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LALALALALALAFONTAINE 10-13-2003 09:44 AM

Two lousy games
 
Two lousy games and you guys are calling for Ruff's head?

How did the Bills start this season? With two dominating victories....followed by 3 excruciatingly painful losses and an OT win against the Bungholes. Wade Phillips had a much better record in Buffalo than Greg Williams does.

Did our two victories to start last season inspire posts for extending Ruff's contract? We all know how last season ended.

Go ahead and abandon ship. The ones confusing Todd Marchant with Todd Bertuzzi don't deserve any mind to begin with.

I remember the Sabres under Nolan: how a team with the two best Sabres ever, Lafontaine and Hasek, along with Peca, could not make the playoffs. I remember how that Nolan team was outworked by the choking Ottawa Sens in the playoffs.

I remember the Sabres under Muckler, who unlike Nolan, had a track record of success. May Day and nothing else.

I remember the Ted Sators, Rick Dudleys and Scotty Bowmans leading us to first round failures year after year.

Only once has a coach led the Sabres to repeated success in the playoffs: Ruff. Why the hell do we want to get rid of that? Are your memories that short that you can't remember the decades of futility preceding 1999?

imyourhuckleberry 10-13-2003 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LALALALALALAFONTAINE
Two lousy games and you guys are calling for Ruff's head?

How did the Bills start this season? With two dominating victories....followed by 3 excruciatingly painful losses and an OT win against the Bungholes. Wade Phillips had a much better record in Buffalo than Greg Williams does.

Did our two victories to start last season inspire posts for extending Ruff's contract? We all know how last season ended.

Go ahead and abandon ship. The ones confusing Todd Marchant with Todd Bertuzzi don't deserve any mind to begin with.

I remember the Sabres under Nolan: how a team with the two best Sabres ever, Lafontaine and Hasek, along with Peca, could not make the playoffs. I remember how that Nolan team was outworked by the choking Ottawa Sens in the playoffs.

I remember the Sabres under Muckler, who unlike Nolan, had a track record of success. May Day and nothing else.

I remember the Ted Sators, Rick Dudleys and Scotty Bowmans leading us to first round failures year after year.

Only once has a coach led the Sabres to repeated success in the playoffs: Ruff. Why the hell do we want to get rid of that? Are your memories that short that you can't remember the decades of futility preceding 1999?




Someone has to be blamed and you can fire one person (a coach) easier than you can fire 18 players.

ajsonor 10-13-2003 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sabres22
Someone has to be blamed and you can fire one person (a coach) easier than you can fire 18 players.

Someone from the Islanders said the same thing before the game on Saturday. Its true.

djhn579 10-13-2003 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LALALALALALAFONTAINE
Two lousy games and you guys are calling for Ruff's head?

How did the Bills start this season? With two dominating victories....followed by 3 excruciatingly painful losses and an OT win against the Bungholes. Wade Phillips had a much better record in Buffalo than Greg Williams does.

Did our two victories to start last season inspire posts for extending Ruff's contract? We all know how last season ended.

Go ahead and abandon ship. The ones confusing Todd Marchant with Todd Bertuzzi don't deserve any mind to begin with.

I remember the Sabres under Nolan: how a team with the two best Sabres ever, Lafontaine and Hasek, along with Peca, could not make the playoffs. I remember how that Nolan team was outworked by the choking Ottawa Sens in the playoffs.

I remember the Sabres under Muckler, who unlike Nolan, had a track record of success. May Day and nothing else.

I remember the Ted Sators, Rick Dudleys and Scotty Bowmans leading us to first round failures year after year.

Only once has a coach led the Sabres to repeated success in the playoffs: Ruff. Why the hell do we want to get rid of that? Are your memories that short that you can't remember the decades of futility preceding 1999?

I don't have the time to check the history files right now, but under Ted Nolan, the team was improving just about each year. Ruff took over and had a couple of good years with the players that had been previously couched by Nolan and acquired by Muckler. What has happened after those first two years under Ruff? The team has steadily gone down hill. If Ruff is such a great couch, how come he can't get the team to come out playing with some passion for the home opener. The couch's job is to teach and to motivate. The first two games I saw this year the team looked like they had no coaching and I didn't see a lot of motivation. I'm not calling for Ruffs head yet, but if he doesn't do something to get the players attention, he will need to be replaced. After a certain period of time, all coaches go stale and the players tune them out. That seems to be the case so far this year.

WhoIsJimBob 10-14-2003 02:18 AM

Quote:

I don't have the time to check the history files right now, but under Ted Nolan, the team was improving just about each year.
Ted Nolan only coached for two years, so saying he improved every year is a stretch.

His first year they missed the playoffs with Hasek and Lafontaine.

Ted's second year they won the division with Hasek and a bunch of scrubs.

Then it was on to the Regier-Ruff era where the team wasn't all that great in the regular season, but was better in the playoffs the next two years.

Quote:

What has happened after those first two years under Ruff? The team has steadily gone down hill.
Then they dealt with the SCF hangover by getting bounced in the 1st round.

And then there was the whole Peca holdout and Hasek letting Kasper send the Sabres to the golf course.

And now without Hasek the team is where they were before he arrived on the scene. A team that struggles to win night in and night out.

LALALALALALAFONTAINE 10-14-2003 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajsonor
Someone from the Islanders said the same thing before the game on Saturday. Its true.

It's easier, but it isn't effective.

LALALALALALAFONTAINE 10-14-2003 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djhn579
I don't have the time to check the history files right now, but under Ted Nolan, the team was improving just about each year. Ruff took over and had a couple of good years with the players that had been previously couched by Nolan and acquired by Muckler. What has happened after those first two years under Ruff? The team has steadily gone down hill. If Ruff is such a great couch, how come he can't get the team to come out playing with some passion for the home opener. The couch's job is to teach and to motivate. The first two games I saw this year the team looked like they had no coaching and I didn't see a lot of motivation. I'm not calling for Ruffs head yet, but if he doesn't do something to get the players attention, he will need to be replaced. After a certain period of time, all coaches go stale and the players tune them out. That seems to be the case so far this year.

Let me dispel the following myths:

1. To say Nolan's teams improved every year is facile, since he only coached two years. And the Sabres, with the two best players in Sabres history (Lafontaine and Hasek) did not make the playoffs in Nolan's first year. The Sabres got worse in Nolan's first year.

2. To say Ruff lived off of Nolan's coaching and players is completely wrong. Nolan didn't even coach 10 players on the 1999 team. Ruff got much better performances out of Satan, McKee, Hasek, Grosek, Brown and Varada - who were vital cogs in 1999. If you'll remember, Satan was deep in Nolan's doghouse with McKee. Hasek couldn't stand Nolan and vice-versa.

Players who performed better under Ruff than Nolan (6):
Satan
Hasek
McKee
Grosek
Brown
Varada

Players who performed better under Nolan than Ruff (3):
Shannon
Holzinger
Ray

Players who performed the same (5):
Zhitnik
Smehlik
Peca
Ward
Primeau

Players Nolan never coached (10):
Roloson
Warrener
Patrick
Woolley
Juneau
Barnes
Sanderson
Rasmussen
Cunneyworth
Kruse

3. Motivation? How was Ted Nolan a great motivator? Did he motivate the Mike Wilson? Jason Dawe? No. The same unmotivated players stayed unmotivated. And don't buy the Hardest Working Team in Hockey marketing slogan. The reality, especially in the playoffs, was much different:

http://slam.canoe.ca/HockeyNHL97Pla...25_buf_ott.html

"The Sabres have endeared themselves to Buffalo fans with their blue-collar style, but the Senators have outworked them for the past two games. With 16 minutes left in the second period, fans were booing Buffalo and hardly let up in the third."

Note several things:
a. It was the playoffs, which is when a team is supposed to outwork someone else.
b. Our opponent was the Ottawa Senators. Until recently, the Sens were renowned for their lack of effort in the postseason.
c. The Sabres were the #2 seed. The Sens were the #7 seed.

4. And lets compare their records with and without Hasek. Ruff is superior to Nolan:

Ruff with Hasek: 115-76-37 .586
Nolan with Hasek: 59-50-16 .536

Ruff, no Hasek: 101-120-34-9 .464
Nolan, no Hasek: 14-22-3-0 .397

djhn579 10-14-2003 06:14 AM

Okay, then tell me, are the Sabres more aggressive now than they were under Nolan? Outside of Satan, what play has really developed under Ruffs coaching? I think Ruff is a bit over rated, and I don't think as an organization we have ever did a good job of developing players, and it seems worse now than ever. Nolan had the Sabres playing as a team and sticking up for one another (mostly), under Ruff, everyone seems to play as individuals.

It's just my opinion, but

Teaching and motivation... I still don't see much from Ruff...

(Let's see how long he can keep them motivated after beating Dallas...)

Prospect Prophet 10-14-2003 06:21 AM

Get off the Nolan bandwagon he isn't coming back and he hasn't found even an assistants coach's job in the NHL since he's left. If he was that good he would have a job.

Buffaloed 10-14-2003 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sabres22
Someone has to be blamed and you can fire one person (a coach) easier than you can fire 18 players.

Since failing to make the playoffs in 2001-02 the Sabres have "fired" 12 players (Rasmussen, Gratton, Varada, Ray, Woolley, Warrener, Barnes, Smehlik, Corkum, Kozlov, Hamel and Essensa). I could come up with 6 or 7 that were "fired" the year before.

TVanek26* 10-14-2003 08:00 AM

Heh, I wanted Gregg Williams fired the past 2 years because of how bad he coaches.I agree,Ruff doesn't deserve to be fired.With a 30 million dollar budget, he got the team twice to the ECF.

djhn579 10-14-2003 08:23 AM

First off, I'm not on the Nolan bandwagon. I never said bring Nolan back. I am asking what has Ruff done that makes you think that is so great as a coach. He took the Sabres deep in the playoffs his first two years. Then what?

A good coach gets their players to play to their potential. If you think that is what they have done the last two years... we are in pretty sad shape.

A good coach also develops talent. I have seen little development from anyone in this organization.

Maybe some people should stop living in the past and start asking "What have you done for me lately?"

LALALALALALAFONTAINE 10-14-2003 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djhn579
Okay, then tell me, are the Sabres more aggressive now than they were under Nolan? Outside of Satan, what play has really developed under Ruffs coaching? I think Ruff is a bit over rated, and I don't think as an organization we have ever did a good job of developing players, and it seems worse now than ever. Nolan had the Sabres playing as a team and sticking up for one another (mostly), under Ruff, everyone seems to play as individuals.

It's just my opinion, but

Teaching and motivation... I still don't see much from Ruff...

(Let's see how long he can keep them motivated after beating Dallas...)

Satan developed under Ruff. He was in Nolan's doghouse.

McKee did nothing under Nolan, but developed to the point of a Team Canada invite under Ruff. He was in Nolan's doghouse.

Grosek has his best year under Ruff.

Warrener developed under Ruff in Florida, sucked after Ruff left, and regained his game in Buffalo under Ruff.

Woolley, despite his criticism of Ruff, had his best years under Ruff.

Jovanovski developed under Ruff.

How did Drury not stick up for Satan the other night? How did Nolan stick up for Hasek when Hasek got injured?

Chainshot 10-14-2003 11:54 AM

Quote:

Okay, then tell me, are the Sabres more aggressive now than they were under Nolan?
Aggressive players play aggressive hockey. Coaches can bring it to the fore, but one must have players who are interested in that aspect of the game before making that a stylistic approach. Nolan via Muckler had more highly aggressive players than Ruff has under Regier. Darcy has molded the on-ice personnel and regularly replaced grit with softer yet supposedly more skilled players. In terms of aggression, I blame Regier for the current makeup of the squad, for its personality.

Buffaloed 10-14-2003 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chainshot
Aggressive players play aggressive hockey. Coaches can bring it to the fore, but one must have players who are interested in that aspect of the game before making that a stylistic approach. Nolan via Muckler had more highly aggressive players than Ruff has under Regier. Darcy has molded the on-ice personnel and regularly replaced grit with softer yet supposedly more skilled players. In terms of aggression, I blame Regier for the current makeup of the squad, for its personality.

The Sabres management, including Ruff, seems to have a very difficult time dealing with players with aggressive personalities. They tend to speak their minds, and will stand up for their principles, no matter how ridiculous. Anyone with an ounce of fire in their personality ends up being dumped because they can't get along with Ruff or Regier. I'm sure the Sabres would like to have more aggressive players, but they're unwilling to pay the maintenance costs.

MLH 10-14-2003 06:46 PM

Which agressive players have had problems with Ruff/Regeir? The three players that I remember voicing problems after leaving Buffalo were Woolley, Kozlov, and Heinz, none of them agressive players. Peca's squabble was money oriented I don't think that it had anything to do with conflicting personalities.

Buffaloed 10-14-2003 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BartG101
Which agressive players have had problems with Ruff/Regeir? The three players that I remember voicing problems after leaving Buffalo were Woolley, Kozlov, and Heinz, none of them agressive players. Peca's squabble was money oriented I don't think that it had anything to do with conflicting personalities.

Gilmour, Gratton, Varada, Grosek, Barnaby, Rasmussen, May, Primeau, Boughner, Galley, Kruse ... Other than Peca and Ray, I can't think of any "aggressive" players that didn't have problems playing for Ruff. Ruff had a young core (Varada, Barnaby, Rasmussen, Grosek & Primeau) of talented, aggressive players. He alienated and arrested the development of every one of them by forcing them into checking roles. Regier held onto those guys as long as possible hoping they'd develop. All 5 of them requested trades.

WhoIsJimBob 10-15-2003 02:24 AM

Wayne Primeau and Erik Rasmussen were talented??????

MLH 10-15-2003 05:41 AM

Brad May has no problem with Ruff or Regeir. He almost signed with them over the summer and even told some of his friends in Buffalo that he was going to be a Sabre again. Gilmour's biggest problem was with the Hockey Hotline crew. Gary Galley never played for Ruff. Paul Kruse? Are you serious? Varada was his best under Ruff and had no problem playing his style. Varada's game was perfect for defensive play. Michael Grosek should have stayed with the defensive style because he's done nothing since Buffalo. Barnaby made his own bed, and Gratton while big, was rarely aggressive. I don't believe that any of the players you mentioned (maybe Boughner) ever stated they had a problem with Ruff/Regier. I think you're trying to create a problem that isn't there.

LALALALALALAFONTAINE 10-15-2003 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buffaloed
Gilmour, Gratton, Varada, Grosek, Barnaby, Rasmussen, May, Primeau, Boughner, Galley, Kruse ... Other than Peca and Ray, I can't think of any "aggressive" players that didn't have problems playing for Ruff. Ruff had a young core (Varada, Barnaby, Rasmussen, Grosek & Primeau) of talented, aggressive players. He alienated and arrested the development of every one of them by forcing them into checking roles. Regier held onto those guys as long as possible hoping they'd develop. All 5 of them requested trades.

Gratton, Rasmussen, Primeau and Galley were not aggressive players.

How talented were Barnaby, Rasmussen and Primeau? Barnaby has never scored 20 goals, and his crybaby act has been repeated in every place he's played. Grosek had his ONLY 20 goal season under Ruff. He didn't do as well under Nolan. Primeau had his three best seasons under Ruff. He scored 2 goals under Nolan. The overly talented Rasmussen scored more than 10 goals once, and once again it was under Ruff.

Gilmour? Good riddance. His play deserved Ruff's criticism - although Gilmour was more upset that Robitaille and Blessing made him play like crap.

What problem did Ruff have with Kruse? May? Boughner? Please cite something.

Cite where Varada demanded a trade.

krt88 10-15-2003 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Bob
Wayne Primeau and Erik Rasmussen were talented??????


According to where the Sabres drafted them....yes.

Both had lots of talent and NO HEART, can't blame coaching for that but I do blame the organziation as a whole for not developing their talent enough. New Jersey and Colorado both do a fantastic job of taking talent young players and turning them into very productive NHL players. Why can't the Sabres do the

LALALALALALAFONTAINE 10-15-2003 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BartG101
Which agressive players have had problems with Ruff/Regeir? The three players that I remember voicing problems after leaving Buffalo were Woolley, Kozlov, and Heinz, none of them agressive players. Peca's squabble was money oriented I don't think that it had anything to do with conflicting personalities.

I recall Peca stating how much he loved playing for Ruff on WGR. The Coach asked him this, trying to stir up some $hit. It was funny hearing Dickerson get deflated when Peca praised him.

WhoIsJimBob 10-15-2003 07:49 AM

Quote:

According to where the Sabres drafted them....yes.
Where you are drafted isn't a direct coorelation to how talented a player is.

And if you look back in history size is usually valued more when drafting a player than pure skill.

Exhibit A: Jiri Hudler falling to the Red Wings at the bottom of the 2nd round in 2002.

If players were drafted merely on talent, then Hudler would have been a high 1st round pick.


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