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-   -   Do you agree that Mike Bossy could have been the 2nd or 3rd best scorer of all time? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=192656)

LastChancePrice 11-19-2005 02:44 PM

Do you agree that Mike Bossy could have been the 2nd or 3rd best scorer of all time?
 
This guy only play 10 seasons in the NHL, but imo, if he was able to play 20+, he was set to be the 2nd best scorer of all time, behind gretzky or behind lemieux( if lemieux was able to stay healthy).Imagine if Bossy was able to stay healthy for 10 + seasons more...



Gretzky:1487 games/ 2857 points.ratio of 2 points per game
Bossy:752 games / 1126 points. thats a ratio of 1.5 points per game.
Messier:1756 games / 1887 points a ratio of about 1.1 points per game
Lemieux, also was amazing:908 games /1720 points 1.9 points per game
Howe: 1767 games/ 1850 points 1.04 ppg
Dionne:1348 games 1771 points 1.3 ppg
Yzerman :1466 games/ 1727 points 1.17 ppg
Esposito :1282 games/ 1590 points 1.24 ppg


All the great players like Lafleur,Sakic,Hull,Oates,Francis,Coffey,Jagr, all have PPG ratio of about 1.1 to 1.2 points per games.None are close to the production of Bossy.

Discuss :D

Behn Wilson 11-19-2005 02:51 PM

Bossy was one of the greatest pure goal scorers, no doubt. He played on one of my two (non Blackhawk) all time favorite lines, the Lafleer line being the other.

See if you can calculate the GPG for those other scorers for the first ten seasons or however many Bossy played and compare them to Bossy's. That would be a better comparison.

When you play till your 40 your skills and stats like PPG decrease so Bossy didnt hang on past his prime and his stats in turn are a bit higher.

Im biased of course, but the best (or at least most exciting) pure goal scorer I ever saw was Bobbby Hull.

EDIT: I thought you meant goals, not points. I wasnt paying attention. I always thought of Bossy more as a pure goal scorer than point producer.

Leaf Lander 11-19-2005 03:08 PM

bossy didnthave the pshycial endurance that the other greats had because he was slight and had a bad back maybe gentic or it was because because of the game
He probably would had been top 3 in a perfect world and he was my goal scoring idol:)

Big Phil 11-19-2005 03:31 PM

A far as I'm concerned in order for pure goal scorers it goes Lemieux, Bossy and then Bobby Hull and Bure

yeah Bossy was a gem

Behn Wilson 11-19-2005 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Phil
A far as I'm concerned in order for pure goal scorers it goes Lemieux, Bossy and then Bobby Hull and Bure

yeah Bossy was a gem

Cant argue with that top three though I might put the great one ahead of Bure.

VanIslander 11-19-2005 03:36 PM

Of course, some could have argued he was third among forwards. Gretz and Mario played the game at another level. So has Orr on defense and some in net.

But Bossy could have been on everyone's lips as a Top 10 best player of all time.

Though I think the case could still be made that he wasn't well rounded enough to warrant higher than a Top-15 consideration even if he had a twenty year career. Howe's average is obscured by his overly long career. What is Howe's average over the first twenty years of his career? And what if Dionne had played for the Habs or Bruins or Flyers rather than the often hapless Kings?

I think then, just among forwards, Bossy could IDEALLY have been fifth among forwards in terms of career production (demonstrated talent): 1. Gretzky 1A Lemieux 3. Dionne 4. Howe 5. Bossy.

Hockey Outsider 11-19-2005 03:37 PM

I don't think Bossy would have been one of the top three scorers of all time, even if he did play a lot longer. (Edit: he probably would have become one of the top three goal-scorers, he had a shot at cracking 800). His PPG ratio was incredible, but it was unsustainable. PPG always drops with age, and the NHL became lower-scoring after he left, so those two factors would have decreased his PPG had he played longer.

Goals per game, era-adjusted, first ten years
1 Mario Lemieux 535 403 0.75
2 Pavel Bure 557 393 0.71
3 Wayne Gretzky 712 494 0.69
4 Brett Hull 693 477 0.69
5 Mike Bossy 771 487 0.63
6 Jaromir Jagr 677 411 0.61
7 Eric Lindros 609 365 0.60
8 Teemu Selanne 666 395 0.59
9 Charlie Conacher 566 329 0.58
10 Bobby Hull 708 408 0.58

During the first ten years, Bossy was 5th in goals per game, but only Gretzky had scored more goals (and it was very close).

Points per game, era-adjusted, first ten years
1 Wayne Gretzky 712 1,386 1.95
2 Mario Lemieux 535 952 1.78
3 Jaromir Jagr 677 979 1.45
4 Peter Forsberg 533 762 1.43
5 Bobby Orr 602 807 1.34
6 Eric Lindros 609 816 1.34
7 Howie Morenz 708 887 1.25
8 Frank Boucher 731 915 1.25
9 Teemu Selanne 666 824 1.24
10 Phil Esposito 729 898 1.23
11 Guy Lafleur 675 829 1.23
12 Pavel Bure 557 676 1.21
13 Paul Kariya 610 739 1.21
14 Mike Bossy 771 928 1.20
15 Joe Sakic 684 824 1.20
16 Jean Beliveau 590 710 1.20
17 Gordie Howe 704 835 1.19
18 Steve Yzerman 690 819 1.19
19 Marcel Dionne 722 857 1.19
20 Jari Kurri 696 799 1.15

The gap between Gretzky and Lemieux, and everyone else, is staggering. The only players with more points after their first ten years were Gretzky, Lemieux and Jagr.

Bring Back Bucky 11-19-2005 03:37 PM

With the puck on his stick in the slot, I'd pick Bossy over anyone else I have seen.

Ogopogo* 11-19-2005 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHfan4ever
This guy only play 10 seasons in the NHL, but imo, if he was able to play 20+, he was set to be the 2nd best scorer of all time, behind gretzky or behind lemieux( if lemieux was able to stay healthy).Imagine if Bossy was able to stay healthy for 10 + seasons more...



Gretzky:1487 games/ 2857 points.ratio of 2 points per game
Bossy:752 games / 1126 points. thats a ratio of 1.5 points per game.
Messier:1756 games / 1887 points a ratio of about 1.1 points per game
Lemieux, also was amazing:908 games /1720 points 1.9 points per game
Howe: 1767 games/ 1850 points 1.04 ppg
Dionne:1348 games 1771 points 1.3 ppg
Yzerman :1466 games/ 1727 points 1.17 ppg
Esposito :1282 games/ 1590 points 1.24 ppg


All the great players like Lafleur,Sakic,Hull,Oates,Francis,Coffey,Jagr, all have PPG ratio of about 1.1 to 1.2 points per games.None are close to the production of Bossy.

Discuss :D

Depends on your definition of greatness. You have to throw out raw point totals and points/goals per game (See hockey outsider's post for details on adjusted goals & points). Bossy played his entire career during the most offensive era of all time.

Bossy is currently the 6th greatest goal scorer (my system) of all time and the 19th greatest point scorer of all time. Given a full career, I believe Bossy could have been the 4th greatest goal scorer behind only Howe, Bobby Hull and Richard and he could have made it to #12 on the greatest point scorer list.

VanIslander 11-19-2005 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bring Back Bucky
With the puck on his stick in the slot, I'd pick Bossy over anyone else I have seen.

Only for a quick one timer.

I'd still prefer Mario or Gretz in that position. Bossy would immediately take a heavy shot. The two gods would have carried the puck further and undressed the goaltender.

Behn Wilson 11-19-2005 03:43 PM

Hockey Outsider, Great job, thanks a lot. A very fun read there.

chooch* 11-19-2005 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider
I don't think Bossy would have been one of the top three scorers of all time, even if he did play a lot longer. (Edit: he probably would have become one of the top three goal-scorers, he had a shot at cracking 800). His PPG ratio was incredible, but it was unsustainable. PPG always drops with age, and the NHL became lower-scoring after he left, so those two factors would have decreased his PPG had he played longer.

Goals per game, era-adjusted, first ten years
1 Mario Lemieux 535 403 0.75
2 Pavel Bure 557 393 0.71
3 Wayne Gretzky 712 494 0.69
4 Brett Hull 693 477 0.69
5 Mike Bossy 771 487 0.63
6 Jaromir Jagr 677 411 0.61
7 Eric Lindros 609 365 0.60
8 Teemu Selanne 666 395 0.59
9 Charlie Conacher 566 329 0.58
10 Bobby Hull 708 408 0.58

During the first ten years, Bossy was 5th in goals per game, but only Gretzky had scored more goals (and it was very close).

Points per game, era-adjusted, first ten years
1 Wayne Gretzky 712 1,386 1.95
2 Mario Lemieux 535 952 1.78
3 Jaromir Jagr 677 979 1.45
4 Peter Forsberg 533 762 1.43
5 Bobby Orr 602 807 1.34
6 Eric Lindros 609 816 1.34
7 Howie Morenz 708 887 1.25
8 Frank Boucher 731 915 1.25
9 Teemu Selanne 666 824 1.24
10 Phil Esposito 729 898 1.23
11 Guy Lafleur 675 829 1.23
12 Pavel Bure 557 676 1.21
13 Paul Kariya 610 739 1.21
14 Mike Bossy 771 928 1.20
15 Joe Sakic 684 824 1.20
16 Jean Beliveau 590 710 1.20
17 Gordie Howe 704 835 1.19
18 Steve Yzerman 690 819 1.19
19 Marcel Dionne 722 857 1.19
20 Jari Kurri 696 799 1.15

The gap between Gretzky and Lemieux, and everyone else, is staggering. The only players with more points after their first ten years were Gretzky, Lemieux and Jagr.

Very interesting. I have to ask why there are 8 active players in the top 20 all time era adjusted points list and 12 who played the bulk of their careers after 1980.

What was going on on the 40's (0) 50's and 60's (3)?

The goals scorers list has 6 or 7 of the top 8 players being from the 1990's.

What do you think HO?

Hockey Outsider 11-19-2005 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chooch
Very interesting. I have to ask why there are 8 active players in the top 20 all time era adjusted points list and 12 who played the bulk of their careers after 1980.

What was going on on the 40's (0) 50's and 60's (3)?

The goals scorers list has 6 or 7 of the top 8 players being from the 1990's.

What do you think HO?

Good point about the players from the 40's. For whatever reason, their numbers always come out lower than they should. The same is true if you use Total Hockey's adjusted scoring, and same with Daryl Shilling's. I think the reason for this is because during the 40's, the rosters were still pretty small, but the top lines got less and less ice time. So the computer isn't making an adjustment for roster size, but the stars get less ice time and therefore score less. I'm not sure how to account for this, but a good starting point would be to estimate how much ice time a first-line player gets.

As for the number of active players... it seems like a lot, but I think it makes sense. Players like Forsberg, Selanne, Kariya, etc., who scored 90-110 points in a dead-puck era, or players like Bure and Sakic who score 50-60 goals, would have scored far more in any other era. The other point to consider about players from the 50's 60's is that they got around 30 minutes of ice time per game, modern stars only get around 20-25 (at best). That alone is a big factor to take into account.

Ogopogo* 11-19-2005 06:08 PM

Here are the 25 greatest NHL goal scorers using my system. Outsider and I share many of the same concepts and our results are reasonably close. With my system, the roster sizes are accounted for during the 40s and 50s.


1 Gordie Howe 92.58
2 Bobby Hull 83
3 Maurice Richard 76
4 Phil Esposito 56.5
5 Wayne Gretzky 53
6 Mike Bossy 45
7 Cy Denneny 44
8 Cecil Dye 40.5
9 Nels Stewart 39
10 Mario Lemieux 38
11 Howie Morenz 37
12 Jean Beliveau 36.83
13 Charlie Conacher 36.5
14 Brett Hull 34
15 Roy Conacher 33.5
16 Bill Cook 33
Frank Mahovlich 33
18 Ted Lindsay 31.75
19 Pavel Bure 30.5
Stan Mikita 30.5
21 Guy Lafleur 30.33
22 Bernie Geoffrion 28.5
23 Marcel Dionne 27
Jaromir Jagr 27
25 Teemu Selanne 26

V-2 Schneider 11-19-2005 09:13 PM

Lemieux could shoot from anywhere and score.Bossy could get it off his stick faster than anyone,with the exception of Steve Shutt.

In today's era, Bondra had that same talent.

reckoning 11-19-2005 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider
I don't think Bossy would have been one of the top three scorers of all time, even if he did play a lot longer. (Edit: he probably would have become one of the top three goal-scorers, he had a shot at cracking 800). His PPG ratio was incredible, but it was unsustainable. PPG always drops with age, and the NHL became lower-scoring after he left, so those two factors would have decreased his PPG had he played longer.

Goals per game, era-adjusted, first ten years
1 Mario Lemieux 535 403 0.75
2 Pavel Bure 557 393 0.71
3 Wayne Gretzky 712 494 0.69
4 Brett Hull 693 477 0.69
5 Mike Bossy 771 487 0.63
6 Jaromir Jagr 677 411 0.61
7 Eric Lindros 609 365 0.60
8 Teemu Selanne 666 395 0.59
9 Charlie Conacher 566 329 0.58
10 Bobby Hull 708 408 0.58


Points per game, era-adjusted, first ten years
1 Wayne Gretzky 712 1,386 1.95
2 Mario Lemieux 535 952 1.78
3 Jaromir Jagr 677 979 1.45
4 Peter Forsberg 533 762 1.43
5 Bobby Orr 602 807 1.34
6 Eric Lindros 609 816 1.34
7 Howie Morenz 708 887 1.25
8 Frank Boucher 731 915 1.25
9 Teemu Selanne 666 824 1.24
10 Phil Esposito 729 898 1.23
11 Guy Lafleur 675 829 1.23
12 Pavel Bure 557 676 1.21
13 Paul Kariya 610 739 1.21
14 Mike Bossy 771 928 1.20
15 Joe Sakic 684 824 1.20
16 Jean Beliveau 590 710 1.20
17 Gordie Howe 704 835 1.19
18 Steve Yzerman 690 819 1.19
19 Marcel Dionne 722 857 1.19
20 Jari Kurri 696 799 1.15

I`ve always been a firm believer that how good Eric Lindros was before the concussions has been unfairly erased from hockey history, but even I`m surprised at how high he ranks on those two lists.

LastChancePrice 11-19-2005 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider
I don't think Bossy would have been one of the top three scorers of all time, even if he did play a lot longer. (Edit: he probably would have become one of the top three goal-scorers, he had a shot at cracking 800). His PPG ratio was incredible, but it was unsustainable. PPG always drops with age, and the NHL became lower-scoring after he left, so those two factors would have decreased his PPG had he played longer.

Goals per game, era-adjusted, first ten years
1 Mario Lemieux 535 403 0.75
2 Pavel Bure 557 393 0.71
3 Wayne Gretzky 712 494 0.69
4 Brett Hull 693 477 0.69
5 Mike Bossy 771 487 0.63
6 Jaromir Jagr 677 411 0.61
7 Eric Lindros 609 365 0.60
8 Teemu Selanne 666 395 0.59
9 Charlie Conacher 566 329 0.58
10 Bobby Hull 708 408 0.58

During the first ten years, Bossy was 5th in goals per game, but only Gretzky had scored more goals (and it was very close).

Points per game, era-adjusted, first ten years
1 Wayne Gretzky 712 1,386 1.95
2 Mario Lemieux 535 952 1.78
3 Jaromir Jagr 677 979 1.45
4 Peter Forsberg 533 762 1.43
5 Bobby Orr 602 807 1.34
6 Eric Lindros 609 816 1.34
7 Howie Morenz 708 887 1.25
8 Frank Boucher 731 915 1.25
9 Teemu Selanne 666 824 1.24
10 Phil Esposito 729 898 1.23
11 Guy Lafleur 675 829 1.23
12 Pavel Bure 557 676 1.21
13 Paul Kariya 610 739 1.21
14 Mike Bossy 771 928 1.20
15 Joe Sakic 684 824 1.20
16 Jean Beliveau 590 710 1.20
17 Gordie Howe 704 835 1.19
18 Steve Yzerman 690 819 1.19
19 Marcel Dionne 722 857 1.19
20 Jari Kurri 696 799 1.15

The gap between Gretzky and Lemieux, and everyone else, is staggering. The only players with more points after their first ten years were Gretzky, Lemieux and Jagr.


This is shocking to see Lindros on the 6th spot.

jiggs 10 11-19-2005 11:16 PM

Had Bossy had the AVERAGE career (15 years) of those above him, he should have been the 2nd highest goal-scorer of all-time, and maybe 4th highest scorer in NHL history. 5 more years of 58 goals a year? Add that to his 573 and you get 863 goals. Add to that his average of 55 assists a year and you get 828 assists, for a total of 1,691 total pointsin 1,152 games. Pretty darn good, if you ask me!

Transported Upstater 11-20-2005 01:00 AM

For RW's in the offensive zone, it doesn't get any better to me than Mike Bossy and Maurice Richard.

I am unfortunately too young to have seen either of these two in excess (saw some late-career Bossy, but I was probably busy picking my nose, as I was somewhere around 7 when he retired), but everything I have seen electronically since then...unbelieveable hands. I'd never seen a release like that before.

Masao 11-20-2005 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Here are the 25 greatest NHL goal scorers using my system. Outsider and I share many of the same concepts and our results are reasonably close. With my system, the roster sizes are accounted for during the 40s and 50s.


1 Gordie Howe 92.58
2 Bobby Hull 83
3 Maurice Richard 76
4 Phil Esposito 56.5
5 Wayne Gretzky 53
6 Mike Bossy 45
7 Cy Denneny 44
8 Cecil Dye 40.5
9 Nels Stewart 39
10 Mario Lemieux 38
11 Howie Morenz 37
12 Jean Beliveau 36.83
13 Charlie Conacher 36.5
14 Brett Hull 34
15 Roy Conacher 33.5
16 Bill Cook 33
Frank Mahovlich 33
18 Ted Lindsay 31.75
19 Pavel Bure 30.5
Stan Mikita 30.5
21 Guy Lafleur 30.33
22 Bernie Geoffrion 28.5
23 Marcel Dionne 27
Jaromir Jagr 27
25 Teemu Selanne 26


Mario Lemieux is the 10th best goalscorer of all time, Pavel Bure 19th... :rolleyes:

Ogopogo* 11-20-2005 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masao Kishin
Mario Lemieux is the 10th best goalscorer of all time, Pavel Bure 19th... :rolleyes:

Do some research instead of trying to rely on your memories of each player. The facts don't lie. When analyzed properly, this is where they belong in terms of greatest goal scores of all time.

Most people are too lazy to really analyze things.

LastChancePrice 11-20-2005 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Here are the 25 greatest NHL goal scorers using my system. Outsider and I share many of the same concepts and our results are reasonably close. With my system, the roster sizes are accounted for during the 40s and 50s.


1 Gordie Howe 92.58
2 Bobby Hull 83
3 Maurice Richard 76
4 Phil Esposito 56.5
5 Wayne Gretzky 53
6 Mike Bossy 45
7 Cy Denneny 44
8 Cecil Dye 40.5
9 Nels Stewart 39
10 Mario Lemieux 38
11 Howie Morenz 37
12 Jean Beliveau 36.83
13 Charlie Conacher 36.5
14 Brett Hull 34
15 Roy Conacher 33.5
16 Bill Cook 33
Frank Mahovlich 33
18 Ted Lindsay 31.75
19 Pavel Bure 30.5
Stan Mikita 30.5
21 Guy Lafleur 30.33
22 Bernie Geoffrion 28.5
23 Marcel Dionne 27
Jaromir Jagr 27
25 Teemu Selanne 26


How do you calculate this system?Im curious

Masao 11-20-2005 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Do some research instead of trying to rely on your memories of each player. The facts don't lie. When analyzed properly, this is where they belong in terms of greatest goal scores of all time.

Most people are too lazy to really analyze things.

That's exactly the problem with your list.

arrbez 11-20-2005 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jiggs 10
Had Bossy had the AVERAGE career (15 years) of those above him, he should have been the 2nd highest goal-scorer of all-time, and maybe 4th highest scorer in NHL history. 5 more years of 58 goals a year? Add that to his 573 and you get 863 goals. Add to that his average of 55 assists a year and you get 828 assists, for a total of 1,691 total pointsin 1,152 games. Pretty darn good, if you ask me!

Well...what are the odds he would still be putting up 58 goals at the age of 35 in the lower-scoring 90's? Bossy was 30 when he retired, and I think you'd have to account for a bit of a dip in stats

Masao 11-20-2005 01:09 PM

Stats aren't everything. People pay too much attention to stats. I'm pretty sure players like Bob Gainey or Craig Ramsay would have gotten a lot more points if they concentrated solely on offense without making all the defensive efforts they did.

Then, there's the problem of the quality of linemates, the opponents faced (a team playing in a weak division can change a lot of things), games missed because of an injury, etc, etc... there are just too many factors to consider to rate two players against each other on numbers alone.

A game is played on the ice, not on paper.


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