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Hemsky4PM 10-26-2003 11:56 AM

Bad Spending by Oilers
 
So far this year certain players have been far less than good in terms of bang for the buck:

Isbister: $1.925M US, no points
Brewer: Whopping $2.5M US (I want Janne back)
Dvorak: $2M US, no goals
Salo: $3.9M US, highest payed on the team, hasn't "won" a game for us.

That is approximately 1/3 or our entire payroll for 4 guys that are playing well below their potential. Why is Lowe such a great GM? If not for the underpaid guys like Reasoner, Torres, Staios and Hemsky this team would be absolutely sunk!

TheBrew 10-26-2003 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hemsky4PM
So far this year certain players have been far less than good in terms of bang for the buck:

Isbister: $1.925M US, no points
Brewer: Whopping $2.5M US (I want Janne back)
Dvorak: $2M US, no goals
Salo: $3.9M US, highest payed on the team, hasn't "won" a game for us.

That is approximately 1/3 or our entire payroll for 4 guys that are playing well below their potential. Why is Lowe such a great GM? If not for the underpaid guys like Reasoner, Torres, Staios and Hemsky this team would be absolutely sunk!

Although its's only 8 games into the season i think there is some reason to be concerned Dvorak imo will turn it around and can easily score 25 goals this season.

Hemsky4PM 10-26-2003 12:07 PM

Dvorak had to score to be worth the $2M. I'm just pointing out the fact that he hasn't. He's played the most consistently of the four mentioned, but still not well enough (or productively enough) to justify his contract...yet.

ZIM 10-26-2003 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hemsky4PM
Salo: $3.9M US, highest payed on the team, hasn't "won" a game for us.

Why is Lowe such a great GM? If not for the underpaid guys like Reasoner, Torres, Staios and Hemsky this team would be absolutely sunk!

and there sits Tommy Salo 53rd in the league with a save percentage of .856.

and of course 1.95M sits in the PB.

Come on Brynster, let's get rid of these guys and make some real money.

FacelessButcher 10-26-2003 12:20 PM

I know we expected more out of Isbister when we traded for him but lets face it Lowe knew he was a project, u got to give him more time I did not think he would fly over and score 30goals and be a powerhouse his first year here he'll come around slowly(power forwards always develop slowly :( ) probably 15goals and 20 assists which I still think is very feasible in a young season,then hopefully comeback with a vengeance the next season. Dvorak has been playing well just snake bitten reminds me of when York first came over but he is trying hard and doing the little things to be succesful and help the team.

Brewer- u jerk just play like we know u can :madfire:
Salo- nothing better sums it up than this :cry: :cry: :cry:

jadeddog 10-26-2003 12:50 PM

are we *already* in next-year-country concerning isbister? this is a shame, though i dont think that we should all be so surprised.... isbister hasnt dont anything in the NHL to make anybody believe he is any better than just another kilger or 100 other big men that never fullfilled their billing as a power forward..... imo, lowe was trying to hit a home run with isbister, hoping that playing at home would cause him to change his play and be more effective.... i guess we cant blame lowe for trying..... and the niinima trade still might swing our way depending on how torres turns out

windowlicker 10-26-2003 01:06 PM

As much as i like Torres, Niinimaa should be here this year. Its really becoming apparent how much we need him (or someone like him)

hmminvisiblecola1279 10-26-2003 01:13 PM

my only beef is how did isbister get a 1.9m contract? obviously he has a good agent because he certainly did not deserve it. potential should not translate into big dollars.

FacelessButcher 10-26-2003 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hmminvisiblecola
my only beef is how did isbister get a 1.9m contract? obviously he has a good agent because he certainly did not deserve it. potential should not translate into big dollars.

I think Lowe just offered him a qualifying offer (10% raise) and Isbister just took it, I don't think Lowe could of risked not giving him a qualifying offer and try to re-negotiate at a lower level, he could of lost him for nothing which would hurt real bad since Ninimaa was such a big part of the team.

OYLer 10-26-2003 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by omar
Come on Brynster, let's get rid of these guys and make some real money.

I am relatively new to these boards so omar you are saying that Hemsky4PM also posts as Brynster. Who else posts with alter egos here at HF? :rolleyes: not that I haven't done the same on other boards until I settled on the OYLer moniker. ;)

Mr Sakich 10-26-2003 01:39 PM

the reason those guys make 2.0 mill or close to it is because they have been in the league for more than 5 years. Their salary goes up every year. For lowe to have a team of 1 mill players, you have no decent vets or all kids. Lets remember that the avg salary is 1.8 mill so paying a guy 1.9-2.1 mill is just an average salary. IMO, devo, brewer are better than avg. Izzy is potentially much better than avg.

As for salo's 3.9 mill, someone should figure out what the average salary of a starter is.

hmminvisiblecola1279 10-26-2003 01:44 PM

thanks for the clarification there guys, it just still irks me to see the oilers waste money on a guy who has not played up to his potential and somehow playing here in edmonton is not getting him out of his funk. waste of money salos contract as well, good luck trying to get rid of that.

Hemsky4PM 10-26-2003 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Sakich
the reason those guys make 2.0 mill or close to it is because they have been in the league for more than 5 years. Their salary goes up every year. For lowe to have a team of 1 mill players, you have no decent vets or all kids. Lets remember that the avg salary is 1.8 mill so paying a guy 1.9-2.1 mill is just an average salary. IMO, devo, brewer are better than avg. Izzy is potentially much better than avg.

As for salo's 3.9 mill, someone should figure out what the average salary of a starter is.

I have a real problem with siting "average" salaries. Let's remember that the extremes on the high end: 7M-10M per season, skew the average more than the lower end salaries, 700K or so. So the "average salary" does not mean the "average player". In my opinion the average player is worth about 1.2M bucks, not 1.925M, which Izzy is getting.

The primary point of the original post was to point out that we are spending 1/3 of the ENTIRE payroll on 4 underachievers. That is not a good thing.

As far as Salo goes, he is paid right near the middle in terms of starting goalies, but HAS not been worth even that. Here are some numbers that other starters, who are performing better than Tommy, make:

Tomas Vokoun- $1.2M
Chechmanek- $3M
Denis-$1.55M
Lalime-$2.755M
Luongo-$1.9M
Osgood-$3M
Potvin-$1.3M (we could have signed him for that!)
Thibault-$3.1M
Turco-$3.648M

IN FACT there are only TEN goaltenders in the entire NHL (according to nhlpa.com) making more than Salo. Brodeur, Joseph, Hasek, Turek, Burke, Kolzig, Khabibulin, Giguere, Theodore and Belfour.

SO Salo is at the very top of the middle third of goaltenders in terms of salary. He has two club option years at the end of it for $4M per season. The way he's playing there is absolutely zero chance the team will pick it up. So he is basically a UFA as of next summer. Maybe he'd stay here for way less money, like 2.5M or so. Or he could be so insulted that he bolts to anywhere for any amount of dough. The way he's been compensated the last 3 seasons he will not want for money.

This presents an even bigger question. Is Salo even tradeble??? What team would take on salary AND downgrade their situation? The only hope is that a team like Washington sends Kolzig to Colorado, and the Oilers somehow get invovled sending Salo to the Crapitals. Washington would save money in the deal (over $2M bucks). Of course, what would Colorado give Edmonton (thus the deal is a non-starter).

I don't know about anyone else, but I'd rather have the Oil pick up a guy like Hurme at a little over $1M per year and spend the extra dough (if Salo can be moved) on some defensive help, a top 3 guy to replace Niinimaa. Perhaps Tommy could be packaged with Comrie somehow to net a bigger return.

Is this team being managed well financially? Thoughts?

creative giant* 10-26-2003 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hemsky4PM
I have a real problem with siting "average" salaries. Let's remember that the extremes on the high end: 7M-10M per season, skew the average more than the lower end salaries, 700K or so. So the "average salary" does not mean the "average player". In my opinion the average player is worth about 1.2M bucks, not 1.925M, which Izzy is getting.

The only problem with that kind of thinking is that there are so few players who make between 7-10 million per year in the grand scheme of things, and so many more who make the lower end salaries (less than a million), that you can generally assume the extremes cancel out.

Hemsky4PM 10-26-2003 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creative giant
The only problem with that kind of thinking is that there are so few players who make between 7-10 million per year in the grand scheme of things, and so many more who make the lower end salaries (less than a million), that you can generally assume the extremes cancel out.

I was waiting for that one. Where's the certified statistician when you need him? It's not scientific to say "you can generally assume the extremes cancel out".

I will give my answer according to my limited knowledge of statistics. Cancelling out when talking about the average is not very scientific. In fact, taking the average at all is pretty useless. The average, or mean, is less significant than the median. So I ask, what is the median salary in the NHL??? In other words what salary is exactly in the middle. If there are 690 players what does the 345th highest/lowest paid guy make. That number is a far better indicator of what the average player is worth than taking the mean (or average) salary. If the median is above 1.81M (the current "average") than the lower salaries must be bringing down the mean calculation. If the median is below 1.81M than the higher salaries are dragging the mean up. If it's around 1.81M then it's a wash and I'll agree that the average player is worth 1.81M in the NHL today. I would suspect that the higher salaries drag it up, otherwise the agents and PA would use median (as it would be the higher number) in their negotiations, those greedy lawyers! For fun sake, I'll go to the PA site and see what the median is, might be interesting (maybe not that fun though).

Hemsky4PM 10-26-2003 03:59 PM

Working backwards from the highest paid player, the 345th highest/lowest paid player makes 1.35M US. Therefore, in my opinion, the AVERAGE player is worth about that much, give or take. NOT the gross 1.81M US the NHLPA uses as the "average salary", which is not very scientific or practical, but certainly beefs up the already rich athletes bank accounts. THE HIGHER SALARIES ARE DRAGGING UP THE MEAN. The prospect that the salaries at the extremes "cancel each other out" appears dimmer now I think.

Oiltown16 10-26-2003 04:47 PM

Salo has had no support at all this year...I've watched and on almost every goal scored he has had no chance

very sloppy D

HOZ 10-26-2003 05:29 PM

Every single one of those players can turn things around. It is only game 8 not 80.

Salo's performance is tough to swallow though. And so will his contract.

Hemsky4PM 10-27-2003 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HOZ
Every single one of those players can turn things around. It is only game 8 not 80.

Salo's performance is tough to swallow though. And so will his contract.

It may be game eight, but Salo has not performed like we suspect he can for longer than that. Since last year, when his sv% was .899, near the bottom for starters and well below his usual .905-.910 range.

I agree that our defense is weak. I would like to see Comrie moved for a servicable center and a good no 3 or 4 defenseman (maybe I'm dreaming in technicolor). All I'm saying is that there are a lot of goalies out there that can be mediocre, but many (like Hurme at 1.1M) come WAY cheaper than Salo. Just look at the difference, 2.8M bucks, that could have been Janne Niinimaa!!! Wouldn't this team look better with Janne (or a comparable d-man) here, and with a younger,cheaper, but no less talented goalie???

Dale 10-27-2003 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hmminvisiblecola
my only beef is how did isbister get a 1.9m contract? obviously he has a good agent because he certainly did not deserve it. potential should not translate into big dollars.

It sure did in Brewer's contract with Lowe.

Dale 10-27-2003 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hemsky4PM
I have a real problem with siting "average" salaries. Let's remember that the extremes on the high end: 7M-10M per season, skew the average more than the lower end salaries, 700K or so. So the "average salary" does not mean the "average player". In my opinion the average player is worth about 1.2M bucks, not 1.925M, which Izzy is getting.

The primary point of the original post was to point out that we are spending 1/3 of the ENTIRE payroll on 4 underachievers. That is not a good thing.

As far as Salo goes, he is paid right near the middle in terms of starting goalies, but HAS not been worth even that. Here are some numbers that other starters, who are performing better than Tommy, make:

Tomas Vokoun- $1.2M
Chechmanek- $3M
Denis-$1.55M
Lalime-$2.755M
Luongo-$1.9M
Osgood-$3M
Potvin-$1.3M (we could have signed him for that!)
Thibault-$3.1M
Turco-$3.648M

IN FACT there are only TEN goaltenders in the entire NHL (according to nhlpa.com) making more than Salo. Brodeur, Joseph, Hasek, Turek, Burke, Kolzig, Khabibulin, Giguere, Theodore and Belfour.

SO Salo is at the very top of the middle third of goaltenders in terms of salary. He has two club option years at the end of it for $4M per season. The way he's playing there is absolutely zero chance the team will pick it up. So he is basically a UFA as of next summer. Maybe he'd stay here for way less money, like 2.5M or so. Or he could be so insulted that he bolts to anywhere for any amount of dough. The way he's been compensated the last 3 seasons he will not want for money.

This presents an even bigger question. Is Salo even tradeble??? What team would take on salary AND downgrade their situation? The only hope is that a team like Washington sends Kolzig to Colorado, and the Oilers somehow get invovled sending Salo to the Crapitals. Washington would save money in the deal (over $2M bucks). Of course, what would Colorado give Edmonton (thus the deal is a non-starter).

I don't know about anyone else, but I'd rather have the Oil pick up a guy like Hurme at a little over $1M per year and spend the extra dough (if Salo can be moved) on some defensive help, a top 3 guy to replace Niinimaa. Perhaps Tommy could be packaged with Comrie somehow to net a bigger return.

Is this team being managed well financially? Thoughts?

Good points. 1-1.4 million equates to the average "average" player unless you're a Ranger.

creative giant* 10-27-2003 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hemsky4PM
Working backwards from the highest paid player, the 345th highest/lowest paid player makes 1.35M US. Therefore, in my opinion, the AVERAGE player is worth about that much, give or take. NOT the gross 1.81M US the NHLPA uses as the "average salary", which is not very scientific or practical, but certainly beefs up the already rich athletes bank accounts. THE HIGHER SALARIES ARE DRAGGING UP THE MEAN. The prospect that the salaries at the extremes "cancel each other out" appears dimmer now I think.

You're right. I expected, in a population as large as the nhl, the mean and median to be about the same, but they are almost half a million dollars apart. This means either there are more players making the top-end dollars, or the players making the high extreme are at a greater difference to the median than the ones at the low extreme. Good stuff man, next step, present this tidbit of info to the GM's of the league

kyle 10-27-2003 03:21 PM

Okay, here is about 15 minutes of work for you guys:

These figures are from NHLPA.COM

Average Salary for a starting NHL goaltender: $3.29992 million/season

Anaheim: JS Giguere $4.5
Atlanta: B Dafoe $3.5
Boston: F Potvin $1.3
Buffalo: M Biron $2.2
Calgary: R Turek $4.25
Carolina: K Weekes $2.35
Columbus: M Denis $1.55
Colorado: D Aebischer $0.55
Dallas: M Turco $3.65
Detroit: D Hasek $8.0
Edmonton: T Salo $3.9
Florida: R Luongo $1.9
Los Angeles: R Cechmanek $3.0
Minnesota: D Roloson/M Fernandez $2.2
Montreal: J Theodore $5.5
Nashville: T Vokoun $1.2
New Jersey: M Brodeur $6.7
New York Islanders: G Snow $1.313
New York Rangers: M Dunham $3.3
Ottawa: P Lalime $2.575
Phoenix: S Burke $4.5
Philadelphia: J Hackett $3.6
Pittsburgh: S Caron $0.65
San Jose: E Nabokov $3.625
St. Louis: C Osgood $3.0
Tampa Bay: N Khabibulin $4.4346
Toronto: E Belfour $7.0
Vancouver: D Cloutier $2.5
Washington: O Kolzig $6.25

Total Amount Spent on Starting Goalies in NHL: $98.9976/season

Burke's Evil Spirit 10-27-2003 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hemsky4PM
Isbister: $1.925M US, no points
Brewer: Whopping $2.5M US (I want Janne back)
Dvorak: $2M US, no goals
Salo: $3.9M US, highest payed on the team, hasn't "won" a game for us.

You may as well add Laraque at $1.275 million, Moreau at $1.5 million, and Jason Smith at a whopping $2.3 million. This is money that a franchise like Edmonton should not be spending.

Although I don't think Brewer is particularly overpaid. He needs a solid veteran to help him out...Staios kind of is, but it'd be nice if there was someone better in town.

Cawz 10-27-2003 03:54 PM

I cant believe you people wishing for Niinimaa to come back. He was the one who would throw it up the middle to be intercepted. He was the one on the point when the puck would bounce over his stick on the pp. He was the one who would be sliding to block the 2 on 1 pass and the puck would go in off his butt. He was a good assister, thats it. If he was still on our payroll, we would be complaing about the money we are paying him.

We are still ahead of last year - we were 2-4-2 after 8 games in 2002. Salo is playing bad but his defence is playing horrible. We need a top 2 defenceman that is underpaid, still improving his game, a good hitter, shooter and is expendable enough to be traded for a holdout that is quickly gaining a bad reputation. If it was that simple, it would be done by now.

I think we should be mentally prepared for Comrie to sit the entire season. Which GM would want to be the guy that gave up a good player for a holdout. Its very risky and it's seeming more and more every day that no one wants to take that risk.

Nobody is going to take Salo with his salary and stats. Mabye he will take a pay cut next year or whenever hockey is on again but he is here for the year. His stats aren't an indication though. I have never seen such bad defence from this team.

Thats my opinions. Offence streaky, powerplay embassasing, defence abysmal, Salo dissapointing, heart questionable, hope fading since we were up 3-0 to STL. I swear to God we were going to run the tables at that point.


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