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-   -   Wing musings: To trade, or not? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=197925)

octopi 12-04-2005 11:55 PM

Wing musings: To trade, or not?
 
I think I've gotten to the point where I wouldn't mind seeing a major
trade.So, whos untouchable?

I say no way do Kronvall or Zetterberg gat traded.(Not that Kronwall is tradable now, anyways)

I also say no more than , oh, 3 players.

I am totally okay with trading Datsyuk. I love the little guy, but .....I think he might be able to get some good returns, plus the team needs to get tougher. Bring in a power forward. So, whoch struggling team should the Wings trade with? I'm thinking East conference is the most probable, although I wonder if trading with Colorado, Vancouver would be plausable....

fischer8 12-05-2005 12:00 AM

I've always been a fan of trading Datsyuk to Washington for some prospects. Ovechkin could use a good center.

Fehr, plus
for
Datsyuk?

Maybe a defensive prospect or pick to even things out. Fehr would give Detroit a sizable winger which is exactly what we lack.

Quote:

Originally Posted by octopi
I think I've gotten to the point where I wouldn't mind seeing a major
trade.So, whos untouchable?

I say no way do Kronvall or Zetterberg gat traded.(Not that Kronwall is tradable now, anyways)

I also say no more than , oh, 3 players.

I am totally okay with trading Datsyuk. I love the little guy, but .....I think he might be able to get some good returns, plus the team needs to get tougher. Bring in a power forward. So, whoch struggling team should the Wings trade with? I'm thinking East conference is the most probable, although I wonder if trading with Colorado, Vancouver would be plausable....


stu the grim reaper 12-05-2005 12:02 AM

we need a jordin tootoo

octopi 12-05-2005 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fischer8
I've always been a fan of trading Datsyuk to Washington for some prospects. Ovechkin could use a good center.

Fehr, plus
for
Datsyuk?

Maybe a defensive prospect or pick to even things out. Fehr would give Detroit a sizable winger which is exactly what we lack.

Fehr plus....Witt?

Friesen doesn't seem to want to be there, could probably get him. Would the Wings want him though?

Shoalzie 12-05-2005 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stu the grim reaper
we need a jordin tootoo


I'm starting to wish we kept McCarty. This team is missing a little something and he would've provided some spark and energy that this club is lacking. They are almost too robotic. Aside from Chelios and Shanahan, there are no guys that play angry. They are plenty talented but they could use an abrasive pest out there...not necessarily an enforcer.

doublejack 12-05-2005 10:54 AM

I may get torched for suggesting this, but here goes nothing... If Hudler plays well during this callup and it looks like he should be kept with the big club, how does trading Draper and Maltby for Peca sound?

I think the Oilers might just go for that deal. Peca isn't fitting in with Edmonton, he's struggling right now much like Draper is for us. He's mired on the 4th line and has 2 goals to date. So they'd be trading their problem child for two of ours. Age wise Peca is a little younger than Draper & Maltby but not much. From a salary perspective it's about even. The Oilers would actually clear a little cap space. And I think Draper & Maltby would be a nice fit for the style the Oilers play.

For the Wings this could work out well. It frees up a roster spot for Hudler and unloads two contracts that just aren't worth it (in hindsight these two should have been bought out). We would have to live with Peca's contract, but at least he brings more to the table than Draper. Peca has multiple 20 goal seasons under his belt and is usually good for 40+ points. So he's got a legit scoring punch that Draper lacks.

Would this be a reasonable trade?

Fryer 12-05-2005 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doublejack
I may get torched for suggesting this, but here goes nothing... If Hudler plays well during this callup and it looks like he should be kept with the big club, how does trading Draper and Maltby for Peca sound?

I think the Oilers might just go for that deal. Peca isn't fitting in with Edmonton, he's struggling right now much like Draper is for us. He's mired on the 4th line and has 2 goals to date. So they'd be trading their problem child for two of ours. Age wise Peca is a little younger than Draper & Maltby but not much. From a salary perspective it's about even. The Oilers would actually clear a little cap space. And I think Draper & Maltby would be a nice fit for the style the Oilers play.

For the Wings this could work out well. It frees up a roster spot for Hudler and unloads two contracts that just aren't worth it (in hindsight these two should have been bought out). We would have to live with Peca's contract, but at least he brings more to the table than Draper. Peca has multiple 20 goal seasons under his belt and is usually good for 40+ points. So he's got a legit scoring punch that Draper lacks.

Would this be a reasonable trade?

Only from an Edmonton fan point of view. Peca is done. He used to be a really good 3rd line checking center but after that piece of garbage Darcy Tucker took his knee out Peca has very little value and not a scoring threat whatsoever. In his past 2 years of playing with Islanders Peca may have no more than a dozen even strength goals. His speed is nowhere close to Drapers. I would not trade Drapes for him straight up let alone throwing Maltby into this deal.
Malts and Drapes are not our biggest problem. I agree that we do miss some grit but our current roster of forwards is not that high on skill as well. If the Wings are to go after a power forward it is better be a skilled one. I read that Bertuzzi wants out of Vancouver - not that I want this guy but someone with comparable skills should go in if Dats is sent packing.
Trading Datsyuk for prospects at this point will leave the team without a scoring center and, IMHO, puts a huge cork in any playoff aspirations.

sarcastro 12-05-2005 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shoalzie
I'm starting to wish we kept McCarty. This team is missing a little something and he would've provided some spark and energy that this club is lacking. They are almost too robotic. Aside from Chelios and Shanahan, there are no guys that play angry. They are plenty talented but they could use an abrasive pest out there...not necessarily an enforcer.

Keeping McCarty would mean no Datsyuk. No thanks. Besides, when was the last time Mac made it past the new year without getting hurt?

As to the Peca thing, that would be a horrible move. Trading two guys that are great on the PK and have good speed but no hands for one guy that has no speed and no hands anymore. No thanks. If they could trade them to the Devils for Madden, then that would be a deal to think about.

They shouldn't trade for anyone, IMO, unless they can find a Thornton-esque deal out there somewhere and can make it work capwise. The team has too bright a future to start messing with it now. I went into this season (keeping in mind I'm a fan, not a GM or anything) with the mindset that I didn't expect the Wings to do anything in the playoffs, but that the regular season should be good and starting next year they should be in terrific shape with the young players they have. That has not changed for me. This season is a bonus as far as I'm concerned. 2-3 years from now, this should be the best team in the league.

doublejack 12-05-2005 12:05 PM

I wasn't aware that Peca was damaged goods. That's a bummer because otherwise the trade looks good imo. But still, Peca had 40 points last season with the Isles and I think he could do ok here. I think a big part of our problem is Draper and Maltby. Yeah, they kill penalties. But so can Franzen, Cleary, Zetterberg, Yzerman and Shanny even.

And outside of the PK what are Draper and Maltby useful for? Nothing. 5-on-5 they've been brutal. As NGO said, they kill whatever line they're on. And the fact is while they are both still fairly fast, they are no longer elite skaters. And as they get older that's not going to get any better. So with that line of thinking I still like the idea of trading them for Peca. At least it consolidates two poblems down to one.

sarcastro just posted about how bright the future of the team is. I agree, and getting there involves shedding deadweight like Draper & Maltby to make room for the youth. It wouldn't be an issue if Yzerman were the only player who is a shadow of his former self. But the K's are done too, Woolley isn't so hot since his first groin injury, and Mowers & Rivers are just warm bodies.

This team needs a burner, a banger and a top-4 defenseman. The guys I just named are the most expendable imo. I think Holland needs to come up with a creative way to get rid of those guys and hopefully get something useful in return. At the very least, clearing out the deadweight makes room for some of the youngsters to get in the lineup.

sarcastro 12-05-2005 12:39 PM

See, I agree that they need a burner a banger and a top 4 defenseman. But I don't think trades are the way to go.

Kronwall and Fischer are both top 4 defensemen. Assuming one of them is back and in game shape for the playoffs, that satisfies that need. Then the D would be Lids-Schneider-Fisch/Kronwall-Chelios-Lilja-Lebda-Woolley, which isn't so bad.

Hudler and/or Filppula don't necessarily qualify as burners, but they are close enough, and have plenty of skill to boot.

Grigs may or may not be a banger - his scouting reports suggest he is a physical player. The Stein is a banger, and could develop into a scoring line player in time.

All the pieces the Wings need are somewhere in the system, one year away. Should they trade some of these assets for a stopgap now? I say no. Will other teams give us what we need for Maltby and Draper? I say no. So trades don't make sense. Hang onto the assets, make the best of it this year and then dominate for the next decade when the new core is in place.

Next season, the Wings will have cap space to sign a banger if Grigs doesn't cut it, and they'll have money to spend on a top 4 defenseman even if Lidstrom comes back, because I'm assuming he'll only be back at a reduced salary or not at all. The Wings will probably explore trades for Maltby, Draper and Homer in the offseason to make room for the kids. Possibly Lang too.

zetterberg40 12-05-2005 12:54 PM

fehr for datsyuk? no not even right now if they added another prospect. We are contenders, we need size on the wing who can score, Murray would be awesome right now if we had money...

we aint got no money to spend really. Fisch is most likely out, Kronwall is out a little longer, id like to know how much money we really got and then find out what we can do. Huselius if we had money would have been a great addition. 3 assists in his debut in calgary, the kid would have looked awesome on a line with Shanahan and Lang once healthy.

Hopefully Holland will be able to find some way to get a defensemen if ficher is out or another forward. Lets hope Kronwall make a Healthy Recovery...

zetterberg40 12-05-2005 01:01 PM

How can you call draper and maltby dead weight? sure they make a ton, you go ahead of get rid of them, our PK will drop out of the top 20 as far as im concerned. They are what will make us or break us come playoff time, sure this regular season draper isnt scoring a ton but do you recall our PK up till our so called slump was top5 for a while and they were killing everything..

If you think Yzerman, Zetterberg, Franzen and Cleary will shut down playoff PP's you are obviously full of yourself

Motown Beatdown 12-05-2005 01:03 PM

I think Datsyuk would be a perfect fit for Edmonton. They lack a true 1st line center and are wasting Smyth and Hemsky.

Next question is what would we get in return. I'd have to ask for Torres and Pisani as part of the package.

zetterberg40 12-05-2005 01:11 PM

Lets say Fischer is out. Kronwall comes back, stays healthy:

Lidstrom - Kronwall
Schneider - Lilja/Woolley/Lebda (id almost perfer lebda schneids looks comfortable with him)
Chelios - Woolley/Lilja

That isnt tooooooo bad, we gain more PP QB instincts with Kronny back. If Fisch can come back, wooooow we are going to look pretty good, though i perfer to just throw fisch with chelios and dont over work him. Man what a tough break this was for Fisch, all these injuries and he could have gotten almost 20 mins a game

Upfront we lack scoring badly. We might be one of the more offensive teams, but when schneids has 9, thats a lot from 1 guy comming from the point, weve gotten lucky with his goals lately. Hes not going to get 30 so we need to see if we can add more scoring. Yzerman as bad as it sucks to say it, and i hate to say it, isnt cutting it anymore. Poor guy. I just wish we could get another scoring guy in here, maybe a scorer with size, maybe a half ***** sniper who has fallen off charts and babs will take a gamble on getting his career restored, its gonna be interesting but i dont think we can go into the playoffs with this forward unit, inless hudler can produce and score or get someone scoring a ton, but Shanahan is the only pure sniper this team has, which isnt a good sign.

zetterberg40 12-05-2005 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWI19
I think Datsyuk would be a perfect fit for Edmonton. They lack a true 1st line center and are wasting Smyth and Hemsky.

Next question is what would we get in return. I'd have to ask for Torres and Pisani as part of the package.

You cant trade Datsyuk to the west, it could very well haunt us, more then likely we would need to go east, Maybe we could get Drury and something else from Buffalo for him if we had to trade him. Drury always was a wing killer, maybe he could score a few for us. I dont wanna trade Datsyuk though

8snake 12-05-2005 01:26 PM

Funny how Datsyuk's name is brought up on this thread as trade bait yet Hank remains untouchable. Without turning this into another Pav vs. Hank thread, both players have been ineffective of late and both players are struggling right now. But to say Hank is playing better than Pav is garbage. IMO he's been his play has been as poor if not worse. Talk of trading him for guys like Torres and Pasani is absurd. :shakehead This board is reaching meltdown mode with trade talks this soon in the season. I'm like Higgy on this one, the season is full of peaks and valleys...heck, I remember when Detroit lost to the Avs and got crushed by the Devils in the '02 Cup season I wanted everybody traded :) Let's finish this Eastern part of the sched and see where the Wings are at then. ;)

Motown Beatdown 12-05-2005 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 8snake
Funny how Datsyuk's name is brought up on this thread as trade bait yet Hank remains untouchable. Without turning this into another Pav vs. Hank thread, both players have been ineffective of late and both players are struggling right now. But to say Hank is playing better than Pav is garbage. IMO he's been his play has been as poor if not worse. Talk of trading him for guys like Torres and Pasani is absurd. :shakehead This board is reaching meltdown mode with trade talks this soon in the season. I'm like Higgy on this one, the season is full of peaks and valleys...heck, I remember when Detroit lost to the Avs and got crushed by the Devils in the '02 Cup season I wanted everybody traded :) Let's finish this Eastern part of the sched and see where the Wings are at then. ;)

1st if you could read i said PART OF A PACKAGE!!

Z is younger and cheaper than Dats thats why he's more likely to be traded.

sarcastro 12-05-2005 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zetterberg40
How can you call draper and maltby dead weight? sure they make a ton, you go ahead of get rid of them, our PK will drop out of the top 20 as far as im concerned. They are what will make us or break us come playoff time, sure this regular season draper isnt scoring a ton but do you recall our PK up till our so called slump was top5 for a while and they were killing everything..

If you think Yzerman, Zetterberg, Franzen and Cleary will shut down playoff PP's you are obviously full of yourself

I'm not sure that shaking up a PK unit that's given up a goal in something like 18 of the last 19 games is a bad thing.....

People talk about trading Datsyuk more than Zetterberg because Hank is signed long-term and folks are worried about more blackmailing hyjinx from Pavel. Not to mention the fact that Hank is younger, cheaper, and at least as good a player right now.

zetterberg40 12-05-2005 02:00 PM

The thing is, id rather keep datsyuk inless another centerman emerges, datsyuk tho i dont think should be moved, he is 2nd on the team in pts i believe, and williams, williams of all people is leading us in pts

zetterberg40 12-05-2005 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarcastro
I'm not sure that shaking up a PK unit that's given up a goal in something like 18 of the last 19 games is a bad thing.....

People talk about trading Datsyuk more than Zetterberg because Hank is signed long-term and folks are worried about more blackmailing hyjinx from Pavel. Not to mention the fact that Hank is younger, cheaper, and at least as good a player right now.

i do. I definitely dont feel comfortable with Franzen, Zetterberg, Cleary and whoever else leading the PK units.. btw, who says they were the ones out there for that PK, maybe cleary needs to get off that and get someone else on there wtih Franzen..

doublejack 12-05-2005 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zetterberg40
How can you call draper and maltby dead weight? sure they make a ton, you go ahead of get rid of them, our PK will drop out of the top 20 as far as im concerned. They are what will make us or break us come playoff time, sure this regular season draper isnt scoring a ton but do you recall our PK up till our so called slump was top5 for a while and they were killing everything..

If you think Yzerman, Zetterberg, Franzen and Cleary will shut down playoff PP's you are obviously full of yourself

Our PK percentage has been dropping like the mercury in December. We gave up a PP goal in a dozen straight games, the streak just ended... finally. Right now Draper & Maltby couldn't shut down Santa Clause and his merry elves. And as NGO pointed out, they could be called for hooking on nearly every shift. Not exactly encouring stuff from defensive specialists.

Could Yzerman and crew shut down other team's PP? No. But they could do just as good a job as Draper & Maltby. Personally I feel Cleary and Franzen are already our best PK duo.

I'm sorry to say it, but the K2 twins have become useless. They are completely ineffective in 5-on-5 situations and are not even premier penalty killers anymore. Their biggest asset was their speed and that's going away on them. When they're on the ice the Wings have virtually no chance of scoring a goal. It's time to break ties and move on.

zetterberg40 12-05-2005 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doublejack
Our PK percentage has been dropping like the mercury in December. We gave up a PP goal in a dozen straight games, the streak just ended... finally. Right now Draper & Maltby couldn't shut down Santa Clause and his merry elves. And as NGO pointed out, they could be called for hooking on nearly every shift. Not exactly encouring stuff from defensive specialists.

Could Yzerman and crew shut down other team's PP? No. But they could do just as good a job as Draper & Maltby. Personally I feel Cleary and Franzen are already our best PK duo.

I'm sorry to say it, but the K2 twins have become useless. They are completely ineffective in 5-on-5 situations and are not even premier penalty killers anymore. Their biggest asset was their speed and that's going away on them. When they're on the ice the Wings have virtually no chance of scoring a goal. It's time to break ties and move on.

so because were struggling as a whole team in general we gotta deal 2 vet Pkers who arent even overly too old?

sarcastro 12-05-2005 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zetterberg40
so because were struggling as a whole team in general we gotta deal 2 vet Pkers who arent even overly too old?

There are a number of factors, the least of which is their ages- they make too much money, they produce no offense, and they're not performing their defensive roles very well anymore either. Add all that to their ages and you have to look at what you can get for them. But again, I point out that I don't think we'll get anything for them now, and probably won't get very much for them in the summer, but at least one will probably have to go.

doublejack 12-05-2005 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zetterberg40
so because were struggling as a whole team in general we gotta deal 2 vet Pkers who arent even overly too old?

I think so, yes. We have to shake up the team somehow and imo these are the most expendable of the players that get 15+ minutes a night. I wouldn't be opposed to waiving them even, maybe (hopefully) another team would claim them.

Let me put it this way... not all that long ago both Draper and Maltby played for Team Canada in international competition. Now being honest, do you think they have any chance of making the team for Turin? That's how far they have fallen.

The guys who log significant minutes need to contribute or the team will struggle. I don't think Draper or Maltby do enough to justify their presence anymore.

zetterberg40 12-05-2005 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doublejack
I think so, yes. We have to shake up the team somehow and imo these are the most expendable of the players that get 15+ minutes a night. I wouldn't be opposed to waiving them even, maybe (hopefully) another team would claim them.

Let me put it this way... not all that long ago both Draper and Maltby played for Team Canada in international competition. Now being honest, do you think they have any chance of making the team for Turin? That's how far they have fallen.

The guys who log significant minutes need to contribute or the team will struggle. I don't think Draper or Maltby do enough to justify their presence anymore.

How about instead of killing off our 3rd line/PK unit, we try and get another sniper since the last 2-3 games we've had the shots but lacked the quality of shots. With Lang out, Shanahan being the only pure scorer, we got too many players and not enough scorers.


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