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-   -   Does Philly need to trade? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=195183)

Blue Brigade 11-27-2005 06:07 PM

Does Philly need to trade?
 
With the future of Keith Primeau lying in limbo due to a possible career ending concussion are the Flyers still a strong enough team to challenge for the cup? Or is Bob Clark already surveying the NHL landscape for a replacement? Who might he trade for and give up doing so? Love him or lynch him he always manages to pull off a trade that looks like it came from these very pages. :amazed:
Leaving the other 28 GM's :banghead: and looking like :dunce: .

John Flyers Fan 11-27-2005 06:14 PM

Latest reports regarding Primeau is that he's improving daily and is expected back sometime before Christmas.

If Primeau did end up being done for the season, the Flyers would need to make a deal for a defensive center, that's very good of face-offs.

jb** 11-27-2005 06:21 PM

he said the other day he isn't even thinking about retiring. If he did that would free up over 4mm in salary. He will come back and if gets hurt again well than all bets are off. While it wouldn't be a major deal the Flyers would love to find a better 6th dman as Therian ans Seidenberg just are not cutting it at the moment. even witht he cap like you said it wouldn't surprise me int he least when Clarek trades for an impact player. Unfortunately it probably won't be Loungo.

Blue Brigade 11-27-2005 06:25 PM

That is what I read as well but I came across an article in one of today’s papers stating that the last few times Keith has skated he suffers from "crazy eyes" causing the similar symptoms as motion sickness. Also taking into consideration that it took about 15 month for him to recover from the last one he suffered. :dunno:

Patty Ice 11-27-2005 06:30 PM

Nabokov + for Pitkanen? Not likely but I love to dream.

Blue Brigade 11-27-2005 06:33 PM

Keith Primeau $3,420,000.00 this year.
With the right trade(s) he might be able to land decent center and 6th defenseman. But goalie is probably out of the question.

John Flyers Fan 11-27-2005 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patty Ice
Nabokov + for Pitkanen? Not likely but I love to dream.

There would be less than 10 players in the NHL that I'd deal Pitkanen straight up for. Nabokov isn't close to being one of them

nashnaidoo 11-27-2005 06:40 PM

Can't Richards, Carter and Handzus all play center? Seems like Philly is stacked and center and, despite the chemistry between Richards and Handzus, would be able to split them up and have them center different lines.

John Flyers Fan 11-27-2005 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nashnaidoo
Can't Richards, Carter and Handzus all play center? Seems like Philly is stacked and center and, despite the chemistry between Richards and Handzus, would be able to split them up and have them center different lines.

Yes, they can all play center, but losing Primeau is still a big loss, no matter how much depth we have at center.

stanley 11-27-2005 06:45 PM

If I were Clarke, Pitkanen would be the very last player in the organization I would consider trading. He's only 22 and already looks like he's going to be something really special. Heck, he's already that, and at the organization's thinnest position.

I believe their goaltending is just fine. I think that at present, Nabokov is better than Esche or Niittymaki, but I don't think by that much. Certainly not by enough to warrant considering a trade of their best young player. Esche led them all the way to Game 7 of the Conference Finals last year, and while he's not looked consistently sharp this season, I don't think that there's reason to worry.

Well, if you read the Flyer board, you'd think it was time to raise the white flag, but people like to worry, more so in Philly than most places. I think that the organization like their goaltending, especially at the price they're paying for it (i.e., less than $2M between them both).

Claypool* 11-27-2005 06:49 PM

The Flyers always make trades. They'll make their annual goaltending upgrade then get knocked out of the playoffs.

jb** 11-27-2005 06:53 PM

we can nip it in the bud now...Pitkannen isn't going anywhere....with Kappanen now back hopefully he can regain his scoring touch which will help a lot and would be one less thing they need to add. Don't see anything happening the rest of this year. Someone posted somewhere the Flyers were looking for a puck moving d man(who isn't) but didn't mention any names. Any thoughts who it could be?

Fryer 11-27-2005 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stanley
If I were Clarke, Pitkanen would be the very last player in the organization I would consider trading. He's only 22 and already looks like he's going to be something really special. Heck, he's already that, and at the organization's thinnest position.

I believe their goaltending is just fine. I think that at present, Nabokov is better than Esche or Niittymaki, but I don't think by that much. Certainly not by enough to warrant considering a trade of their best young player. Esche led them all the way to Game 7 of the Conference Finals last year, and while he's not looked consistently sharp this season, I don't think that there's reason to worry.

Well, if you read the Flyer board, you'd think it was time to raise the white flag, but people like to worry, more so in Philly than most places. I think that the organization like their goaltending, especially at the price they're paying for it (i.e., less than $2M between them both).

I would be very surprised if Pitkanen will not win Norris tropheys in bunches (like Lidstrom did) in the next 5-6 years. Only an idiot would trade a player like that. Even Clarke is not that stupid.

Gags1288 11-27-2005 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
There would be less than 10 players in the NHL that I'd deal Pitkanen straight up for. Nabokov isn't close to being one of them

I'd take it one step further and say under 3 players in the NHL i'd trade him staight up for when factoring age, salary, upside, and current level of play.

I think if Primeau is indeed out for the season, they'd probably need to acquire a top 6 winger and go with something like this.

Gagne-Forsberg-Knuble
Kapanen-Carter-top 6 guy
Handzus-Richards-Stevenson
Sim-Sharp-Radivojevic

They might also need a faceoff guy who they could play at 4th line center. I think the 3rd line could do the job in a shutdown role and maybe allow Handzus to take draws if Richards doesn't improve (which I expect he will as the season progresses).


The Flyers also need a defenseman to round out their top 6 and play with Johnsson as Therien is simply attrocious and Seidenberg is quite injury prone.

Pitkanen-Rathje
Johnsson-trade
Hatcher-Desjardins

And I think the Flyers will be fine in net.

Bruins4Ever 11-27-2005 08:00 PM

So who was it that hit Primeau to give him this massive injury?

Brad* 11-27-2005 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Brigade
That is what I read as well but I came across an article in one of today’s papers stating that the last few times Keith has skated he suffers from "crazy eyes" causing the similar symptoms as motion sickness. Also taking into consideration that it took about 15 month for him to recover from the last one he suffered. :dunno:

If you believe what's coming out of Philadelphia, Primeau will eventually be back. Assuming that is true, then the Flyers would have no need to acquire another center.

If it turns out that Primeau will not return this season, then yes, I think the Flyers would be in the market for a checking line center to fill the gap that Primeau left behind. Granted, Handzus, Carter, and Richards are all fine center man, but of the three, Handzus and Richards are important parts of the scoring lines, and Carter is nowhere near the defensive player that Primeau was. Eventually he too will be on a scoring line.

At this point, we're still only a 1/4 of the way through the season and the Flyers are doing fine. They're a bit inconsistent, but they've had a rash of injury troubles which has caused all sorts of problems. If the team could get healthy for a bit and get some chemistry going, with some consistent Goaltending, I think they'd be pretty good. There are some areas where the Flyers will definitely be targeting IMO before the deadline, but not yet. They need more games in order to see if those problem areas are real or just temporary struggles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patty Ice
Nabokov + for Pitkanen? Not likely but I love to dream.

It would take a lot. Pitkanen is definitely the Flyers best defenseman, and without him, I think the entire D corps would go in the toilet. He and Rathje make up the best pairing the Flyers have, and the only one that is consistently good. Johnsson is a very good defenseman, and Desjardins has been playing well, but they're more inconsistent and prone to screwing up then Pitkanen. Hatcher has been good he last few games, but he struggles with not being able to manhandle forwards. Therien is just crap.

With Pitkanen's skating ability and good positioning, he can do things that the other Flyers' defenseman can't. He can skate with any forward, will not get burnt by speed, and won't get beat one on one. IMO, he has the best defensive skills of any Flyers defenseman. Offensively, he's obviously the best. As I said, if he were to be dealt, the Flyers defense would be in trouble. From San Jose's side, they'd have to include one of their big defenseman, and I don't think they'd want to do that either. At 22 years old, Pitkanen is only going to get better, and as JFF alluded to, there are very few players I'd trade him for straight up. It would take a big overpayment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stanley
I believe their goaltending is just fine. I think that at present, Nabokov is better than Esche or Niittymaki, but I don't think by that much. Certainly not by enough to warrant considering a trade of their best young player. Esche led them all the way to Game 7 of the Conference Finals last year, and while he's not looked consistently sharp this season, I don't think that there's reason to worry.

I disagree. I am not really comfortable with either Esche or Niittymaki as this team's number one goaltender right now.

Niittymaki is just not ready. I still believe he has a ton of talent and will develop into a very strong starting goaltender in the NHL, but he's not there yet. We have to remember that he's still a rookie and he still has a long way to go before he develops fully. He's just not ready for a number one job.

To put it bluntly, I just don't believe Esche is good enough. In my estimation, he's an average starting goaltender in the NHL. In today's game, with the parity of the league and how tight playoff battles are, I don't think you can win with a goaltender who is just "average." At least in the Flyers case, their team defense does not appear to be good enough to make up for Esche's blunders.

Last season, the Flyers could cover up some of Esche's mistakes with a heavy defensive system, and just collapsing down low in front of the net with their defenseman. They could simply cross check any opposing forwards out of the way. With the new rules, they can't legally do that anymore; the forwards have a much easier time going and picking up his big time rebounds. Esche's weaknesses have become more apparent. At the 1/4 mark, I'm starting to think that Esche wasn't in a "slump," but rather we need to realize that this is what we're going to get. IMO, it's not enough.

If Esche's play hasn't picked up a lot by the deadline, I'd be completely in favor of looking elsewhere for a goaltender. I would hope Clarke would too.

Liquidrage* 11-27-2005 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruins4Ever
So who was it that hit Primeau to give him this massive injury?

Perezhogin

But really, if a hit like that will do this to someone, it was just a matter of time. Even if KP does come back, he'll get hit again at some point and the symptoms will come back.

Trottier 11-27-2005 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Latest reports regarding Primeau is that he's improving daily and is expected back sometime before Christmas.

If Primeau did end up being done for the season, the Flyers would need to make a deal for a defensive center, that's very good of face-offs.

Not a Flyers fan (obviously), but that's good to read. Primeau's last playoff performance was inspirational.

If he were unable to go, I'd bet that Clarke would let the kid centers continue to get plenty of icetime until around trade deadline time.

By that time, that defensive center you may need could likely be found in Edmonton. And he'd likely cost little to nothing.

Patty Ice 11-27-2005 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad
It would take a lot. Pitkanen is definitely the Flyers best defenseman, and without him, I think the entire D corps would go in the toilet. He and Rathje make up the best pairing the Flyers have, and the only one that is consistently good. Johnsson is a very good defenseman, and Desjardins has been playing well, but they're more inconsistent and prone to screwing up then Pitkanen. Hatcher has been good he last few games, but he struggles with not being able to manhandle forwards. Therien is just crap.

With Pitkanen's skating ability and good positioning, he can do things that the other Flyers' defenseman can't. He can skate with any forward, will not get burnt by speed, and won't get beat one on one. IMO, he has the best defensive skills of any Flyers defenseman. Offensively, he's obviously the best. As I said, if he were to be dealt, the Flyers defense would be in trouble. From San Jose's side, they'd have to include one of their big defenseman, and I don't think they'd want to do that either. At 22 years old, Pitkanen is only going to get better, and as JFF alluded to, there are very few players I'd trade him for straight up. It would take a big overpayment.

I disagree. I am not really comfortable with either Esche or Niittymaki as this team's number one goaltender right now.

Niittymaki is just not ready. I still believe he has a ton of talent and will develop into a very strong starting goaltender in the NHL, but he's not there yet. We have to remember that he's still a rookie and he still has a long way to go before he develops fully. He's just not ready for a number one job.

To put it bluntly, I just don't believe Esche is good enough. In my estimation, he's an average starting goaltender in the NHL. In today's game, with the parity of the league and how tight playoff battles are, I don't think you can win with a goaltender who is just "average." At least in the Flyers case, their team defense does not appear to be good enough to make up for Esche's blunders.

Last season, the Flyers could cover up some of Esche's mistakes with a heavy defensive system, and just collapsing down low in front of the net with their defenseman. They could simply cross check any opposing forwards out of the way. With the new rules, they can't legally do that anymore; the forwards have a much easier time going and picking up his big time rebounds. Esche's weaknesses have become more apparent. At the 1/4 mark, I'm starting to think that Esche wasn't in a "slump," but rather we need to realize that this is what we're going to get. IMO, it's not enough.

If Esche's play hasn't picked up a lot by the deadline, I'd be completely in favor of looking elsewhere for a goaltender. I would hope Clarke would too.

I knew as soon as I wrote that it would be shot down and with good reason. Pitkanen is one in a million type of player and was looking for some opinions (like John Flyer's which I totally agree with) on Nabby's value from non-Sharks fans.

Besides, even if the Flyers were to deal for Nabby could they take the salary without surrendering some? A more realistic would be Johnsson centered deal if the Flyers where inclined to move him for goaltending help.

Ex Storm 11-27-2005 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trottier
Not a Flyers fan (obviously), but that's good to read. Primeau's last playoff performance was inspirational.

If he were unable to go, I'd bet that Clarke would let the kid centers continue to get plenty of icetime until around trade deadline time.

By that time, that defensive center you may need could likely be found in Edmonton. And he'd likely cost little to nothing.

That's interesting, I had never considered Peca. I would consider it, depending on what is being asked in return. I know offensively he hasn't been great in Edmonton, but it's not really his role to score goals.

Brad* 11-27-2005 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patty Ice
Besides, even if the Flyers were to deal for Nabby could they take the salary without surrendering some? A more realistic would be Johnsson centered deal if the Flyers where inclined to move him for goaltending help.

The Flyers have about $2 million in cap space, the last I read. Maybe less. Nabakov makes $3.3 million according to NHLPA.com, so the Flyers would certainly have to send some salary the other way. Johnsson makes about $2.2 million, so a deal centered around those two players could possibly work, at least salary wise.

How well has Nabakov been playing? His stats don't look too hot, but I know that can be deceiving.

strokes555 11-27-2005 08:27 PM

How bout Peca for Kapanen, or something along those lines?

Roger's Pancreas* 11-27-2005 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strokes555
How bout Peca for Kapanen, or something along those lines?

Our lack of depth at the wings make moving Kapanen, Knuble, or Gagne pretty improbable.

If anything were to happen like an earlier poster said, it would be focused around Johnsson or Zeus.

Patty Ice 11-27-2005 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad
The Flyers have about $2 million in cap space, the last I read. Maybe less. Nabakov makes $3.3 million according to NHLPA.com, so the Flyers would certainly have to send some salary the other way. Johnsson makes about $2.2 million, so a deal centered around those two players could possibly work, at least salary wise.

How well has Nabakov been playing? His stats don't look too hot, but I know that can be deceiving.

Nabby is looking a little bothered lately. Definitely not playing up to his ability and I think a change of scenery could be coming soon.

Much like a few years ago where a goalie had to go, I think Nabby should be the candidate to go as he is not, in my opinion, better than Toskala skill-wise and would no doubt yield a higher return. Schaefer, though I'm still apprehensive, has done well enough warrant a longer look as a NHL backup and I think Toskala could shine if handed the reigns as No. 1.

It's unfortunate the Keith is on the shelf cuz I think a Johnsson and Primeau for Nabokov and McCauley could be a win-win for both clubs. Maybe Handzus could be substituted?

stanley 11-27-2005 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liquidrage
Perezhogin

But really, if a hit like that will do this to someone, it was just a matter of time. Even if KP does come back, he'll get hit again at some point and the symptoms will come back.

I also suspect some of it lingers from that collision with Holik in 2003-04. Cumulative, is what we're told...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad
The Flyers have about $2 million in cap space, the last I read. Maybe less. Nabakov makes $3.3 million according to NHLPA.com, so the Flyers would certainly have to send some salary the other way. Johnsson makes about $2.2 million, so a deal centered around those two players could possibly work, at least salary wise.

If at the deadline, they wouldn't have to worry about salary since they'd only be paying the pro-rated value of that annual amount, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by strokes555
How bout Peca for Kapanen, or something along those lines?

It looks fair on paper. However, I think it would simply be an exercise in creating a need elsewhere. If they're really interested in making a serious run, they'd have to move prospects, picks, or a young player who isn't as vital as is Kapanen. Know what I mean?


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