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-   -   Crosby and Malkin - for how long? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=221130)

artilector 02-10-2006 11:13 AM

Crosby and Malkin - for how long?
 
With the cap, I think no team can afford to build around two offensive superstar centers once they demand market value. Wings had Yzerman/Fedorov, Avalanche had Sakic/Forsberg, it won't happen again:

- Too much salary locked up in two players
- Hard to find/afford enough skilled wings to maximize their production
- Hard to make enough ice-time for both
- Ego conflict

Assuming Malkin reaches that level, do you think Pittsburgh will be able to keep both long-term? Or is it better to eventually trade one of these centers for a great wing and depth? What would be a possible trade, in that case - what is a club with an overabundance of great wings and no centers?

Just as an example, how about Malkin-for-Nash in a couple of years, to yield
Crosby-Nash and Malkin-Zherdev pairings?

Keep in mind, Pittsburgh also has some other potentially expensive players. Improvising based on other posts (Fuhr86), projected market value:
Crosby - 7M+
Malkin - 7M+
Fleury - 6M
Whitney - 4M
06-pick - 4M
---
Total - 28M/5 players

(look at the Malkin trade thread for more crazy ideas)

aspdad 02-10-2006 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by artilector
Just as an example, how about Malkin-for-Nash in a couple of years, to yield
Crosby-Nash and Malkin-Zherdev pairings?

You don't have to worry about it for the first three years thanks to the rookie cap, but I don't see how trading nash for malkin is going to make a difference if they are both making 7 mil. you would still have the same payroll

Pens1566 02-10-2006 11:40 AM

To many assumptions and ifs, big ifs, make things like this a waste of time. For all we know, malkin might not come over next year. Or the cap might be up to 55 or 60 million by the time their rookie/rfa deals are up in 7 years.

korky00 02-10-2006 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by artilector
With the cap, I think no team can afford to build around two offensive superstar centers once they demand market value. Wings had Yzerman/Fedorov, Avalanche had Sakic/Forsberg, it won't happen again:

- Too much salary locked up in two players
- Hard to find/afford enough skilled wings to maximize their production
- Hard to make enough ice-time for both
- Ego conflict

Assuming Malkin reaches that level, do you think Pittsburgh will be able to keep both long-term? Or is it better to eventually trade one of these centers for a great wing and depth? What would be a possible trade, in that case - what is a club with an overabundance of great wings and no centers?

Just as an example, how about Malkin-for-Nash in a couple of years, to yield
Crosby-Nash and Malkin-Zherdev pairings?

Keep in mind, Pittsburgh also has some other potentially expensive players. Improvising based on other posts (Fuhr86), projected market value:
Crosby - 7M+
Malkin - 7M+
Fleury - 6M
Whitney - 4M
06-pick - 4M
---
Total - 28M/5 players

(look at the Malkin trade thread for more crazy ideas)



Lecavalier/St-Louis/Richards? :dunno: Gagne/Forsberg? :dunno:

Pens1566 02-10-2006 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by korky00
Lecavalier/St-Louis/Richards? :dunno: Gagne/Forsberg? :dunno:

Don't let facts get in the way of these what-if scenarios.

artilector 02-10-2006 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pens1566
To many assumptions and ifs, big ifs, make things like this a waste of time. For all we know, malkin might not come over next year. Or the cap might be up to 55 or 60 million by the time their rookie/rfa deals are up in 7 years.

What a boring post - a real waste of time! Welcome to the real world, its full of "if"s..
Malkin will be here, don't be ridiculous. All the assumptions are realistic. You better hope that your GM can keep future possibilities in mind!

artilector 02-10-2006 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by korky00
Lecavalier/St-Louis/Richards? :dunno: Gagne/Forsberg? :dunno:

Huh? I have no idea what you are saying... I refered to two offensive superstar centers being a problem. Gagne is not a center, neither is St.Louis, and Richards is a couple of notches below... so that is your point?

ceber 02-10-2006 12:00 PM

The cap doesn't care what position a guy plays.

Pens1566 02-10-2006 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by artilector
What a boring post - a real waste of time! Welcome to the real world, its full of "if"s..
Malkin will be here, don't be ridiculous. All the assumptions are realistic. You better hope that your GM can keep future possibilities in mind!

Really? Do know there is no transfer agreement in place with the russians? Do you know that Malkin is under contract with his russian team for the next 2 seasons after this one? What if the cap goes up 15 million? Then there's room. What if he gets hurt? What if the pens move, get sold to an owner with deep pockets?? Endless possiblities, endless argument with what ifs.

Pens1566 02-10-2006 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ceber
The cap doesn't care what position a guy plays.

Ahhh, but what if it is changed to do exactly that? Hey, this is fun! :biglaugh:

Brandinho 02-10-2006 12:24 PM

What if Evgeny Malkin is held hostage by the Russian government and they send us Yevgen Lakmil instead?

Pens1566 02-10-2006 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fyug
What if Evgeny Malkin is held hostage by the Russian government and they send us Yevgen Lakmil instead?

What if there is no Evgeni Malkin???

illogic 02-10-2006 12:30 PM

What if Evgeni Malkin is actually Neo and escapes the NHL matrix??

Jaded-Fan 02-10-2006 12:30 PM

The Cap really becomes an issue where the player has all the leverage after they become UFA's. This team will be together for the better part of a decade before that happens. Even then these situations as they have played out on other teams mostly show that the Pens will be able to keep who they want, they will just have to pay to do it and choose who they will give the max bucks to. The day dreams of those who never have a chance at these type of players because they . . .get this . . .get to enjoy playoff hockey year in and year out, the poor ******** . . . .well, keep dreaming. Because except for some very rare exceptions that happened this year, when some teams were not prepared for the new cap environment, you are not getting a potentially top three player in the league to fall in your lap any time soon other than the hard way . . . which is gonna happen to every team eventually in a cap environment.

Ovechkin_mvp 02-10-2006 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fyug
What if Evgeny Malkin is held hostage by the Russian government and they send us Yevgen Lakmil instead?

:biglaugh:

Ziggy Stardust 02-10-2006 12:48 PM

Did you bother to consider why Columbus would even trade Rick Nash? Enough with these ridiculous Malkin trade ideas. The Pens aren't trading him, and let's see what he can do in the NHL.

The Fuhr 02-10-2006 12:59 PM

It is a lot of what ifs but it is reasonable what ifs. Lets say the cap tops out at 50-55 million dollars. I come to this conclusion because the cap is likly to go up to 43 million dollars after this year. Do you really see the NHL generating more money in the furtue? I would go into more detail of the cap but this isn't the buisness thread.

So lets assume the cap is 55 million dollars 4 years from now and the Pens spend the max on there team, thats being generous but they could have a deep pocket owner.

-Crosby on his second contract he will make 6million a season. I think it will be a 3 year deal at 5,6,7 a season to average out to 6 million dollar cap hit. I'm going by the Nash contract to come to the conclusion of what Crosby will recieve.

-Malkin will be comming of his first contract and will ask for the same type of contract Crosby recieved so there is another 6million tied up in a player.

-Fleury 4 years from now will be a top 3 goaltender in the league and will be looking for Nabokov type money so lets say Fleury makes 5.5 a season.

- Whitney will be a 50+ point defenseman on the team so he will make along the lines 4.5 a season.

-Johnson who I think the Pens will select with the first overall pick will be comming off his rookie contract and will be making 3.5 million a season.

25.5 million dollars between 5 players which aint bad. That leaves 29.5 million dollars for 16 players or 1.9 million per player. The Pens will need to keep replacing non core players to keep the core 5. Crosby and Malkin will improve the production of wingers. Those wingers will be having career years and will want top dollar when there contracts are up. So is it possible to hold on to the core yes, but the Pens will have have to hope the Cap goes to 55 million with an owner who will spend to the max. The Pens will need to have some excellent scouting to continually bring in young guys to play with the core 5 as other players will want more money due to the production of playing with Malkin and Crosby. Heres hoping the Pens catch the breaks they need.

Irish Blues 02-10-2006 01:05 PM

If my understanding is correct, the Pens have until June 1, 2007 or so to get Malkin under contract or lose his rights. Teams can't just sit on the rights of players in Europe or Russia forever waiting on them to come over, at some point they'll either have to get the guy under contract or lose him.

So in a year and a half or so, this whole discussion may be moot.

Pens1566 02-10-2006 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irish Blues
If my understanding is correct, the Pens have until June 1, 2007 or so to get Malkin under contract or lose his rights. Teams can't just sit on the rights of players in Europe or Russia forever waiting on them to come over, at some point they'll either have to get the guy under contract or lose him.

So in a year and a half or so, this whole discussion may be moot.

I'm pretty sure it was moot before this thread was even started.

Irish Blues 02-10-2006 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pens1566
I'm pretty sure it was moot before this thread was even started.

I have to agree with you there.

boredmale 02-10-2006 01:27 PM

Crosby and Malkin will be like Shaq and Kobe, but without the championships

artilector 02-10-2006 01:43 PM

What I don't understand is why do so many people keep posting to say that the discussion is ridiculous?? Its like taking turns drinking brake fluid to concur that it tastes bad... Oh wait, maybe thats the reason for some of these posts :)

Bottom line, all Pens fans think there will be enough money to go around a few years from now for Crosby,Malkin,Fleury etc, and that these stars are good enough to turn everybody else into great players. I disagree, but under these assumptions, its indeed pointless to talk about a trade. So, everybody, put down the brake fluid! (until the next thread)

Pens1566 02-10-2006 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by artilector
What I don't understand is why do so many people keep posting to say that the discussion is ridiculous?? Its like taking turns drinking brake fluid to concur that it tastes bad... Oh wait, maybe thats the reason for some of these posts :)

Bottom line, all Pens fans think there will be enough money to go around a few years from now for Crosby,Malkin,Fleury etc, and that these stars are good enough to turn everybody else into great players. I disagree, but under these assumptions, its indeed pointless to talk about a trade. So, everybody, put down the brake fluid! (until the next thread)

The difference is that brake fluid serves a purpose, these don't.

Ziggy Stardust 02-10-2006 01:48 PM

So, the Pens won't be able to afford their young future stars, yet they will be able to deal one of them for an even more expensive player such as Rick Nash?

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. :shakehead

Beukeboom Fan 02-10-2006 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by artilector
What I don't understand is why do so many people keep posting to say that the discussion is ridiculous?? Its like taking turns drinking brake fluid to concur that it tastes bad... Oh wait, maybe thats the reason for some of these posts :)

Bottom line, all Pens fans think there will be enough money to go around a few years from now for Crosby,Malkin,Fleury etc, and that these stars are good enough to turn everybody else into great players. I disagree, but under these assumptions, its indeed pointless to talk about a trade. So, everybody, put down the brake fluid! (until the next thread)

It's just that this thread is putting the cart before the horse. You're worried about Crosby & Malkin becoming UFA's when the current CBA will expire before that happens. It just seems a little premature to get all worked up about having to keep your teams impact players at least 6 years before any of the players are UFA's. Call me crazy.

If Crosby and Malkin don't turn their teammates into great players - why would they deserve the "max" contract?

What team couldn't afford to have two highly paid players? Your post assumes that all of the other prospects reach elite status at their position (Fleury getting $6M, Whitney getting $4M, etc). If that happens, the Pens will be in such good shape they won't have all that much else to worry about.


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