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-   -   How early could we make a move for Weight? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=190878)

Human Megaphone 11-14-2005 04:05 PM

How early could we make a move for Weight?
 
With St. Louis in a tailspin, it's probably only a matter of time before they start trying to move players. There seems to be a concensus on the board that Weight should be the guy we go after. Assuming this is true how soon should we make a move and what would we give back.

According to the 4th period our current salary cap hit is $36.3.
We'll use 20 games as the benchmark for salaries (because most teams haven't had so many breaks)

That means Weight's salary at 5.7 (NHLPA.com) is worth roughly 4.275 today. Is that something we should move on?

If not now, when?

Pangu 11-14-2005 04:15 PM

My vote is never. Why do we want to change a team that has 73 GF and 31 GA? Vermette seems to be doing fine as the 2nd line center.

Don Draper 11-14-2005 04:16 PM

What makes me very hesitant not to make a deal would be what Muckler plans to do with Redden and Chara. If he signs them to deals that apply to this season, then there goes our left over cap space. If he doesnt/cant do that, then the possibility for a trade makes sense. I am not sold right now that this team needs to trade for that #2 center, but injuries usually dicate that. I think we should wait for some injury concerns before we move on anyone.

Imagine the backlash in the dressing room if we traded, varada and smoke + prospect, which moves vermette down a line messing up that lines chemistry, and messing up the 3rd lines chemistry as well. Its a pretty big gamble to make a move right now when there are so many ways that the trade could backfire.

Captain_Cunney 11-14-2005 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by champben2002
My vote is never. Why do we want to change a team that has 73 GF and 31 GA? Vermette seems to be doing fine as the 2nd line center.

The keyword is fine, Weight would be doing fabulous. If we have a chance to get Dougie, it will be done, IMO. The fact of the matter is our 1-2 centres are both young and inexperienced when it comes to playoff hockey, adding an allstar centre like Weight would do nothing but help this team immensly.

Disclaimer: I'm against moving a top prospect like Eaves/Lee/Kaigordov, but if it is Bochenski, get it done.

The Mars Volchenkov 11-14-2005 04:27 PM

I think we have to wait a little bit, unless the Sens were sending a decent sized contract back the other way. We can't take on his cap hit at the moment.

I can't believe someone in another thread (Aragorn I believe) said that Weight isn't an improvement over Smolinski. That's just insane.

Just so everyone can see, Doug Weight's playoff statistics are:
69 games played, 20 goals, 35 assists, 55 points, 70 PIMS.

I really think he'd be a great addition to the team.

Pangu 11-14-2005 04:48 PM

He is a looser and a playmaker. I am not sure that we need either on our second line. He also lacks the speed of Vermette and would force Vermette back to the fourth line. I prefer to give our boys a chance rather than bringing in players that feel like they are just along for the ride.

Lonnie Loach 11-14-2005 04:52 PM

I think Weight would be a terrific addition. The Sens cannot rely upon Vermette as a second line producer if they want to take a serious run at the Cup. It's too early in his career to expect that type of production out of him. What I really like about the Weight idea is that if the unthinkable should happen and Spezza is lost to injury for any period of time Weight is fully capable of stepping up and being a first line center. I don't think you can say that about any other center on the roster, and I think that's the type of depth you need to win a Cup.

Sens4Cup 11-14-2005 04:56 PM

I think if a move is made for Weight then it should be done at the deadline, and only for draft picks, or perhaps Schubert.

The Sens don't need any addition to win the Presidents trophy, but they could use a bit of depth come playoff time and Weight would be a good rental player, but purely as a rental.

With Kai coming over next season we've got our center positions pretty solid, but could use some veteran depth for a solid playoff run.

discostu 11-14-2005 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Cunney
The keyword is fine, Weight would be doing fabulous.

Sometimes you can't increase the sum of the team by adding parts. There's no way of knowing if Weight will add to this team, or, if it will upset the balance of chemistry which has been great so far.

We have time. We should use this time to really evaluate the team. Remember, we're not putting together a fantasy team, we're talking about real-life personalities.

I'm not saying we can't improve this team, but, there's no need to hurry. We still haven't seen this team struggle yet, and that's the best time to judge where the biggest weaknesses lie.

We also don't know what type of flexibility we have in using some of this cap room that may be able to be used to get players like Redden and Chara signed to long-term contracts.

Pangu 11-14-2005 05:00 PM

That's ridiculous, 23 is hardly too young for a player to produce. Most forwards are near their prime at 23 and he was one of the best Sens in the Leafs series. He works hard, has good speed and is sound defensively.

You can't defend against all insults. If we lose one of our top players we will be in tough, no matter who it is. But, I think that Weight would create more problems than he would solve. I didn't like our excess depth last season (I mean if Spezz can't play than you are TOO deep!) and I would prefer not going that direction this year. Having a happy mentally ready team is essential for a cup, much more so than a 2nd line center. Having a 2nd line player on your 4th is terrible for having a happy team. As it is, we already have one and we do not need another.

The Mars Volchenkov 11-14-2005 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by champben2002
Most forwards are near their prime at 23 .

I'm sorry, but I don't know of any forwards who are at or near their prime at 23.

swiftwin 11-14-2005 05:06 PM

I say give Vermette a chance.

Dont forget, he set up the Fisher goal in game 6.

He deserves almost all the credit for that one. Fisher only tapped it in.

The team is winning right now, why change it?

Human Megaphone 11-14-2005 05:13 PM

I am shocked at the amount of negative opinoins about Weight. I've never got the impression he is a cancer, and he is a quality first line centreman. If I remember correctly he was leading the playoffs in scoring going into the 4th round despite St. Louis getting booted in the first.

A guy like that is who I want on our second line. Send Smoke back if we're that concerned about chemistry. Vermette will still get his chance, but it might just be later.

I am correct in saying that most people want him later? Would that change if a contender made a serious offer now?

RTWAP* 11-14-2005 05:28 PM

Based on the way the team is playing right now, I don't think we need another great centre, but it might be nice to have another veteran forward (multi-position) that could step in on just about any second line slot and perform OK. I'd be looking for someone veteran with decent speed and all-around game. Someone like a motivated Smolinski ... hmm ... nevermind.

Another D-man. We need another D-man. Yah, that's the ticket.

Rico__Persson* 11-14-2005 05:34 PM

I'm still surprised at a lot of people not seeing the difference between the regular season and post season. How many playoff choke jobs do you need to see from this team? Each year Ottawa has been dominant in the regular season. They whoop the Leafs every year between the months October to March. Then it ends. A new season begins. Don't use the two words in the same sentence.

The regular season is "Preseason Version 2.0" in my opinion. Go out have a good time, and play some fun hockey.

playoffs>>>>>regular season>preseason.

I could see fans from a different team overlook the value of the playoff play, but not this team. It is the greatest choking team in recent memory. Set up a poll...The Ottawa Senators will take top spot on a "Playoff Heimlick Manouver" Poll.


Sure Vermette is doing a good job at second line center. Its hard not to on this team. Spezza has been fabulous at line 1. But what do you think his production would be like with a defensive center drapped on his back like a trench coat? It will happen in the playoffs. You aren't going to get the production that you are seeing now. I'd say you'd be lucky to get half that. There will be shutdown guys, playing all out, shift versus shift. After 2 shifts, they will be able to tell you what Spezza ate for supper that night. He must toughen up. I don;t like how he dives all over the place when he gets bumped around. That is not going to do any good in the playoffs. Just a waste of energy having to get back up all the time. He must toughen up or he will have a tough time with the transition.

I don't feel Mr. Muckler will go into this make or break postseason with a Spezza/Vermette combo. Or even Smoliski combo. Its too risky. I say they would slightly fold with the pressure. Maybe not fold, but at least bend.

A Doug Weight type player will take the pressure off. Spezza, Weight, Vermette, Smolinski/Kelly. Thats a great center combination. Roll 'em all, bury the opposition after 20 minutes. Ask Smolinski if he will play the 4th line if that what it takes to win a Stanley Cup ring...he won't think twice about. He knows what the playoffs are all about.

And don't forget injuries. You can guarantee that after the 1st round one of the Top 6 forwards will be out. It happens, its a different level of play.

Go back, watch some playoff tape, and then realize that this team is far from a lock to dominate in the post season. Thankfully, I'm confident that the people who make these decisions understand that.

Rico__Persson* 11-14-2005 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Human Megaphone
..

I would say that as soon as the salary is small enough to be taken on. I like that the trade deadline has been moved up. It gives the player more time to adjust. It was tough for Smolinski last time. Leaving the family at home, living in a hotel for the home games, has to be tough.

Also, I agree on all your points. A lot of Sens fans over rate all the players. If they were so lucky to see Weight in the Black, Red, and Gold they would be awefully surprised and eat their words.

Doug Weight is a world class talent. I would put him in Alfredsson's category, and I hold Alf in high regards.

Pangu 11-14-2005 06:03 PM

Sorry, what has Weight won? Vermette did not choke last playoffs... he played very well, so I hardly see your point, Rico.

Nobody is saying that Weight is a cancer, the comments so far made are fairly generic for a player of Weight's calibre

23yr at or near their prime: Forsberg, Jagr, Demitra, Heatley, Thornton, Savard, Hossa, Kovalchuk (I hope!), Lecavelier, etc

Lonnie Loach 11-14-2005 06:17 PM

Weight is an excellent player and a leader. He's American but he very much enjoyed playing in Canada and I am sure he would welcome a trade to a Canadian contender. He has plenty of gas left in the tank. Not to bring back bad memories, but let's be realistic: consider that Spezza and Vermette were the 1-2 centers in Bingo who were shut down in the first round of the AHL playoffs last year. The playoffs are a completely different animal than the regular season. The path to the Cup will go through Ottawa, Tampa and Philly. Forget everyone else in the East, and ask yourself how you think a Spezza/Vermette combo compares against LeCavalier/Richards and Primeau/Forsberg over a 7 game series when the opposition will be hell bent to shut the Sens down (for that mattter, how do they stack up against Sundin/Lindros ?). I think Weight would be an excellent addition. From a payroll perspective, the Sens would have to get rid of Smoke if they want to do a deal significantly before the deadline. Vermette can be a valuable third line contributor on a team that makes a serious run at the Cup, get some much needed playoff experience and next season when Weight goes to another team as an unrestricted FA he can capably fit into the second line role.

Pangu 11-14-2005 06:27 PM

Anybody can stop Spezza/Vermette. Neither of them are great goal scorers, and Spezza is no speed demon. I would say the same about Weight, who during this conversation has not improved his winning record. For that matter, I think that we could easily stop any of the players that you listed. The trick is to do it while also stopping their wingers. When Vermette and Spezza are not the biggest dangers on their line, they are very good at complementing their linemates' talents. As I said before, I Havlat and Schaefer are good playmakers, that do not need a third.

Also, leadership is not something that you can trade for. You as newbie can't come in and start giving orders... especially to the best team in the leugue. At best Weight will be quite. At worst, he will play like Smoke... as it is all of the Sens are hard workers, why mess with that?

Captain_Cunney 11-14-2005 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonnie Loach
Weight is an excellent player and a leader. He's American but he very much enjoyed playing in Canada and I am sure he would welcome a trade to a Canadian contender. He has plenty of gas left in the tank. Not to bring back bad memories, but let's be realistic: consider that Spezza and Vermette were the 1-2 centers in Bingo who were shut down in the first round of the AHL playoffs last year. The playoffs are a completely different animal than the regular season. The path to the Cup will go through Ottawa, Tampa and Philly. Forget everyone else in the East, and ask yourself how you think a Spezza/Vermette combo compares against LeCavalier/Richards and Primeau/Forsberg over a 7 game series when the opposition will be hell bent to shut the Sens down (for that mattter, how do they stack up against Sundin/Lindros ?). I think Weight would be an excellent addition. From a payroll perspective, the Sens would have to get rid of Smoke if they want to do a deal significantly before the deadline. Vermette can be a valuable third line contributor on a team that makes a serious run at the Cup, get some much needed playoff experience and next season when Weight goes to another team as an unrestricted FA he can capably fit into the second line role.

And we have a winner!

Captain_Cunney 11-14-2005 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by champben2002
Anybody can stop Spezza/Vermette. Neither of them are great goal scorers, and Spezza is no speed demon. I would say the same about Weight, who during this conversation has not improved his winning record. For that matter, I think that we could easily stop any of the players that you listed. The trick is to do it while also stopping their wingers. When Vermette and Spezza are not the biggest dangers on their line, they are very good at complementing their linemates' talents. As I said before, I Havlat and Schaefer are good playmakers, that do not need a third.

Also, leadership is not something that you can trade for. You as newbie can't come in and start giving orders... especially to the best team in the leugue. At best Weight will be quite. At worst, he will play like Smoke... as it is all of the Sens are hard workers, why mess with that?

1) While he is no speed demon, he is a hell of a lot speedier than the Spezz.

2) St. Louis's failures are not at all Weight's fault.

3) It sure is, he won't be coming in and taking the reigns from Alf, but his vet. presence would definately be helpful. An established player like Weight commands respect as soon as he walks into a room, he would definately be one of this teams leaders. I don't think anyone in their right mind thinks he is going to come in and "start giving orders", more like suggestions from a Vet. who has been through playoff wars before.

4) You went way overboard here, anyone who has ever watched Doug Weight play would know that even on his worst day he is slightly better than Smoke, and I'm a Smoke fan.

I understand that you aren't all for bringing in Doug Weight, but some of your comments make me think you are either the biggest Homer in the world, or you haven't actually watched Mr. Weight play before. The guy was the heart and soul of those upset special Oilers teams (along with Cujo). Besides, it is not like we'd be dealing Vermette for Weight. Neil could slide down to the 4th line and Smoke could shuffle to the wing, resulting in Vermette still having a very important 3rd line role with Fish/Smoke.

Jennifer 19 11-14-2005 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonnie Loach
Weight is an excellent player and a leader. He's American but he very much enjoyed playing in Canada and I am sure he would welcome a trade to a Canadian contender. He has plenty of gas left in the tank. Not to bring back bad memories, but let's be realistic: consider that Spezza and Vermette were the 1-2 centers in Bingo who were shut down in the first round of the AHL playoffs last year. The playoffs are a completely different animal than the regular season. The path to the Cup will go through Ottawa, Tampa and Philly. Forget everyone else in the East, and ask yourself how you think a Spezza/Vermette combo compares against LeCavalier/Richards and Primeau/Forsberg over a 7 game series when the opposition will be hell bent to shut the Sens down (for that mattter, how do they stack up against Sundin/Lindros ?). I think Weight would be an excellent addition. From a payroll perspective, the Sens would have to get rid of Smoke if they want to do a deal significantly before the deadline. Vermette can be a valuable third line contributor on a team that makes a serious run at the Cup, get some much needed playoff experience and next season when Weight goes to another team as an unrestricted FA he can capably fit into the second line role.

Agreed. As much as I like Vermette, I don't want to head into the playoffs with him as our #2 centre. He's not ready for that yet, and I would feel much more comfortable with a capable veteran down the middle, whether or not that would be Weight remains to be seen. Can anyone say they feel 100% confident with the centres that we have now? I know we're dominating at the moment, and hell we may be good enough to go all the way without a trade, but that's not a risk I'm willing to bet on. I'm sure Mucks knows this and will make an upgrade at centre. I like Smolinski, I think he's a good, versatile player, but I'm not sold that he'll cut it as a #2 either. I really do want a better 1-2 punch down the middle, so I'm hoping for that #2 (gritty/scoring) centre to compliment Spezza. In my eyes it's our largest weakness.

Having said all that, it's way too early to start making moves now. We should evaluate our needs closer to the deadline, we'd have a much better idea what tweaking is needed then. A lot could change.

Volchenkov 11-14-2005 07:44 PM

I'm pretty sure, due to the salary cap, if Weight comes to Ottawa, Smolinski's contract would be going the other way.

Captain_Cunney 11-14-2005 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volchenkov
I'm pretty sure, due to the salary cap, if Weight comes to Ottawa, Smolinski's contract would be going the other way.

I think we have cap room as we speak. If we waited longer into the season, as Doug's contract went down, I think we would be able to squeeze him in without a problem.

"On trade deadline day, there will be 40 days left in the season. Thus, a team bringing aboard a new player will only have to account for 40/196th of his salary, or roughly 20%, against the cap."
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/hocke...deadline_x.htm

By my math that is (Weight's contract)$5,700,000.00 x 40/196 = $1,163,265.31

Our current cap number is $36,370,594.00, so we have almost 3 mil as we speak and I don't think it is going anywhere.
http://www.thefourthperiod.com/Ottawa.html

But I get your point, I think we could get away with making them take Varada - he deserves more ice than he is getting here anyways.

Lonnie Loach 11-14-2005 07:57 PM

I am sure Muckler and Murray are well aware of the need for a veteran second line center. The team is reserving cap room to have the flexibility to make a late year meaningful acquisition - that's why Muckler wants to go with the league minimum roster, and why he wanted to demote Schubert at the beginning of the season. The Sens are really blessed with an excellent management team. Murray, as a GM, made some really smart trades to position Anaheim for a post season run and with him and Muckler running the show I have complete faith that they'll address the issue. This post is not intended to detract from Vermette. I'm a huge Vermette fan and think he's an excellent young player. I just don't think it's prudent to count on him to produce in the playoffs at this stage of his career.


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