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-   -   Don't need Umberger (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=227767)

TheKingPin 03-06-2006 03:55 PM

Don't need Umberger
 
I dont understand why everyone is so high on Umberger. I think he has great work ethic and has some potential but look at his goals; they are all thow the puck near the crease and it deflects in. With the Flyers having so much young talent we are going to have to trade or let go of someone down the road anyway, may as well do it now while he is a youg prospect with good upside and not risk him geing a bust. Trade for Jokinen and then sign him in the offseason for 3 million next year and 5 for the next few (once Forsbergs leaves).

FlyersFanJS 03-06-2006 03:57 PM

umberger isn't a "top-level" prospect, but i think most people (myself included) wouldn't mind seeing him go for doan or jokinen just not a guy like tkachuk or recchi who is going to retire very soon

JXC 03-06-2006 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyersFanJS
umberger isn't a "top-level" prospect, but i think most people (myself included) wouldn't mind seeing him go for doan or jokinen just not a guy like tkachuk or recchi who is going to retire very soon

Dittoes.

Winston Wolf 03-06-2006 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyersphan
I dont understand why everyone is so high on Umberger. I think he has great work ethic and has some potential but look at his goals; they are all thow the puck near the crease and it deflects in. With the Flyers having so much young talent we are going to have to trade or let go of someone down the road anyway, may as well do it now while he is a youg prospect with good upside and not risk him geing a bust. Trade for Jokinen and then sign him in the offseason for 3 million next year and 5 for the next few (once Forsbergs leaves).

There is so much wrong with this. Those are pretty ridiculous reasons to trade Umberger. Nobody has enough young talent that they have to trade or let go of a potential top six forward. Even if he does "bust" (your words) he's still an NHL player. I think Umberger is an extremely safe prospect who doesn't have extremely high potential, but he'll always be solid enough to play on the third/fourth line by chance that he doesn't realize his full potential.

Also, Olli Jokinen ain't signing with nobody for three million next year. More like six, maybe more if he goes to the highest bidder.

RJ8812 03-06-2006 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winston Wolf
There is so much wrong with this. Those are pretty ridiculous reasons to trade Umberger. Nobody has enough young talent that they have to trade or let go of a potential top six forward. Even if he does "bust" (your words) he's still an NHL player. I think Umberger is an extremely safe prospect who doesn't have extremely high potential, but he'll always be solid enough to play on the third/fourth line by chance that he doesn't realize his full potential.

Also, Olli Jokinen ain't signing with nobody for three million next year. More like six, maybe more if he goes to the highest bidder.


he's not worth 6 mil

Philly Flyer Fan* 03-06-2006 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Flyers_
he's not worth 6 mil


If Foppa leaves, I'd gladly give Jokinen 6 million

Roger's Pancreas* 03-06-2006 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyersphan
I dont understand why everyone is so high on Umberger. I think he has great work ethic and has some potential but look at his goals; they are all thow the puck near the crease and it deflects in. With the Flyers having so much young talent we are going to have to trade or let go of someone down the road anyway, may as well do it now while he is a youg prospect with good upside and not risk him geing a bust. Trade for Jokinen and then sign him in the offseason for 3 million next year and 5 for the next few (once Forsbergs leaves).

He's not going to be a top level player but has shown that he has more than enough tools to make up for it. He's a well conditioned athlete with a good work ehtic, he's cheap, incredibly versatile, and defensively responsible; that combination is pretty rare for a rookie. Don't take for granted what he may be able to provide during the playoffs in a couple of years.

More importantly, don't get into the pre-cba mindset where trades are the solution. They're not. It's now more important to hold onto the young players and wait for them to mature both mentally and physically. They have to learn to lose before they can really understand how much has to be invested in order to win.

Roger's Pancreas* 03-06-2006 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philly Flyer Fan
If Foppa leaves, I'd gladly give Jokinen 6 million

Mike Millbury is that you?

fism 03-06-2006 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Panasonic Youth
Mike Millbury is that you?


:biglaugh:

swflyers8* 03-06-2006 09:21 PM

Nice goal tonight by RJ.

TheKingPin 03-06-2006 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Panasonic Youth
He's not going to be a top level player but has shown that he has more than enough tools to make up for it. He's a well conditioned athlete with a good work ehtic, he's cheap, incredibly versatile, and defensively responsible; that combination is pretty rare for a rookie. Don't take for granted what he may be able to provide during the playoffs in a couple of years.

More importantly, don't get into the pre-cba mindset where trades are the solution. They're not. It's now more important to hold onto the young players and wait for them to mature both mentally and physically. They have to learn to lose before they can really understand how much has to be invested in order to win.

I completely agree that young talent is imporatant to have for cap reasons. But we already have enough rookies in our current line up with some big names in the system. They can play the role of cheap minimum player with skills. But htye arnt gonna be able to keep them all so we need to unload now. Jokinen is worth that...once Foppa is gone he will be great.


And for whomever said that Jokinen wont sign for less than 6 million. Hemight sign a deal where he gets 3 million the first year and then 5 to 6 for the next four. Its called back logging contracts to fit the mold of the team the NFL does(used to do) that all the time. And that first year for 3 million will be with a team that has CRAZY talent if Jokenin was included so I think he wouldnt be too put off by that offer.

goodrev 03-06-2006 09:56 PM

you say umberger has shown nothing special besides his work ethic and is a low talent hack... whats carters excuse?? he is supposed to be a top 20 prospect in all of hockey and here he is being mediocre at best, they say how great his shot is but all i see him do is take horrific shots from bad angles directly into goalies stomach's. Honestly you can not judge a young prospect like umberger and carter on their performance this year, they both lit up the AHL and both of them are going to be good-above average offensive players in the NHL so i really would like to see the flyers keep both of them. I mean cmon, its not like we are talking about radio who might as well not have a stick in the offensive zone

as for you being dissapointed with umberger... i can give you a list of players i am dissapointed with Carter, Kapanen (been awful), Rathje, Savage...., Savage, Savage, Radio, Stevenson... i mean all these guys have been huge dissapointments... i think that when you have young talent like Umberger, Carter and Richards on the ice and they outplay Kapanen, Savage and company and still get less ice time it drives me nuts... if any of those 3 were put on a line with anyone other than the aforementioned names they would be much better and have much better numbers. Yes Umbergers goals are garbage goals, but he has never been renouned for his shot, he is known for his ice vision and playmaking ability, at least at the lower levels.

Winston Wolf 03-06-2006 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyersphan
And for whomever said that Jokinen wont sign for less than 6 million. Hemight sign a deal where he gets 3 million the first year and then 5 to 6 for the next four. Its called back logging contracts to fit the mold of the team the NFL does(used to do) that all the time. And that first year for 3 million will be with a team that has CRAZY talent if Jokenin was included so I think he wouldnt be too put off by that offer.

What are you talking about? You can't frontload contracts, the cap hit is the same every year of a contract.

Pantokrator 03-06-2006 10:06 PM

I wouldn't mind trading Umberger if in return the Flyers got a decent player who was not about to become a UFA. My problem is trading a player like Umberger for a player who is only going to be a rental, or a player who is old and does not have much future.

FlyersHomer DM03 03-06-2006 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pantokrator
I wouldn't mind trading Umberger if in return the Flyers got a decent player who was not about to become a UFA. My problem is trading a player like Umberger for a player who is only going to be a rental, or a player who is old and does not have much future.

any trade for tkachuk would anger me, even if st louis pays us to take him...almost the same thing goes for mark recchi

FlyersFanJS 03-06-2006 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pantokrator
I wouldn't mind trading Umberger if in return the Flyers got a decent player who was not about to become a UFA. My problem is trading a player like Umberger for a player who is only going to be a rental, or a player who is old and does not have much future.

exactly

TheKingPin 03-06-2006 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winston Wolf
What are you talking about? You can't frontload contracts, the cap hit is the same every year of a contract.

Its backloaded. But anyway what i was saying was when Foppa leaves Jokinen can have his money. In one year.

Also I dont think that trading Carter is a good idea because he is good, younger than Umberger and bigger stronger, better moves , harder shot, etc etc. Not his fault he is on the Fourth line.

Kapanen has a had a great year considering his injuries

I like Umberger, not disapointed but other team also like him that is why we can trade him and not trade a guy like Savage. Trust me if we get Jokinen for him then you will not remember him in a few years.

TheKingPin 03-06-2006 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pantokrator
I wouldn't mind trading Umberger if in return the Flyers got a decent player who was not about to become a UFA. My problem is trading a player like Umberger for a player who is only going to be a rental, or a player who is old and does not have much future.

Yeah I agree if Jokinen is not going to be a top priority to sign after the deal then its a no go anyway. But Jokinen is damn good and can be a franchise player if we get him under contract.

Winston Wolf 03-06-2006 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyersphan
Its backloaded. But anyway what i was saying was when Foppa leaves Jokinen can have his money. In one year.

You're right, that would be backloading which still is no longer an option with the new CBA. I agree with you though, I would love to get Jokinen and would have no problem sending Umberger back the other way. Unfortunately for us, Jokinen's payday will be after this year, not in another year when we would be able to realistically afford him.

Roger's Pancreas* 03-06-2006 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyersphan
Yeah I agree if Jokinen is not going to be a top priority to sign after the deal then its a no go anyway. But Jokinen is damn good and can be a franchise player if we get him under contract.

Gagne's proven to be our franchise player tonight. He works so hard and has improved every single aspect of his game, including his defensive play if that was possible. Give Gagne the big money, long-term contract that he's been looking for so long and prove that if you stick with the team you'll be rewarded. Bringing in Jokinen is just going to make it tight to resign some key RFA which doesn't send a good message for the young players. They need to konw that this team looks out for it's own. There needs to be an increased sense of comrodery in the lockerroom, and bringing in some FA who is going to put the squeeze on them isn't a good idea.

TheKingPin 03-06-2006 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Panasonic Youth
Gagne's proven to be our franchise player tonight. He works so hard and has improved every single aspect of his game, including his defensive play if that was possible. Give Gagne the big money, long-term contract that he's been looking for so long and prove that if you stick with the team you'll be rewarded. Bringing in Jokinen is just going to make it tight to resign some key RFA which doesn't send a good message for the young players. They need to konw that this team looks out for it's own. There needs to be an increased sense of comrodery in the lockerroom, and bringing in some FA who is going to put the squeeze on them isn't a good idea.

I agree but the word out there is that the cap is going higher. Plus the NHL is growing and the revenue sharing will allow more growth even later. But yea bo doubt Gagne is going to get offerd, forget request, a lot of money though. What I really like about him is his defenceive play. He will go in on a breakaway and come back to help out...that is huge with the run and gun of the new NHL.

mikedifr 03-06-2006 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winston Wolf
There is so much wrong with this. Those are pretty ridiculous reasons to trade Umberger. Nobody has enough young talent that they have to trade or let go of a potential top six forward. Even if he does "bust" (your words) he's still an NHL player. I think Umberger is an extremely safe prospect who doesn't have extremely high potential, but he'll always be solid enough to play on the third/fourth line by chance that he doesn't realize his full potential.

Also, Olli Jokinen ain't signing with nobody for three million next year. More like six, maybe more if he goes to the highest bidder.

Agreed. I dont want to trade Umberger. I think he has more potential then people give him credit for. He played great in the AHL last year and I believe he has shown some good growth so far this year. My main reason for not trading him is I belive he has shown some great chemistry with Carter and I want to keep those two together and get them a great playmaking RW to play with them. Just because he doesnt have the potential of Carter and Richards, which I dont agree with entirely, doesnt mean we should trade him. Teams need to be built and players need to grow together like Detroit did, like Tampa did, etc. Enough of trading the young guys for a quick fix. That has gotten us NOWHERE!

panayiotis 03-07-2006 02:38 AM

so wrong
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyersphan
I dont understand why everyone is so high on Umberger. I think he has great work ethic and has some potential but look at his goals; they are all thow the puck near the crease and it deflects in. With the Flyers having so much young talent we are going to have to trade or let go of someone down the road anyway, may as well do it now while he is a youg prospect with good upside and not risk him geing a bust. Trade for Jokinen and then sign him in the offseason for 3 million next year and 5 for the next few (once Forsbergs leaves).

What young talent....R.J. Will only get better at the fraction of the cost..You need to watch the game.... :teach:

bobbyboucher24 03-07-2006 04:56 AM

San Felipo (sp?) of the Delco Times was on Macnow last night. Claims he is hearing that the re-acquisition of Recchi is imminent. Said he is hearing Recchi and Ryan Malone for Umberger.

goodrev 03-07-2006 07:18 AM

that would seriously bother me, i wouldnt give anythign above picks up for recchi period... he isnt worth anything more than that at his age and his salary... its allready bothering me and it hasnt even happened


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