Gagne & Pitkanen.

Then Bertuzzi isn't moved.

Peter Griffin 10-09-2003 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
The problem with comparing it to the Tkachuk deal is that everyone looks at the players as they are now and it looks like St. Louis gave up a lot. Handzus and Nagy weren't anywhere near the players they are today.

Handzus scored 25 goals and 53 points the year before for the Blues, that's better then his numbers today. As for Nagy, he was a bluechip prospect at the time.


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